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  • FIRST POST
    • GlassGiraffe
    • By GlassGiraffe 6th Nov 17, 7:09 PM
    • 7Posts
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    GlassGiraffe
    My contactless card was obviously used fraudulently.
    • #1
    • 6th Nov 17, 7:09 PM
    My contactless card was obviously used fraudulently. 6th Nov 17 at 7:09 PM
    Today I noticed that in June of this year (I know this is a long time ago) five transactions were made with my contactless card in unfamiliar establishments in unfamiliar parts of London, potentially on one night. The card was cancelled the next day, however my claim was denied because it 'did not match fraudulent criteria'.

    I didn't check my statements at the time, as I had so much going on with work and life. I'm organising my finances now things have quieted down and I'll be submitting my self assessment soon.

    The advisor I spoke to repeatedly asked me to confirm details that I had not given him, details which I believe would have invalidated my claim. When I reasserted my statements and told him I was concerned he was trying to lead me into contradicting my recollection of events he actually told me that he was offended, and that he was just trying to do his job. .

    We basically spoke for over an hour in which he relentlessly tried to make me time and date events which would have ended my claim, even asking several times If I'd adequately destroyed and disposed of the card we had already established that I had either lost or been 'relived of'.
    Is there anyway I can appeal or elevate the claim?

    Frankly I'd even be interested in filing a complaint, I understand that some people have to deal with distressed individuals in exasperating situations but my 'advisor' was really quite volatile. At one point I had to asked him to return to a more formal tone, as he was practically hissing at me.

    And I just can't see where my logic was compromised, or how anyone could view these transactions as usual given the information.

    The Bank is Lloyds.
    Any advice would be very appreciated.
Page 1
    • Moneyineptitude
    • By Moneyineptitude 6th Nov 17, 8:11 PM
    • 18,898 Posts
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    Moneyineptitude
    • #2
    • 6th Nov 17, 8:11 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Nov 17, 8:11 PM
    If the card was "obviously" used fraudulently, then it should be a simple matter to prove it to the Bank. Are you saying the card was not in your possession or are you alleging that it was somehow used for sales that you had no way of making?

    No point complaining about the manner in which you were interviewed..

    Complaining five months after the event severely hampers your case too...
    • GlassGiraffe
    • By GlassGiraffe 6th Nov 17, 9:53 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    GlassGiraffe
    • #3
    • 6th Nov 17, 9:53 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Nov 17, 9:53 PM
    Hello Money, thank you for your input!

    I don't have an Alibi, it was physically possible for me to make the purchases which I believe to be fraudulent. I think it's fair to say that these transactions are 'obviously' fraudulent based on the nature of the transactions and the location of the transactions.

    They were:

    All contactless.
    All on the same night.
    All in an area that is not my home and that I have never visited.
    All at stores which, according to companies house, predominantly sell alcohol and tobacco products.
    Three are consecutive purchases, under £30, in the same store.
    All transactions on the date I reported my card missing or stolen, with the exception of two, which may have had longer processing times (The agent knew the individual processing times but would not tell me).

    And in regards to me complaining, you are totally right. However, fraud protection is a service my bank provides. The representative I spoke to was emotional and combative, despite me being calm. If I'd lost thousands, I don't think I would have been able to maintain my composure, and I think that's an intended strategy.

    There is no excuse for noticing the transactions so late, I missed them.
    This telephone call took place half an hour before my post.
    • -taff
    • By -taff 6th Nov 17, 10:12 PM
    • 7,169 Posts
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    -taff
    • #4
    • 6th Nov 17, 10:12 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Nov 17, 10:12 PM
    If you've only just noticed the fraudulent transactions, why was the card cancelled the day after and not followed up on?
    Or did you cancel it before speaking to the advisor?
    • GlassGiraffe
    • By GlassGiraffe 6th Nov 17, 10:21 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    GlassGiraffe
    • #5
    • 6th Nov 17, 10:21 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Nov 17, 10:21 PM
    Hello Taff,

    I cancelled it because I needed a new one, because It was gone. I didn't follow it up (as in monitor and check my statements soon after) simply because I'm stupid. I cancelled it five months ago, so five months before speaking to the advisor. I'm working through my statements now as I use the CSV's to form my self assessment tax calculations, it was today I reached June's statement and the transactions I believe to be fraudulent.
    • TrickyDicky101
    • By TrickyDicky101 7th Nov 17, 9:19 AM
    • 2,827 Posts
    • 1,829 Thanks
    TrickyDicky101
    • #6
    • 7th Nov 17, 9:19 AM
    • #6
    • 7th Nov 17, 9:19 AM
    You are fortunate in that the total value is presumably no more than £150 due to the transactions being contactless?

    I agree with the other posters (and you yourself) that 5 months is a very long time, however, I don't agree that the 'adviser's' conduct should be disregarded. No reason why professionalism shouldn't be maintained at all times.

    I would go back to the bank and make it clear you wish to make an official complaint based on their refusal to refund the fraudulent transactions and the adviser's conduct. Make it clear you intend referring the matter to the FOS if they don't resolve in your favour.

    Note I think getting a refund for the fraudulent transactions would be unlikely as let's face it, they're not that unusual (and presumably you live in London or are there regularly?) and you don't know where your card was at the time and hadn't reported it lost or stolen.

    However, for such a low amount, and to avoid the FOS getting involved, the bank is likely to reimburse you.
    • Moneyineptitude
    • By Moneyineptitude 7th Nov 17, 10:34 AM
    • 18,898 Posts
    • 10,120 Thanks
    Moneyineptitude
    • #7
    • 7th Nov 17, 10:34 AM
    • #7
    • 7th Nov 17, 10:34 AM
    I would go back to the bank and make it clear you wish to make an official complaint based on their refusal to refund the fraudulent transactions and the adviser's conduct.
    Originally posted by TrickyDicky101
    I'm certain the Bank will have a recording of the call and will investigate any complaint that the telephone adviser was "volatile" "emotional" and "combative" and they may well refund as a gesture of goodwill, but I don't agree threatening them with FOS would be productive.
    • TrickyDicky101
    • By TrickyDicky101 7th Nov 17, 10:41 AM
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    TrickyDicky101
    • #8
    • 7th Nov 17, 10:41 AM
    • #8
    • 7th Nov 17, 10:41 AM
    I'm certain the Bank will have a recording of the call and will investigate any complaint that the telephone adviser was "volatile" "emotional" and "combative" and they may well refund as a gesture of goodwill, but I don't agree threatening them with FOS would be productive.
    Originally posted by Moneyineptitude
    It increases the likelihood that the bank will settle the matter if they think the OP is likely to follow through with a referral if for no other reason than to make OP go away.

    The morals of raising a complaint and indicating a FOS referral are debatable - but it is the OP's right and is the most likely way to get the money back.
    • Moneyineptitude
    • By Moneyineptitude 7th Nov 17, 10:53 AM
    • 18,898 Posts
    • 10,120 Thanks
    Moneyineptitude
    • #9
    • 7th Nov 17, 10:53 AM
    • #9
    • 7th Nov 17, 10:53 AM
    The morals of raising a complaint and indicating a FOS referral are debatable - but it is the OP's right and is the most likely way to get the money back.
    Originally posted by TrickyDicky101
    I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Nothing to stop the OP from referring his complaint to the Ombudsman if it is not upheld, but I prefer a polite initial complaint to a threatening one.
    • TrickyDicky101
    • By TrickyDicky101 7th Nov 17, 11:04 AM
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    TrickyDicky101
    Being firm as to outcome (ie likely referral) does not necessarily mean being 'threatening' and I wholeheartedly agree to keeping everything extremely polite.
    • GlassGiraffe
    • By GlassGiraffe 7th Nov 17, 11:18 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    GlassGiraffe
    Thanks Tricky,

    This is really good advice, I've phoned the bank back and I will soon have another round with the fraud department. I'll gather as much supporting evidence until then, if I'm denied again, I may well just live with it. But if the call isn't handled professionally, or a reasonable explanation is not given, I'll contact the FOS.

    You are correct in that, the total value was around £103. I'm fortunate, this could have been much worse.

    Although I have no significant debt, I'm freelance, so during demanding work period I often neglect the personal admin this would fall under. Of course that is no excuse, if anything I should be more vigilant. I can be reckless about finance in general and it's something I'd like to become more mindful of.

    I do however, consider the nature of the purchases to be characteristic of somebody coming across a functioning contactless card, taking it back to their borough and using it at their local off-licence(s) until the transactions were no longer authorised or suspicion was aroused. The card was reported stolen as soon as I realised it was missing, at 7:56 the following morning, £103 was spent in off-licences during the night.

    I can also form a narrative in which somebody might do this with their own card, to the extent it might be usual behaviour for such a character, but that narrative is in no way supported by my purchasing habits which were very much under scrutiny during my claim. I do live in London, but these are local off licences far from my home. It's a long way to go shopping and it's no place to drink.

    I'll keep you updated if you are interested.

    Thanks
    Samuel
    • Moneyineptitude
    • By Moneyineptitude 7th Nov 17, 11:26 AM
    • 18,898 Posts
    • 10,120 Thanks
    Moneyineptitude
    I do however, consider the nature of the purchases to be characteristic of somebody coming across a functioning contactless card, taking it back to their borough and using it at their local off-licence(s) until the transactions were no longer authorised or suspicion was aroused. The card was reported stolen as soon as I realised it was missing, at 7:56 the following morning, £103 was spent in off-licences during the night.
    Originally posted by GlassGiraffe
    Do realise that there is another side to this coin. The Bank has to be convinced that you didn't make these purchases yourself and then report the card stolen/lost to avoid paying. However unlikely that may seem to you, it goes some way to explaining why the Bank's fraud department did not simply accept what you said and issue a refund. With this in mind, perhaps it would be better to send a well written appeal to the Bank rather than go another "round"?
    • GlassGiraffe
    • By GlassGiraffe 7th Nov 17, 2:56 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    GlassGiraffe
    I can also form a narrative in which somebody might do this with their own card, to the extent it might be usual behaviour for such a character, but that narrative is in no way supported by my purchasing habits which were very much under scrutiny during my claim. I do live in London, but these are local off licences far from my home. It's a long way to go shopping and it's no place to drink.
    Originally posted by GlassGiraffe
    Of course I realise there is another side to the coin.

    I do not have proof I did not make these transactions, and to that end, all I have is their unusual nature (I understand this is an opinion) and my recollection of the events surrounding them. I'm here for information and advice because I don't believe my claim was processed fairly.

    When I was told that my statement listed a Chip and Pin transaction between the suspected contactless ones, thus invalidating my claim, I asked if they are listed in order and told they aren't at all. Later in the discussion however, I was told that the actual transaction process dates were visible to the fraud department, and that the C&P transaction actually took place days before the night of (What I believe to be) the fraudulent ones, it was unrelated. I'm sure this is all very tedious, but my point is that this seems like subversion, not an effort to uncover any truth or be convinced.

    Appealing to my bank is a good suggestion, I spoke to them earlier on the phone however and they told me they could only transfer me through to Fraud department for another discussion regarding the transactions. I think that I'll write a letter first, and then follow it up with a call in the next week.

    I'll look also into the FOS.
    You people are very kind, thank you for all the input!
    • IAmWales
    • By IAmWales 7th Nov 17, 3:36 PM
    • 1,841 Posts
    • 3,822 Thanks
    IAmWales
    The bank will have heard the FOS threat a thousand times before, it won't influence how they handle your issue. If they offer you a goodwill gesture I would gratefully accept it, because I can't see the FOS upholding what is a weak complaint.

    Did you specify that the card had been stolen when you cancelled it? Earlier posts suggest not, that you don't know what had happened to it, but then you state that you did say it had been stolen. They can check the call in question, be careful not to tailor your version of accounts to be more in your favour.

    I don't disbelieve you, but I can see why the bank have doubts. They'll have had numerous people report cards lost and mysterious transactions after a night out (even when they claim they hadn't been out!). Some will be genuine, some will not. Unfortunately there's nothing to differentiate you from those people. Is there nothing to prove you were home that night?
    • GlassGiraffe
    • By GlassGiraffe 7th Nov 17, 5:27 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    GlassGiraffe
    Wales,

    That is good to know re: FOS, I'm still going to do some research into the service because I'd like to know more. If it will appear irrational, threatening, or be a moral misuse of the service as previously suggested, I won't be involving them in this case.

    I do not know exactly what happened to the card, I used it at a supermarket and assumed it was in my wallet until the next morning, when I reported it missing. I never suggested it had been stolen to the bank, until I saw the unfamiliar charges yesterday evening, a great deal later. After this I referred to the charges as fraudulent and implied they were incurred by an opportunist who found the lost card or a thief, which is what I believe. Frankly I'm not intelligent enough to keep track of a embellished story under scrutiny from a professional, I'm always as honest and as co-operative as I'm able to be during situations such as these!

    Unfortunately, the only thing which times and dates me on that night is my cinema-club card and it's transaction history. Even if the suspect transactions took place whilst I was in the cinema, it proves absolutely nothing at all.

    I'll send Lloyds a polite letter detailing my situation soon, I'm still going to request the call be reviewed. I don't think people should be 'assisted' in the manner I was, regardless if they are believed to be engineering a fraudulent claim!
    • TrickyDicky101
    • By TrickyDicky101 7th Nov 17, 7:58 PM
    • 2,827 Posts
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    TrickyDicky101
    Wales,

    That is good to know re: FOS, I'm still going to do some research into the service because I'd like to know more. If it will appear irrational, threatening, or be a moral misuse of the service as previously suggested, I won't be involving them in this case.

    I do not know exactly what happened to the card, I used it at a supermarket and assumed it was in my wallet until the next morning, when I reported it missing. I never suggested it had been stolen to the bank, until I saw the unfamiliar charges yesterday evening, a great deal later. After this I referred to the charges as fraudulent and implied they were incurred by an opportunist who found the lost card or a thief, which is what I believe. Frankly I'm not intelligent enough to keep track of a embellished story under scrutiny from a professional, I'm always as honest and as co-operative as I'm able to be during situations such as these!

    Unfortunately, the only thing which times and dates me on that night is my cinema-club card and it's transaction history. Even if the suspect transactions took place whilst I was in the cinema, it proves absolutely nothing at all.

    I'll send Lloyds a polite letter detailing my situation soon, I'm still going to request the call be reviewed. I don't think people should be 'assisted' in the manner I was, regardless if they are believed to be engineering a fraudulent claim!
    Originally posted by GlassGiraffe
    I would be very polite in the letter but make it abundantly clear you are making a complaint - this avoids any question of what the intent of your letter is for and will start the clock ticking on the 8 weeks that the bank have to respond.
    • GlassGiraffe
    • By GlassGiraffe 5th Dec 17, 12:52 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    GlassGiraffe
    Update.

    Firstly thank you all for your advice. I really appreciate you taking the time to offer your thoughts and advice.

    I wrote an email detailing my case to Lloyd’s, providing them with annotated statements and my account of the evening before my card was reported missing. I also explained why I believed the suspect transactions to be fraudulent, with virtually the same arguments I posted here.

    I included a complaint regarding the manner in which my claim was handled, again in much the same way as I had in earlier posts on this forum.

    After two days I received a call from Lloyd’s who told me they had listened to the original call and decided the claim was not rejected on reasonable grounds. They wouldn’t guarantee reimbursement, but would re-review my claim. They didn’t go into too much detail about the attitude of the advisor, although they did express that his conduct was 'Unprofessional' and that he was to be spoken to about our interaction.

    Two days later all of my highlighted transactions were refunded.
    A day later I received £75 more in my account which I was told was a gesture of good faith.

    So if anyone else is reading this thread in a similar situation, be persistent, polite and pay attention to your bank statements / contactless card.
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