Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Billco
    • By Billco 1st Nov 17, 3:14 PM
    • 45Posts
    • 16Thanks
    Billco
    POPLA Appeal - EuroCarParks - The Blue Boar
    • #1
    • 1st Nov 17, 3:14 PM
    POPLA Appeal - EuroCarParks - The Blue Boar 1st Nov 17 at 3:14 PM
    Hey guys,

    So I appealed ECP and as expected they rejected the appeal.

    The long and short of it is the driver entered the car park, tried to pay but the machine would not accept the coins, various other people were having issues at the time, so they left a note on the windscreen and went into the pub, told the staff and then had dinner without knowing they would do them on the ANPR.

    Although the thing that has caught me out is in the rejection letter, which shows a record of numberplates that have paid for parking around the time that they were in there.

    I'm "assured" by the 4 occupants that they spent 20 minutes trying to pay and got nowhere and couldn't see any other machines, although looking at the response from ECP there would appear to be 2 machines in there.

    I'm going by what i've been told with this and suspect i'm "chancing" on the signage as I havn't seen it for myself.

    As ever, all help/guidance greatly appreciated.
Page 2
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 5th Dec 17, 10:50 AM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,228 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Cursory glances dont cut it
    Usually they get dates wrong. For example after the period of 28 days starting with the day after the notice is given ends up being within 28 dys, or 29 days from date of issue etc.
    • Billco
    • By Billco 6th Dec 17, 1:16 AM
    • 45 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    Billco
    Ok first draft coming up. - Major Work In Progress

    1. (I’m coming back to this one, because everyone is making me feel like there MUST be something wrong with it – I’m just not seeing it yet)

    2. Eurocarparks have still failed to show that the individual it is pursuing is in fact liable for charge. Further to this I would like to note that page 7, Eurocarparks point out that XXX has not been confirmed to be the driver on the day in question, but from page 10 onwards Eurocarparks have chosen to refer to XXX as being the driver of the vehicle!

    3. With regards to the supposed proof that the machine was working at the time. I would like to draw your attention to 2 points.

    (i) XXX’s vehicle entered the car park at 14:10. Given a perfectly reasonable 10 minutes to find a parking space and unload all the passengers from the vehicle, the driver would have then reached the payment machine at approximately 14:20.

    The last payment shown was at 14:13 and then no further payments were made until 15:20. Surely this would suggest that the machine in question was not working correctly for this period of time as outside of this 67 minute window all other transactions are no further than 20 minutes apart.

    (ii) I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that there appear to be 2 reference numbers shown on the supposed proof of payment "evidence".

    BOAR01A and BOAR01B.

    This would indicate to me that Eurocarparks believe they have two machines on site at the Blue Boar Car Park? However, their own evidence pack, page 17, clearly shows there is only one machine.

    As there are no payment by phone options available in this car park, at least according to Eurocarparks own signage, I would question the authenticity of this “evidence”

    Eurocarparks also state:

    "All vehicle registration numbers are then matched against the data produced by the various means of paying for parking and a list of registration numbers where no payment has been made or where the motorist has stayed longer than the period paid is produced."

    I feel that I must point out that, in the case of the Blue Boar Car Park, "various means of paying for parking", would appear to mean, ONE ticket machine.

    4. I would put it that as Eurocarparks’ signage is inaccessible during busy periods, it therefore cannot comply with the BPA requirements as they cannot be read by customers.

    5. With regards to the signage. I would like to point out the following.

    (i) Sign marked ES& as previously stated is surrounded by wheelie bins and therefore inaccessible by customers.

    This has once again been shown in Eurocarparks own photographs of the site.

    I would also like to remind Eurocarparks that, when a delivery is in place, this sign is not visible at all.

    (ii) Signs marked ANPR PD2, while shown quite clearly in Eurocarparks photography, would appear to have been taken in a near empty car park.

    Whilst in reality, with spaces being full of vehicles at the time of entry, these signs are not at all visible for customers.

    I would also say, that even with Eurocarparks’ own photograph of sign, ANPR PD2, I find it impossible to read the red lettering present at the bottom of the sign.

    What chances then, then does a customer have of reading this from a distance, in a busy car park with vehicles blocking access to the signs?

    (iii) Eurocarparks own ticket machine, on the screen, informs customers that they should “Please Enter Full License Plate Details”

    The UK does not have “licence plates” – We have VRMs.

    They do not show the vehicle has a licence to drive on public roads, unlike the US system.

    Therefore it is impossible to comply with Eurocarparks’ terms.

    Even Eurocarparks’ own photos show vehicles parked in yellow hatch markings blocking access and visibility.

    I question how much effort is put into making sure signs are kept visible to customers when no effort has been made to clear the area before taking their own photographic records.

    (iv) I would also like to point out that the signage on the entrance and exit of the car park is placed on the passenger side of the vehicle, when the vehicle follows the one way system in place. This makes it increasingly difficult for a driver to read the aforementioned signs, when entering or leaving the car park.

    6. Eurocarparks have made no effort whatsoever to show evidence of Landowner Authority – in compliance with the BPA Code of Practice.

    No evidence has been submitted to confirm that this managing agent have the authority to act on the behalf of the landowner, especially with regards to entering into long-term contracts with 3rd party companies.

    7. Eurocarparks have also failed to show any evidence whatsoever of a reliable ANPR system.

    8. Eurocarparks have failed to address the issue of any legitimate interest in enforcing a charge..
    Last edited by Billco; 06-12-2017 at 9:29 AM.
    • Billco
    • By Billco 6th Dec 17, 1:17 AM
    • 45 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    Billco
    Cursory glances dont cut it
    Usually they get dates wrong. For example after the period of 28 days starting with the day after the notice is given ends up being within 28 dys, or 29 days from date of issue etc.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    You are advised that if, after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the Date issued), the parking charge has not been paid in full and we do not know both the name and the current address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you.


    So thats wrong then? As thats what it says on the PCN.
    • Billco
    • By Billco 6th Dec 17, 1:30 AM
    • 45 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    Billco
    Dya know I really feel like ECP have done a terrible job at responding to this appeal. They seem to have ignored half the points and their evidence pack is tiny compared to others i've seen on here.

    But after all that - I feel like my response is even worse. Really struggling with this one.

    Still got a few more days. I'll keep refining as I can!

    Thanks guys
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 6th Dec 17, 7:20 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    You are advised that if, after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the Date issued), the parking charge has not been paid in full and we do not know both the name and the current address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you.


    So thats wrong then? As thats what it says on the PCN.
    Originally posted by Billco
    Also interested to hear the response to this anomaly..
    • Billco
    • By Billco 7th Dec 17, 12:17 AM
    • 45 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    Billco
    Also interested to hear the response to this anomaly..
    Originally posted by MikeHammer
    I would suspect i've mis-understood.

    Surely it can't be THAT easy
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 7th Dec 17, 6:20 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    Yes - that’s what I was thinking too!

    Was wondering more if it’s not exactly decisive in its own right, more a contributory factor highlighting sketchy/non-compliance - I don’t see why they need to change the wording (29 days, not 28, etc.) from the BPA’s CoP.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Dec 17, 7:28 AM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,228 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    It’s mkre that the cop isn’t law, pofa is. 29 days seems right. What other threads did you find about ecp?

    Yes, ecp responses are woeful. Who cares? They don5 do court.
    • MikeHammer
    • By MikeHammer 7th Dec 17, 8:40 AM
    • 25 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    MikeHammer
    Sorry - it's POFA section 8(2f) that states the 28 day thing, not BPA CoP - my mistake..

    So question still stands - is the following exerpt from the ECP letter wrong (and therefore a key thing to highlight at POPLA stage)?

    "You are advised that if, after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the Date issued), the parking charge has not been paid in full and we do not know both the name and the current address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you."
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Dec 17, 8:48 AM
    • 15,959 Posts
    • 24,763 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    This is what PoFA says - para 4(4):
    4)The right under this paragraph may only be exercised after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day on which the notice to keeper is given.
    After the end of the period of 28 days is 29 days.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 7th Dec 17, 8:55 AM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,228 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Yes, as pointed out - 29 days is not wrong, because they have correctly stated it is from date given. Some were using it from date issued.
    • Billco
    • By Billco 7th Dec 17, 10:42 AM
    • 45 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    Billco
    Darn.....well like I said I knew that would have been too easy

    Thanks guys, will make some more additions/alterations today!

    I kind of want to make a big stink about the fact that they havn't even attempted to show landowner authority. But also don't want to push my luck too far - if that makes any sense.
    • Billco
    • By Billco 9th Dec 17, 3:57 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    Billco
    Final draft. If nobody suggests otherwise I will be submitting this at end of play tomorrow.

    Thanks once again to everyone that has helped

    Contrary to EuroCarParks statements that their NTK’s do comply to the requirements of PoFA 2012 I would like to point out the following discrepancies.

    (i)The notice to keeper does not give the correct timescale for the transfer of liability. Under PoFA 2012, transfer of liability occurs after ’28 days beginning from the day after the date the notice is given’, but the notice to keeper states’…29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the Date issued)…’.

    I believe this to be misleading towards the customer.

    2. Eurocarparks have still failed to show that the individual it is pursuing is in fact liable for charge. Further to this I would like to note that page 7, Eurocarparks points out that XXX has not been confirmed to be the driver on the day in question, but from page 10 onwards Eurocarparks have chosen to refer to XXX as being the driver of the vehicle. This is a blatant assumption on the part of Eurocarparks and should be treated as such.

    3. With regards to the supposed proof that the machine was working at the time. I would like to draw your attention to 2 points.

    (i)XXX’s vehicle entered the car park at 14:10. Given a perfectly reasonable 10 minutes to find a parking space and unload all the passengers from the vehicle, the driver would have then reached the payment machine at approximately 14:20.

    The last payment shown was at 14:13 and then no further payments were made until 15:20. Surely this would suggest that the machine in question was not working correctly for this period of time as outside of this 67 minute window the other transactions are no further than 20 minutes apart.

    (ii)I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that there appear to be 2 reference numbers shown on the supposed proof of payment sheet. BOAR01A and BOAR01B. This would indicate to me that Eurocarparks believe they have two machines on site at the Blue Boar Car Park? However, their own evidence pack, page 17, clearly shows there is only one machine on site.

    As there are no payment by phone options available in this car park, as supported by Eurocarparks own signage, I would question the authenticity of this “evidence”

    4. I would put it that as Eurocarparks’ signage is inaccessible during busy periods, it therefore cannot comply with the BPA requirements as they cannot be read by customers.

    5. With regards to the signage. I would like to point out the following.

    (i)Sign marked ES& as previously stated is surrounded by wheelie bins and therefore inaccessible by customers. This has once again been shown in Eurocarparks own photographs of the site. I would also like to remind Eurocarparks that, when a delivery is in place, this sign is not visible at all.

    (ii)Signs marked ANPR PD2, while shown quite clearly in Eurocarparks photography, would appear to have been taken in a near empty car park. Whilst in reality, with spaces being full of vehicles at the time of entry, these signs are not at all visible for customers.

    I would also say, that even with Eurocarparks’ own photograph of sign, ANPR PD2, I find it impossible to read the red lettering present at the bottom of the sign. What chances then does a customer have of reading this from a distance, in a busy car park?

    (iii)Eurocarparks own ticket machine, on the screen, informs customers that they should “Please Enter Full License Plate Details”

    The UK does not have “licence plates” – We have VRMs. They do not show the vehicle has a licence to drive on public roads, unlike the US system. Therefore it is impossible to comply with Eurocarparks’ terms.

    Even Eurocarparks’ own photos show vehicles parked in yellow hatch markings blocking access and visibility. I question how much effort is put into making sure signs are kept visible to customers when no effort has been made to clear the area before taking their own evidence photographs.

    6. Eurocarparks have made no effort whatsoever to show evidence of Landowner Authority – in compliance with the BPA Code of Practice.

    No evidence has been submitted to confirm that this managing agent have the authority to act on behalf of the landowner, especially with regards to entering into long-term contracts with 3rd party companies.

    Therefore I once again question Eurocarparks’ authority to issue parking tickets at this site.

    7. Eurocarparks have also failed to show any evidence whatsoever of a reliable ANPR system.

    (i) I would also like to again point out that there is no signage informing a potential customer that the carpark is ANPR controlled until after entering the site.

    They quote:
    “According to BPA Code of Practise 13.4 – car park operators should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended; before enforcement action is taken. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted; the grace period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.”

    However, they make no mention of a grace period BEFORE a ticket has been purchased. Once again confirming my point that, after discovering the faulty machine and finding no alternatives, had the driver then left the car-park as suggested by Eurocarparks, they still would have received a ticket by post.

    (ii)Eurocarparks do however comment frequently that as the car park is ANPR controlled, no notes placed in the windscreen, such as the driver did on the day, would be seen.

    “As previously advised the car park is camera controlled and any notes/ pay and display ticket displayed on the dashboard will not be seen.”

    Why then, does Eurocarparks repeatedly mention that a ticket must be paid and DISPLAYED at all times? As do the few “visible“ signs in the car park.

    This is misleading to a customer and makes them think that an actual flesh and blood person, that could be reasoned with, is patrolling the site, which is why I windscreen note was placed in the first place.

    8. Eurocarparks have failed to address the issue of any legitimate interest in enforcing a charge.

    I would also like to question the response given by Eurocarparks when describing the parking tariff at The Blue Boar car park.

    Taken from their own evidence pack:
    Up to 2 hours and 41 minutes 1.20
    Up to 2 hours 2.00
    Up to 3 hours 3.00
    How then does parking for 2 hours and 41 minutes calculate to be less than for parking up to 2 hours? I respectfully suggest that Eurocarparks should sort out their own tariff system before being allowed to charge customers.
    • Billco
    • By Billco 13th Dec 17, 8:33 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    Billco
    And Success!

    POPLA allowed the appeal based on no proof of landowner authority supplied by ECP.

    Thanks to everyone that helped as always! Much appreciated

    Would it be considered bad form to now send ECP a letter full of middle finger emojis??

    I'll add this to the POPLA thread.

    "The appellant has stated that they do not believe the operator has the authority to pursue charges or form contracts at this car park.

    Section 7.1 of the BPA Code of Practice outlines to operators, “If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent).

    The written confirmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for.

    In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the BPA Code of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges”.

    In this case the operator has not provided any evidence in response to this ground of appeal.

    As such, I am not satisfied that the operator had the authority to issue this PCN.

    I note that the appellant gave additional grounds for appeal in their submission. As I have considered the lack of landowner authority for the site I will address the additional grounds.

    Accordingly, I must allow this appeal."
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 13th Dec 17, 8:36 PM
    • 348 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    claxtome
    Great news. Another successful POPLA appeal.
    Time to celebrate.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

996Posts Today

5,829Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • RT @bearface83: @MartinSLewis check out the @Missguided new 60% off offer. Upping the cost of items almost double to make us think it?s a?

  • RT @efitzpat: Thank you SO SO much @MartinSLewis for your Student Loans refund advice! I just got a grand refunded right before Xmas! Whoop?

  • Have a lovely weekend folks. Don't do anything (fiscally) that I wouldn't do!

  • Follow Martin