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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Karl
    • By MSE Karl 31st Oct 17, 5:13 PM
    • 48Posts
    • 14Thanks
    MSE Karl
    Smart Meters
    • #1
    • 31st Oct 17, 5:13 PM
    Smart Meters 31st Oct 17 at 5:13 PM
    Hi!

    This is the discussion thread for the


    Click reply below to discuss. If you haven!!!8217;t already, join the forum to reply.
    Last edited by MSE Andrea; 09-11-2017 at 2:25 PM.
Page 13
    • Michaelw
    • By Michaelw 1st Feb 18, 12:08 PM
    • 121 Posts
    • 38 Thanks
    Michaelw
    Capita shares collapse after warning on profits

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42885211

    Smart DCC Ltd is a wholly owned subsidiary of Capita PLC

    https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/about-dcc/

    This doen't look to a positive situation ahead of the main roll out of smart meters,it raises questions of possible problems and contingency measures that are in place if any.
    • russervice
    • By russervice 2nd Feb 18, 11:00 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    russervice
    Criminals xmas presey to see if your @ home ! ..
    .. An online tech reader that can be accessed to see when your not using electricity etc -- thus your home is available to be burgled !
    +++ when supposedly 'all' homes are smartmetered; then charges will just go UP !
    &&& having a energy company call round occasionally, will ensure that somebody checks electricity supplies are not UNSAFE etc
    • erudioed
    • By erudioed 2nd Feb 18, 11:36 AM
    • 644 Posts
    • 927 Thanks
    erudioed
    I very much doubt the last part of that. Look at the ongoing VW/car cheat device debacle. Putting trust in such large companies is foolish in this day and age. And just look at how regulatory bodies (such as FOS after its recent PWC 'restructuring') are being slowly made more useless (see other forums on this very website). I seem to recall the recent revelation that over half of all drinking water is polluted with plastic, something that definitely didnt happen over night. Yet, where were the water companies reporting that over 10 years ago? Answer, not reporting that!
    • Hengus
    • By Hengus 2nd Feb 18, 2:33 PM
    • 5,179 Posts
    • 3,176 Thanks
    Hengus
    Criminals xmas presey to see if your @ home ! ..
    .. An online tech reader that can be accessed to see when your not using electricity etc -- thus your home is available to be burgled !
    +++ when supposedly 'all' homes are smartmetered; then charges will just go UP !
    &&& having a energy company call round occasionally, will ensure that somebody checks electricity supplies are not UNSAFE etc
    Originally posted by russervice
    Hi - welcome to the forum. With respect, a criminal does not need to hack your meter to see if a property is unoccupied. I know of 5 properties nearby where I live that are empty most of the time. Walking down the street, there are no cars outside these properties; some curtains are drawn and lights are off at night. A criminal checking on my electricity usage needs nothing more than a pair of pliers or a 50p plastic meter key to access the outside meter box! Why would he bother hacking into my smart meter even if he had the kit and the skills to do so?

    As far as meter safety checks are concerned, these are now based on a supplier's risk assessment which has to be carried out irrespective of the meter type. (Quote from Ofgem: Suppliers should be able to satisfy themselves of their existing obligations under health and safety legislation, which could include a risk-based approach to matters of safety. Our decision is to repeal the two-yearly meter inspection licence conditions in gas and electricity in their entirety. Unquote)

    In truth, a smart meter will be safer the present type of meter as smart meters report faults to the supplier. For example, if there is a gas leak at a union or pipe joint after the meter this will be reported as excess usage which would then be investigated (not least, to make sure that there is no theft going on).

    All that said, the bigger risk to smart meters and the Grid is a remote cyber attack that takes out many meters in a given geographical area. These types of attack can have devastating effects on the supply network. This risk could be eliminated in its entirety if Government disabled the remote disconnection facility which legal experts now question will ever be used.
    • erudioed
    • By erudioed 2nd Feb 18, 7:39 PM
    • 644 Posts
    • 927 Thanks
    erudioed

    In truth, a smart meter will be safer the present type of meter as smart meters report faults to the supplier. For example, if there is a gas leak at a union or pipe joint after the meter this will be reported as excess usage which would then be investigated (not least, to make sure that there is no theft going on).
    Originally posted by Hengus
    I think it is a little more complicated than smart meters being safer than the old kind for reporting faults, i am sure they will be. But concerning human health, that is another issue and surely the primary issue before any other. Here is a quote from one article that questions the idea of safety on human health, one of many written by independent researchers:


    "It is striking that the American Academy of Environmental Medicine (AAEM) called for a moratorium on smart meters (2012) and continues to veto them today.
    Based on their literature reviews and clinical experience, they advised no smart meters should be located in or next to the homes of those with cardiac or neurological conditions, including Parkinson!!!8217;s or dementia; or electrosensitivity; or cancer.
    Their board wrote to California!!!8217;s Public Utilities Commission: !!!8220;guidelines for RF exposure used to justify installation of !!!8216;smart meters!!!8217; are based only on thermal effects and are obsolete!!!8221; !!!8211; guidelines now under heavy fire from the 224-scientist appeal to the UN (see Part 1).
    The AAEM continues: !!!8220;Wireless RF radiation !!!8230; effects accumulate over time which is an important consideration given the chronic nature of exposure to !!!8216;smart meters!!!8217;. The current medical literature raises credible questions about genetic and cellular effects, hormonal effects !!!8230; blood / brain barrier damage, and increased risks of certain types of cancers from RF and ELF levels similar to those emitted by !!!8216;smart meters!!!8217;. Children are placed at particular risk.!!!8221;"

    This is from this article: http://stopsmartmeters.org.uk/smart-meter-radiation-and-health-why-are-we-neglecting-non-toxic-alternatives-2/

    Here is another article asking questions than need answering from globalresearch:
    : https://www.globalresearch.ca/smart-meter-dangers-the-health-hazards-of-wireless-electromagnetic-radiation-exposure/31891
    Last edited by erudioed; 02-02-2018 at 7:46 PM.
    • grum322
    • By grum322 7th Feb 18, 9:46 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    grum322
    How do smart gas meters work
    I have been trying to find out how they work. My gas meter is outside well away from the electricity meter and obviously has no electricity supply. The nearest supply is inside behind some expensive fitted furniture and I do not want some paid by results yob of a fitter gouging his way through. Does anyone know if the gas meters work without an electricity supply?
    PS Personally i would not have a smart meter in a million years and all the money saving hype around them is complete and utter !!!!!!!!.
    • gsmlnx
    • By gsmlnx 7th Feb 18, 9:55 AM
    • 776 Posts
    • 623 Thanks
    gsmlnx
    @grum322

    Smart Gas meters have a sealed for life battery in them. So when the battery fails (5 to 10 years) the meter is replaced.
    • Hengus
    • By Hengus 7th Feb 18, 11:00 AM
    • 5,179 Posts
    • 3,176 Thanks
    Hengus
    I have been trying to find out how they work. My gas meter is outside well away from the electricity meter and obviously has no electricity supply. The nearest supply is inside behind some expensive fitted furniture and I do not want some paid by results yob of a fitter gouging his way through. Does anyone know if the gas meters work without an electricity supply?
    PS Personally i would not have a smart meter in a million years and all the money saving hype around them is complete and utter !!!!!!!!.
    Originally posted by grum322
    In years to come, saying ‘no’ may become meaningless. Suppliers have a legal right, and a duty, to replace a meter at the end of its life. Who determines end of life: the supplier. There is nothing to stop them replacing your existing meter with a modern smart meter with the comms hub disabled. As more smart meters are installed, then suppliers will become increasingly reluctant to support older generation meters. I think it is called progress.
    • Hengus
    • By Hengus 7th Feb 18, 11:05 AM
    • 5,179 Posts
    • 3,176 Thanks
    Hengus
    @grum322

    Smart Gas meters have a sealed for life battery in them. So when the battery fails (5 to 10 years) the meter is replaced.
    Originally posted by gsmlnx
    Not according to the Smartme website:

    The electricity meter is mains powered but the gas meter is battery powered. The gas meter battery can be replaced by a Smart Meter Installer and is excepted to last the life of the meter, however its life can be greatly reduced heavy communications such as repeated firmware updates.

    The smart meter reports battery life back to the DCC.
    • gsmlnx
    • By gsmlnx 7th Feb 18, 11:27 AM
    • 776 Posts
    • 623 Thanks
    gsmlnx
    @Hengus
    Well if the battery does last the meter lifetime then the meter will be replaced.
    Nice to know that the batteries can be replaced (I do wonder if it is only for certain models of meter) but it will still involve an installer turning up, turning off the gas, probably removing the meter to gain access (otherwise there is a security flaw potentially).
    It might be cheaper to replace the meter full stop than replace a battery. Especially if the meter has a shorter future lifespan than the new battery.
    Who knows what will really happen when the time comes?
    Given the rollout so far, all bets would be off for a sensible cost effective solution.
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 7th Feb 18, 11:31 AM
    • 1,034 Posts
    • 890 Thanks
    House Martin
    @grum322

    Smart Gas meters have a sealed for life battery in them. So when the battery fails (5 to 10 years) the meter is replaced.
    Originally posted by gsmlnx
    No they don t. The battery is a Tadiran Lithium Thionyl Chloride 3.6 v C cell .
    Its accessed behind a couple of cheap plastic pull out seals. Costs £15 for a single battery, much less in bulk
    I personally could change one in 5 minutes flat.Needs a soldering iron though because the + and - pins are soldered on.
    Possibly easier to do it on the bench rather than under some ones stairs because of the soldering on of the two leads.
    Absolutely no reason to junk an expensive Landis and Gyr smart gas meter because of a battery declining in power IMO
    • gsmlnx
    • By gsmlnx 7th Feb 18, 1:28 PM
    • 776 Posts
    • 623 Thanks
    gsmlnx
    @House Martin

    Soldered on batteries, as you say will make changing them in situ fun for some locations.
    • Hengus
    • By Hengus 7th Feb 18, 2:38 PM
    • 5,179 Posts
    • 3,176 Thanks
    Hengus
    The thought of someone using a soldering iron close to a gas meter just beggars belief. The experts say that there are two risks to battery life: one, a faulty battery and. two, frequent firmware downloads. These meters and their batteries are designed to send minute pulses of information every 30 minutes and no more.

    For example, I have an optical spot meter reader that sends me gas usage every 15 minutes. Its 2 AA batteries have a design life in excess of 3 years and no soldering iron is needed to replace them.
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 7th Feb 18, 6:29 PM
    • 1,034 Posts
    • 890 Thanks
    House Martin
    The thought of someone using a soldering iron close to a gas meter just beggars belief. The experts say that there are two risks to battery life: one, a faulty battery and. two, frequent firmware downloads. These meters and their batteries are designed to send minute pulses of information every 30 minutes and no more.

    For example, I have an optical spot meter reader that sends me gas usage every 15 minutes. Its 2 AA batteries have a design life in excess of 3 years and no soldering iron is needed to replace them.
    Originally posted by Hengus
    Have you ever seen your gas powered central heating boiler in action ? beggars belief how dangerous that is.
    Battery compartment of these meters are totally isolated and sealed from gas supply.I could light a flame thrower on it never mind a soldering iron. The battery compartment would ve been tested to withstand a battery shorting out, and they can get very hot.
    Next you will be telling me how dangerous an electric meter is very close to a gas meter lol
    Last edited by House Martin; 07-02-2018 at 7:04 PM.
    • sevenhills
    • By sevenhills 7th Feb 18, 7:20 PM
    • 926 Posts
    • 340 Thanks
    sevenhills
    @House Martin

    Soldered on batteries, as you say will make changing them in situ fun for some locations.
    Originally posted by gsmlnx
    On a gas meter! I know there are no flames, but would that get past health n safety?

    • buglawton
    • By buglawton 7th Feb 18, 9:11 PM
    • 7,176 Posts
    • 3,479 Thanks
    buglawton
    The thought of someone using a soldering iron close to a gas meter just beggars belief. The experts say that there are two risks to battery life: one, a faulty battery and. two, frequent firmware downloads. These meters and their batteries are designed to send minute pulses of information every 30 minutes and no more.

    For example, I have an optical spot meter reader that sends me gas usage every 15 minutes. Its 2 AA batteries have a design life in excess of 3 years and no soldering iron is needed to replace them.
    Originally posted by Hengus
    My gas fitter was brazing the live pipe from my meter with a blowtorch. When I expressed astonishment he said, normal practice. Gas is not flammable unless mixed with oxygen.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 7th Feb 18, 10:50 PM
    • 4,028 Posts
    • 5,168 Thanks
    zeupater
    Hi All

    Apparently questions have been asked in parliamentary committees and in house debates regarding smart-metering leading to the revelation that as of ....
    ... the end of January 2018 somewhere between 8 & 10 million smart-meters had been installed in the UK of which, according to the DCC, only around 250 conforming to the SMETS2 standard had been supplied for testing. Questions raised in Parliament related to the Smart Meters Bill on 5th February 2018 <Hansard v635 c1288> suggested that only 80 of the 250 supplied units had been installed to that date even though SMETS2 units should have been installed in volume from 2014 onwards ...
    Smart-Metering: A clever green solution rapidly becoming a white elephant?

    The article goes on to highlight & question the reason for extending project timescales by delaying the date ...
    ... by which licensable activities will have ceased from 2018 to 2023 is likely the first official recognition that the project is seriously behind schedule and unlikely to meet the 2020 deadline as specified by the EU ...
    ... also highlighting an inconsistency between the 80 SMETS2 linked to the DCC by January 2018 & previous (January 2017) claims made by the DCC that they had attained ...
    ... SMWAN coverage of 97% to in excess of 99% for installations in various areas ..
    ... apparently a test conducted before any of the 240 SMETS2 compliant meters had been made available for testing.


    There's also an interesting take on the validity of the BEIS project cost/benefit analysis with respect to delays and duplication ...

    Interesting ....

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 07-02-2018 at 10:53 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Hengus
    • By Hengus 8th Feb 18, 8:30 AM
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    • 3,176 Thanks
    Hengus
    @zeupater. Thank you for the link. There are so many conclusions in the article that I agree with; particularly,.......

    Quote: the basic points raised above suggest that as opposed to being a well scoped and managed project, there are now plenty of reasons to believe that project strategic responsibilities are unclear, management is almost none-existent, and no-one is actively driving what is effectively an out of control runaway scheme. Unquote

    A scheme that we are all paying for.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 8th Feb 18, 8:20 PM
    • 4,028 Posts
    • 5,168 Thanks
    zeupater
    @zeupater. Thank you for the link. There are so many conclusions in the article that I agree with; particularly,.......

    Quote: the basic points raised above suggest that as opposed to being a well scoped and managed project, there are now plenty of reasons to believe that project strategic responsibilities are unclear, management is almost none-existent, and no-one is actively driving what is effectively an out of control runaway scheme. Unquote

    A scheme that we are all paying for.
    Originally posted by Hengus
    Hi

    After checking out the site's satellite weather page today (do this often to optimise self-use of solar!) I followed the Hansard link in that article & found reading the proposed clause 5 & 6 amendments to the 2008 Energy Act quite interesting ...

    New clause 5 Requirement on suppliers to provide information on cost of smart meter programme to consumers;

    (1) The Energy Act 2008 is amended as follows.
    (2) At the end of section 88(3) (power to amend licence conditions etc: smart meters), insert;
    (m) provision requiring the holder of a supply licence to include information with consumer bills on the cost to consumers of the Smart Meter Implementation Programme.;

    This new clause would allow the Secretary of State by order to amend licence conditions so that energy suppliers are required to include the cost to the customer of the Smart Meter Programme in all customer energy bills for the period covered by the energy bill.


    New clause 6;Smart Meter Implementation Programme: review of cost to consumers;
    (1) Within 3 months of this Act coming into force, the Secretary of State shall commission an independent review of the cost to the consumer of the Smart Meter Implementation Programme.
    (2) The review under subsection (1) shall include
    (a) a breakdown of the costs to consumers of component parts of the Smart Meters Implementation Programme including the cost of the DCC;
    (b) the potential benefits to consumers of information on the cost of the Smart Meter Implementation Programme being included on energy bills and statements;
    (c) a longitudinal estimate of the cost to consumers to date and the projected future cost of the Programme; and
    (d) such other matters as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.
    (3) The Secretary of State must lay a report of this review before both Houses of Parliament as soon as practicable after its completion.

    This new clause would require the Secretary of State to commission an independent review of the cost to the consumer of the Smart Meter Implementation Programme that must consider the potential benefits to consumers of including a summary of the cost on their energy bills and statements.
    ... so it looks like they're looking to tie the energy sector down on being transparent & advising consumers how much we'll be paying for these "Free" -or- "supplied at no cost to the customer" meters as opposed to hiding the project cost amongst a general environmental total ....

    Probably 10 years later than it should've been, but better late than never ...

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 08-02-2018 at 8:25 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 9th Feb 18, 2:22 PM
    • 1,346 Posts
    • 1,601 Thanks
    badmemory
    Do you think anybody, gov or ombudsman or whoever, would ever dare enforce that act? I can't see anyone wanting us to know how much they have actually thrown away in the last few years on this & almost all to no avail!
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