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  • FIRST POST
    • JRW88
    • By JRW88 28th Oct 17, 2:11 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 8Thanks
    JRW88
    CEL - Court Papers Received
    • #1
    • 28th Oct 17, 2:11 PM
    CEL - Court Papers Received 28th Oct 17 at 2:11 PM
    Hi all,

    I received court papers through from CEL.

    I have been online and submitted by Acknowledgement already.

    Please can someone help me with my defense?

    The situation is as follows:


    The alleged incident took place back in 2015.

    It was a 1 hour car park, left after three hours. No ticket as it was one of those capture your registration number jobs. It was a car park for three shops ( A Tesco, Lloyd's pharmacy and a charity shop).

    They are asking for around £400.

    They sent details of the incident after the 14 days that was specified on the court papers although its dated one day after the claim was made against me... sneaky buggars!!!

    No correspondence has been sent to CEL since the alleged incident.

    Most of the generic defenses on here look good and easy to tweek.
    Should I just use one of them? Or is there certain specifics that you would recommend adding?

    Any help would be much appreciated!!!

    Thanks in advance!
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 28th Oct 17, 2:38 PM
    • 17,164 Posts
    • 21,447 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 28th Oct 17, 2:38 PM
    • #2
    • 28th Oct 17, 2:38 PM
    yes use one of those and tweak it as a draft defence , it is exactly what we want people to do
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • JRW88
    • By JRW88 28th Oct 17, 3:15 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    JRW88
    • #3
    • 28th Oct 17, 3:15 PM
    • #3
    • 28th Oct 17, 3:15 PM
    Can you please point me in the right direction of a good template please for my scenario?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 28th Oct 17, 3:43 PM
    • 17,164 Posts
    • 21,447 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 28th Oct 17, 3:43 PM
    • #4
    • 28th Oct 17, 3:43 PM
    Can you please point me in the right direction of a good template please for my scenario?
    Originally posted by JRW88
    no , because that would mean I or others need to understand your legal situation (scenario) , generally speaking we are not qualified to do that task

    but I will point you at a recent defence that you can easily adapt yourself

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5729157

    or find another recent one that suits
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • JRW88
    • By JRW88 29th Oct 17, 12:04 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    JRW88
    • #5
    • 29th Oct 17, 12:04 PM
    please can you see what you think? Unsure about the bit in orange
    • #5
    • 29th Oct 17, 12:04 PM
    In the County Court Business Centre
    Between:
    Civil Enforcement Limited
    V
    XXXXXXX




    Claim Number: XXXXXXXX




    I, XXXXX, deny I am liable to the Claimant for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:
    • The Claim Form issued on XX/10/2017 by Civil Enforcement Limited was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by “Civil Enforcement Limited”.
    • This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol (as outlined in the new Pre Action Protocol for Debt Claims, 1 October 2017). As an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.

      1. There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction.
      2. This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.
      3. The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.
      4. The Claim Form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action nor sufficient detail. The Defendant has no idea what the claim is about - why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information.
        The Claim Form Particulars did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs. These documents, and the ‘Letter before County Court Claim’ should have been produced, pursuant to paragraph 6 of the Practice Direction – Pre Action Conduct. This constitutes a deliberate attempt to thwart any efforts to defend the claim or to “take stock”, pursuant to paragraph 12 of the Practice Direction. Again, this totally contradicts the guidance outlined in the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (2017), the aims of which are:
        1. ‘early engagement and communication between the parties, including early exchange of sufficient information about the matter to help clarify whether there are any issues in dispute
        2. enable the parties to resolve the matter without the need to start court proceedings, including agreeing a reasonable repayment plan or considering using an Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) procedure
        3. encourage the parties to act in a reasonable and proportionate manner in all dealings with one another (for example, avoiding running up costs which do not bear a reasonable relationship to the sums in issue) and
        4. support the efficient management of proceedings that cannot be avoided.’
      5. The Defence therefore asks the Court to strike out the claim as disclosing no cause of action and having no reasonable prospect of success as currently drafted.
      6. Alternatively, the Defendant asks that the Claimant is required to file Particulars which comply with Practice Directions and include at least the following information;
        1. Whether the matter is being brought for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge, and an explanation as to the exact nature of the charge
        2. A copy of any contract it is alleged was in place (e.g. copies of signage)
        3. How any contract was concluded (if by performance, then copies of signage maps in place at the time)
        4. Whether keeper liability is being claimed, and if so copies of any Notice to Driver / Notice to Keeper
        5. Whether the Claimant is acting as Agent or Principal, together with a list of documents they will rely on in this matter
        6. If charges over and above the initial charge are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed
        7. If Interest charges are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed.
      7. Once these Particulars have been filed, the Defendant asks for reasonable time to file another defence.
    • Schedule states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not, and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when it is believed that neither the signs, nor any NTK mentioned a possible additional £149.66 for outstanding debt and damages.
    • The Claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that £50 'legal representative’s (or even admin) costs’ were incurred.
    • This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. As far as I can ascertain, based upon the very vague particulars of claim and complete lack of evidence and photographs, and without having been furnished with the alleged signage 'contract', none of this applies in this material case.
    • In the absence of any proof of adequate signage that contractually bound the Defendant then there can have been no contract and the Claimant has no case.
      1. The Claimant is put to strict proof that at the time of the alleged event they had both advertisement consent and the permission from the site owner to display the signs.
      2. In the absence of strict proof I submit that the Claimant was committing an offence by displaying their signs and therefore no contract could have been entered into between the driver and the Claimant.
      3. Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
        1. Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.
        2. It is believed the signage was not lit and any terms were not transparent or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 in requiring a huge inflated sum as 'compensation' from by an authorised party using the premises as intended.
        3. No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.
        4. The signs are believed to have no mention of any debt collection additional charge, which cannot form part of any alleged contract.
      4. BPA CoP breaches - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
        1. the signs were not compliant in terms of the font size, lighting or positioning.
        2. the sum pursued exceeds £100.
        3. there is / was no compliant landowner contract.
    • No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
      It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.
    • The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.
    • The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.
    • Due to the length of time, the Defendant has little to no recollection of the day in question. It would not be reasonable to expect a registered keeper to be able to recall the potential driver(s) of the car over 10 months later. In any case, there is no such obligation in law and this was confirmed in the POPLA Annual Report 2015 by parking expert barrister and Lead Adjudicator, Henry Greenslade, who also clarified the fact that registered keeper can only be held liable under the POFA Schedule 4 and not by presumption or any other legal argument.


    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:
    • Failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on 09th October 2017.
    • Sent a template, well-known to be generic cut and paste 'Particulars' of claim relying on irrelevant case law (Beavis) which ignores the fact that this Claimant cannot hold registered keepers liable in law, due to their own choice of non-POFA documentation.


    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.
    I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
    • JRW88
    • By JRW88 24th Dec 17, 1:51 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    JRW88
    • #6
    • 24th Dec 17, 1:51 PM
    • #6
    • 24th Dec 17, 1:51 PM
    Hi All,

    I got notice through the post this morning that CEL have discontinued Court Proceedings.

    I just want to thank you for all of your help and support. I honestly couldn't have done this without you guys.

    If you want to know anything, feel free to ask.

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone!
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 24th Dec 17, 2:30 PM
    • 6,738 Posts
    • 8,721 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #7
    • 24th Dec 17, 2:30 PM
    • #7
    • 24th Dec 17, 2:30 PM
    Hi All,

    I got notice through the post this morning that CEL have discontinued Court Proceedings.

    I just want to thank you for all of your help and support. I honestly couldn't have done this without you guys.

    If you want to know anything, feel free to ask.

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year everyone!
    Originally posted by JRW88
    Well done
    I wonder if CEL will ever bring out their own book

    "A diary of a Timewaster"
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 5th Jan 18, 1:09 PM
    • 1,879 Posts
    • 3,068 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    • #8
    • 5th Jan 18, 1:09 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Jan 18, 1:09 PM
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73611836#post73611836


    you could try and seek costs, using this poster's documents as a starting point and adapting them to your facts.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
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