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  • FIRST POST
    • Hockey27
    • By Hockey27 26th Oct 17, 9:10 AM
    • 21Posts
    • 6Thanks
    Hockey27
    Train Station "PenaltyCN"
    • #1
    • 26th Oct 17, 9:10 AM
    Train Station "PenaltyCN" 26th Oct 17 at 9:10 AM
    Hi all

    Thanks in advance for any help and advice on this matter

    The Driver at a South Western station yesterday, something that has been done 50+ times in the past 6 months, after parking up, collecting prepaid train tickets and heading to the platform an attempt was made to pay for parking via ringo. Major issue ensues, the company phone was being migrated to a new platform meaning there was no data service and unfortunately no time to go back to the ticket office and car before the train arrived. After a few phone calls with the office the data service was unable to be restored meaning a ticket could not be put on.

    Upon return to the car a PCN was on the windscreen (which left an awful amount of residue once removed), stating all the usual, byelaws, prosecution etc etc. Once able (the first available chance)parking was immediately paid for at the full day rate/ full charge that would have been incurred.

    Ultimately the driver is aware that they have fallen foul of the rules, but not through a deliberate act, what options are there form this point?


    - Are there extenuating circumstances regards the phone service - no data, cannot use app or internet to find phone number

    - Where the fee was paid in full has the company suffered "no material loss" therefore the fine is unwarranted

    - The contravention is "not displaying a permit or ticket", every time the car has been parked a ticket has always been paid for, so never displayed a ticket/ permit, surely if this is the offence a fine should have been issued every time

    - One major point of query, a "PENALTY Charge Notice" was issued apposed to a "PARKING Charge, having read the forums and other websites it appears as if only councils, local authorities and police can hand thee out. Is the charge unenforceable as they are none of the above?




    Thanks again all
    Last edited by Hockey27; 26-10-2017 at 10:54 AM.
Page 3
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 5th Nov 17, 12:36 PM
    • 7,418 Posts
    • 6,465 Thanks
    The Deep
    It misled me, (and a few others here), Mr C, but perhaps an MA in English Literature does not really equip one to understand all this legal stuff.
    Last edited by The Deep; 05-11-2017 at 12:53 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 5th Nov 17, 12:40 PM
    • 7,736 Posts
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    pappa golf
    There is nothing to stop the PPC from prosecuting - that's a red herring. The point is that neither PPCs nor TOCs are likely to take out a private prosecution because it's time-consuming and expensive, they would have to prove who was driving, and even if they succeed the fine goes into the State purse.

    Much easier to invent their own unenforceable penalties and frighten people into paying up with threats of prosecution and (now) clamping. At least in the past motorists had some protection from this from POPLA. The BPA only lifted the requirement for PPCs to offer POPLA very recently. So it remains to be seen how many, apart from Indigo, are going to take the chance to by-pass what has proved to be a crucial filter. My guess is they all will, eventually.
    Originally posted by Handbags-at-dawn
    they tried that before , very expensive mistake to clamp for previous debts http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=64994
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 5th Nov 17, 12:58 PM
    • 3,237 Posts
    • 3,524 Thanks
    Johno100
    There is nothing to stop the PPC from prosecuting - that's a red herring. The point is that neither PPCs nor TOCs are likely to take out a private prosecution because it's time-consuming and expensive, they would have to prove who was driving, and even if they succeed the fine goes into the State purse.

    Much easier to invent their own unenforceable penalties and frighten people into paying up with threats of prosecution and (now) clamping. At least in the past motorists had some protection from this from POPLA. The BPA only lifted the requirement for PPCs to offer POPLA very recently. So it remains to be seen how many, apart from Indigo, are going to take the chance to by-pass what has proved to be a crucial filter. My guess is they all will, eventually.
    Originally posted by Handbags-at-dawn
    But don't overlook the fact that the biggest deterrent to PPC's going down this route and they or the TOC actually carrying out the threat of a prosecution via the magistrates court is that while they might be able to recover their costs, any fine levied by the court will go to HMCS and then onto the treasury.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 5th Nov 17, 1:04 PM
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    • 8,003 Thanks
    pappa golf
    is clamping legal for an "alledged" debt , one that no court appearance has taken place?

    also as asked before , clamping by whom , there are very very few SIA registered clampers left

    ok , they can say they work for TOC , in which case why are PPC invoicing ?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Nov 17, 1:40 PM
    • 51,754 Posts
    • 65,396 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Email me, pappa golf. Easier to explain the current/planned 'railway byelaws' clamping scam that way.

    In this case the driver has been served with a "PENALTY" charge notice but not by indigo, it bears mention to byelaws and prosecution but is not from the TOC.
    Have you shown it to us? Who is it from then?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Nov 17, 2:15 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Just to add, the Prankster has just blogged about this, based on what is emerging:

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/11/clamping-is-back-but-is-it-legal.html

    I understand that the Secretary of State for Transport has been appraised of the 'issues' by a knowledgeable (non MSE) person.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Hockey27
    • By Hockey27 5th Nov 17, 3:35 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Hockey27
    Hi all

    Coupon-mad, I presume you are questioning my "self assessment" of the ticket given that i'm the one asking questions ;-) Have included a dropbox link as I believe this is anonymous?

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/vehfai5svz1is4m/PCN.pdf?dl=0

    Does this confirm previous thoughts or does it pose more issue?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Nov 17, 4:19 PM
    • 51,754 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Ah, yours was CP Plus.

    This is a very similar modus operandi to that rumbling ahead with Indigo and Govia. Are there clamping signs up at that station?

    Read the Prankster's Blog about it. I would be complaining to your MP about this because there is no lawful excuse to clamp cars in addition to a 'penalty' or to enforce or force payment of any 'penalty'. Only the Magistrates Court could do that, if the landowner TOC themselves took it there within 6 months.

    In your case, wait for the NTK (which might come from a 'debt collector' like PCS) and then appeal as keeper and see if you get a POPLA code or not. Indigo are not issuing them but CP Plus, who knows how they will muck up the process? Every delay strings it out closer to the 6 months.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Hockey27
    • By Hockey27 5th Nov 17, 7:32 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Hockey27
    Hey Coupon-mad

    In a roundabout way yes, theres a small clamp picture on the sign, see link to pic as taken from a car.

    sign - https://www.dropbox.com/s/fl0g0xjq1yzroti/Sign.JPG?dl=0

    Also, the below link is a pic of the entrance, not a sign in sight!! Will send that pic to the BPA/ DVLA

    Entrance - https://www.dropbox.com/s/0skvksyjq3854z9/Entrance.JPG?dl=0

    Will wait to see if an NTK comes through now! Will keep a log of activity and post as a case study at the end, hopefully with cancellation result!

    Thank you and to all for answering any questions, I asked as I want to be sure that the chances of success are high rather than risk a larger (fine) invoice. I really appreciate all your help, don't know how some of you find the time as you are active in almost every post!!
    Last edited by Hockey27; 05-11-2017 at 7:36 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Nov 17, 8:44 PM
    • 51,754 Posts
    • 65,396 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I think your chances v CP Plus are better than Indigo cases as they (Indigo) are IMHO, out of control right now, having thought it was a good idea and a normal thing for a company, to take nurses to court. Indigo are baring their teeth.

    Whereas we often see CP Plus just give up.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 6th Nov 17, 10:06 AM
    • 3,875 Posts
    • 5,462 Thanks
    Half_way
    Lets see if indigo (or any other ppc for that matter) try an ncp, and clamp a vehicle at a railway station for so called outstanding debts
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • jkdd77
    • By jkdd77 6th Nov 17, 10:37 AM
    • 249 Posts
    • 320 Thanks
    jkdd77
    Lets see if indigo (or any other ppc for that matter) try an ncp, and clamp a vehicle at a railway station for so called outstanding debts
    Originally posted by Half_way
    There are various Pepipoo posts suggesting that CP Plus have already done just this at SWT (now SWR) car parks, with the police (wrongly) insisting "it's a civil matter", and even, disgracefully, assisting the criminal clampers in committing their crimes by threatening arrest for "breach of the peace" if the motorist attempts to remove the clamp at all, even without causing damage.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 6th Nov 17, 4:14 PM
    • 7,418 Posts
    • 6,465 Thanks
    The Deep
    I have twice noticed with Thames Valley Police that they are not up to speed with criminal offences and civil matters. Is it not time that all new policemen had to have a degree.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Hockey27
    • By Hockey27 1st Dec 17, 9:40 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Hockey27
    Hi All

    So, a spanner for the works on this one. I was unfortunately involved in a car crash (no fault) and had confirmation that my car will be written off.

    Any history of this happening?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 1st Dec 17, 10:01 AM
    • 15,918 Posts
    • 24,674 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Hi All

    So, a spanner for the works on this one. I was unfortunately involved in a car crash (no fault) and had confirmation that my car will be written off.

    Any history of this happening?
    Originally posted by Hockey27
    Why is this ‘a spanner for the works’ (sic)?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Hockey27
    • By Hockey27 1st Dec 17, 10:18 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Hockey27
    Not sure it anything will be affected by this?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 1st Dec 17, 11:20 AM
    • 1,166 Posts
    • 1,197 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Why would it be?
    Selling the car doesnt affect what happened at the time, so why would it being written off do anything either?
    • Hockey27
    • By Hockey27 2nd Dec 17, 1:22 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Hockey27
    Hi All, have received a letter through today from Parking "Charlie Sierra Lima" demanding £120 for an unpaid "Penalty" notice, have attached the front page less details.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/9yxgxv9r0w4wq4f/Photo%2002-12-2017%2C%2013%2000%2022.jpg?dl=0

    What shall I do now?? Send off the newbies template and wait to see if cancelled or other?

    There seem to be a few holes in the wording, but I guess I should not challenge any at this time?

    On a side note - Paragraph 3 seems to threaten that if the car was parking there again it would be clamped


    ** Just noticed - This is a "Penalty Notice reminder" / Unpaid Penalty notice. It does not state "Notice to keeper" on it, although it does suggest this in the first paragraph?
    Last edited by Hockey27; 02-12-2017 at 1:41 PM. Reason: Additional info
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 2nd Dec 17, 2:39 PM
    • 15,918 Posts
    • 24,674 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Does the letter say anything about appealing against the charge?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Hockey27
    • By Hockey27 2nd Dec 17, 2:41 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Hockey27
    The back of the letter does give an appeals process.

    It says appeals must be received within 28 days and includes a web link and email address


    Should the letter state NTK at the top, or is it sufficient to be in the wording of the letter?
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