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  • FIRST POST
    • Berribear
    • By Berribear 18th Oct 17, 11:03 PM
    • 47Posts
    • 26Thanks
    Berribear
    CEL Claim Form - Advice on Defence Please
    • #1
    • 18th Oct 17, 11:03 PM
    CEL Claim Form - Advice on Defence Please 18th Oct 17 at 11:03 PM
    Hi Folks

    So I've just received a County Court Claim Form from Civil Emforcement Ltd

    I've completed the MCOL and will defend all of the claim, please can someone point me in the direction of a defence draft.

    The particulars of their claim are unknown as I haven't received a PCN or follow up letters. However I presume that the PCN was from a local independent supermarket car park for a car I was the registered keeper of, but have since sold. I'm guessing the PCN has been sent to the new registered keeper who chucked all correspondence in the bin

    The PCN was almost certainly issued when I was the registered keeper of the vehicle , as the new registered keeper lives half way across the country

    thanks
Page 3
    • Berribear
    • By Berribear 7th Nov 17, 8:57 AM
    • 47 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Berribear
    Spelling mistake in the above.....should be allege
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Nov 17, 11:56 PM
    • 51,747 Posts
    • 65,388 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    PLEASE NOW forward the complaint you made to the CCBC, to another email address. We need LOTS of these to fly into a specific inbox now:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73400735#post73400735

    Once that has been done, please confirm. We need to bombard the CCBC (specifically to Amanda Beck who is aware of this scam) with evidence about CEL.

    Do this - even if you've already emailed a complaint - PLEASE forward it now!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Berribear
    • By Berribear 22nd Nov 17, 1:40 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Berribear
    A quick update..

    I haven’t received a reply from CEL after sending them the complaint letter about the backdating of PoC and asking them to send me the certificate of service.

    So I phoned the CCBC today and spoke to a very pleasant Lady and asked if they had received the N215 certificate of service from the Claimant.

    Unfortunately, the very pleasant Lady had no idea what an N215 certificate of service was, so put me on hold, she then came back with some bo**ox about not being able to challenge the claim as the DQ had been sent out. Challenge the claim!!!!!?????

    So I told her that The Civil Procedure Rules are quite clear, Practice Direction Paragraph 6.1 Particulars of claim and certificate of service (2) The Claimant must file a certificate of service in form N215 at the County Court Business Centre within 14 days of service of the particulars of claim on the defendant.

    I asked again if the Court had received the certificate of service. She seemed quite shocked by that and ummed and arrred, then put me on hold again.

    She came back and stated that they had no record of the N215 form on my file.

    So what to do next about the certificate of service, as I’m very worried that the CCBC haven’t got a clue what they are doing?

    Do I write back to CEL and request the certificate of service??

    Some advice would be welcome on the best course of action

    Thanks
    • Berribear
    • By Berribear 22nd Nov 17, 9:16 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Berribear
    Done but it bounced the email back saying that the bulk centre email does not receive emails
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Nov 17, 9:23 PM
    • 4,747 Posts
    • 3,090 Thanks
    KeithP
    Done but it bounced the email back saying that the bulk centre email does not receive emails
    Originally posted by Berribear
    Check other CEL threads.
    This issue has been discussed ad nauseam.
    .
    • Berribear
    • By Berribear 23rd Nov 17, 12:21 AM
    • 47 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Berribear
    KeithP, please clarify, when you say this has been discussed to the point of nausea, are you referring to the CCBC email address not being correct, or the issue of CEF not sending the certificate of service to the CCBC??
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 23rd Nov 17, 12:47 AM
    • 4,747 Posts
    • 3,090 Thanks
    KeithP
    Stick bounce back into the forum search facility, choose the show posts option and you will see many explanations.

    You really need to be looking around to see how others are coping with CEL issues.
    .
    • Berribear
    • By Berribear 23rd Nov 17, 1:01 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Berribear
    Stick bounce back into the forum search facility, choose the show posts option and you will see many explanations.

    You really need to be looking around to see how others are coping with CEL issues.
    Originally posted by KeithP

    Found it, thank you Keith P


    I've just responded to the bounce back email with the following:-


    "Dear Amanda,

    Please could you confirm you have received my complaint about the claimant back dating the Particulars of Claim

    I also rang the court yesterday 22/11/17 at 12.50pm to ask if you had received the N215 certificate of service from the claimant, to confirm the date of service of the particulars of claim. The lady on the phone didn't seem to know what an N215 certificates of service was, however I asked if she could check my file my court file to confirm if it had been received or not, the lady put me on hold, but after a while came back and confirmed the court had not received the certificate of service.

    Please could I ask that you confirm in writing by return that the court has not received the certificate of service ?

    Regards,

    XXXXXX"


    Hopefully she'll reply and confirm CoS hasn't been recieved
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 23rd Nov 17, 1:30 PM
    • 1,756 Posts
    • 2,870 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    CEL have filed N215s on some cases I've read.


    However, nobody has yet been able to establish what the form actually says. Does it state that service was by post on 11 October, or the real date?


    If the N215 contains inaccurate information it's potentially a serious matter because the form contains a statement of truth.


    If one is filed in your case, please try to get a copy of it or at least get them to tell you the date it claims the PoC were posted to you.
    • Berribear
    • By Berribear 23rd Nov 17, 2:46 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Berribear
    CEL have filed N215s on some cases I've read.


    However, nobody has yet been able to establish what the form actually says. Does it state that service was by post on 11 October, or the real date?


    If the N215 contains inaccurate information it's potentially a serious matter because the form contains a statement of truth.


    If one is filed in your case, please try to get a copy of it or at least get them to tell you the date it claims the PoC were posted to you.
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123

    Ok I'll let you know, although I don't hold out much hope of getting the dates, as the 2 emails I;ve sent have now been bounced back. I've just tried the alternative email with the above request for confirmation, so lets see what the brings.


    I also intend to write two letters to CEL again today, as it has been over two weeks since I sent the first letter about backdating the PoC and the failure to send the contract the allege the keeper is in breech of.


    It probably won't achieve anything, but it all the correspondence will hopefully improve my witness statement
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 23rd Nov 17, 3:14 PM
    • 1,756 Posts
    • 2,870 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    the emails will bounce back, but there's evidence they are still being read because Amanda (or someone else) is responding to them, in spite of the bounce back messages saying they aren't being read.
    • Berribear
    • By Berribear 23rd Nov 17, 6:24 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Berribear
    LoC - Please Review
    As I have not recived a reply from CEL for the two complaints of:-


    • Backdating PoC
    • Failure to Send Contract with PoC
    I intend to write two more letters to them, LoC, please could you review them before I send them, if you can spare the time?:-




    Dear Civil Enforcement Ltd


    RE - Claim Number XXXXXX

    I wrote to you on the 3rd November to draw your attention to the fact that you had deliberately backdated the Particulars Of Claim which were served separate to the Claim Form pursuant to CPR Rule 7.4(1)(b).








    I have not received a reply from you explaining why you deliberately, backdated the Particulars of Claim, nor have I received the certificate of service that I requested you to send.


    I have contacted the County Court Business Centre, who have confirmed that they have not received a signed N215 Certificate of Service, which would be supported by a Statement of Truth.


    This would appear to be a clear attempt to avoid the consequences, via CPR 32.14, of filing false evidence.





    Where there is an assertion that documents have been deliberately backdated / or misdated and that a correctly filed and signed N215 would make this evident then I believe this is very important as it constitutes an attempt to hide this breach from the court.




    Given CEL's multiple breaches of the CPR, I will be writing to the Court to give consideration, under its inherent case management powers, to strike out the claim. The court's powers to do so are contained in CPR Rule 1.4(2)(c) and Practice Direction 26, paragraph 5.1.

    If the court is not minded to make an order of its own volition, then the court has the power to treat this letter as an application rather than asking me to issue a Notice of Application – the power to do this is contained in CPR Part 23.3(2)(b) which provides specifically that the court may dispense with the requirement for an application notice.
    The court’s powers to strike out a claim are contained in CPR Rule 3.4 and the “test” is if:
    (a) the statement of case discloses no reasonable grounds for bringing a claim; or
    (b) the statement of case is an abuse of the court’s process; or
    (c) there has been a failure to comply with a Rule, Practice Direction or Order.



    Due to your flagrant disregard of the CPR rules, I would advise Civil Enforcement to withdraw proceedings in this matter and expect to hear from you within 14 days to confirm this



    Yours Faithfully,

    XXXXX





    Dear Civil Enforcement Ltd

    23rd November 2017


    RE - Claim Number XXXXX




    I wrote to you on the 7th November to draw to your attention to the fact that you failed to provide me with a copy of the contract with the claim form you sent. You are therefore in breach of the Civil Procedure Rules allege

    As I have not received a reply from with a copy of the contract you allege I am in breach of, I will be writing to the court to draw their attention to
    CEL's multiple breaches of the CPR. I will asking the Court to give consideration, under its inherent case management powers, to strike out the claim. The court's powers to do so are contained in CPR Rule 1.4(2)(c) and Practice Direction 26, paragraph 5.1.




    If the court is not minded to make an order of its own volition, then the court has the power to treat this letter as an application rather than asking me to issue a Notice of Application – the power to do this is contained in CPR Part 23.3(2)(b) which provides specifically that the court may dispense with the requirement for an application notice.
    The court’s powers to strike out a claim are contained in CPR Rule 3.4 and the “test” is if:
    (a) the statement of case discloses no reasonable grounds for bringing a claim; or
    (b) the statement of case is an abuse of the court’s process; or
    (c) there has been a failure to comply with a Rule, Practice Direction or Order.



    Due to your flagrant disregard of the CPR rules, I would advise Civil Enforcement to withdraw proceedings in this matter and expect to hear from you within 14 days to confirm this





    Yours Faithfully,



    XXXX






























    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 24th Nov 17, 9:31 AM
    • 1,756 Posts
    • 2,870 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123

    Dear Civil Enforcement Ltd


    RE - Claim Number XXXXXX

    I wrote to you on the 3rd November to draw your attention to the fact that you had deliberately backdated the Particulars Of Claim which were served separate to the Claim Form pursuant to CPR Rule 7.4(1)(b).








    I have not received a reply from you explaining why you deliberately, backdated the Particulars of Claim, nor have I received the certificate of service that I requested you to send.


    I have contacted the County Court Business Centre, who have confirmed that they have not received a signed N215 Certificate of Service, which would be supported by a Statement of Truth.


    This would appear to be a clear attempt to avoid the consequences, via CPR 32.14, of filing false evidence.





    Where there is an assertion that documents have been deliberately backdated / or misdated and that a correctly filed and signed N215 would make this evident then I believe this is very important as it constitutes an attempt to hide this breach from the court.




    Given CEL's multiple breaches of the CPR, I will be writing to the Court to give consideration, under its inherent case management powers, to strike out the claim. The court's powers to do so are contained in CPR Rule 1.4(2)(c) and Practice Direction 26, paragraph 5.1.

    If the court is not minded to make an order of its own volition, then the court has the power to treat this letter as an application rather than asking me to issue a Notice of Application – the power to do this is contained in CPR Part 23.3(2)(b) which provides specifically that the court may dispense with the requirement for an application notice.
    The court’s powers to strike out a claim are contained in CPR Rule 3.4 and the “test” is if:
    (a) the statement of case discloses no reasonable grounds for bringing a claim; or
    (b) the statement of case is an abuse of the court’s process; or
    (c) there has been a failure to comply with a Rule, Practice Direction or Order.



    Due to your flagrant disregard of the CPR rules, I invite would advise Civil Enforcement you to withdraw your claim proceedings in this matter and expect to hear from you within 14 days to confirm this



    Yours Faithfully,

    XXXXX





    Dear Civil Enforcement Ltd

    23rd November 2017


    RE - Claim Number XXXXX




    I wrote to you on the 7th November to draw to your attention to the fact that you failed to provide me with a copy of the contract with the claim form you sent. You are therefore in breach of the Civil Procedure Rules allege

    As I have not received a reply from with a copy of the contract you allege I am in breach of, I will be writing to the court to draw their attention to
    CEL's multiple breaches of the CPR. I will asking the Court to give consideration, under its inherent case management powers, to strike out the claim. The court's powers to do so are contained in CPR Rule 1.4(2)(c) and Practice Direction 26, paragraph 5.1.




    If the court is not minded to make an order of its own volition, then the court has the power to treat this letter as an application rather than asking me to issue a Notice of Application – the power to do this is contained in CPR Part 23.3(2)(b) which provides specifically that the court may dispense with the requirement for an application notice.
    The court’s powers to strike out a claim are contained in CPR Rule 3.4 and the “test” is if:
    (a) the statement of case discloses no reasonable grounds for bringing a claim; or
    (b) the statement of case is an abuse of the court’s process; or
    (c) there has been a failure to comply with a Rule, Practice Direction or Order.



    Due to your flagrant disregard of the CPR rules, I invite would advise Civil Enforcement you to withdraw your claim proceedings in this matter and expect to hear from you within 14 days to confirm this



    Yours Faithfully,

    XXXX

    Originally posted by Berribear
    I would delete the bits about court powers, just say you'll be inviting the court to strike the claim and invite them to withdraw.
    Good letters.
    • Berribear
    • By Berribear 24th Nov 17, 9:38 AM
    • 47 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Berribear
    Thank you LoC, you're a Star!
    • Berribear
    • By Berribear 29th Nov 17, 6:55 PM
    • 47 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    Berribear
    I have just completed and posted my N180 DQ (signed for) to the Court and served a copy (proof of postage) to CEL


    I included a version of ixworth's superb complaint letter about lack of N215 form and edited it slightly, as my PoC wasn't sent late, it was just backdated. Letter here for anyone who wants to copy and edit.


    Thanks ixworth:-




    County Court Business Centre
    St Katharine's House,
    21-27 St Katharine's St,
    Northampton NN1 2LH


    Claim Number DXXXXXX
    Dear Sir/Madam,

    I am submitting a completed Directions Questionnaire N180 with regard to Claim Form XXXXXX. I am including this letter to bring to the Court’s attention to some facts about the way that this claim is being handled by the Claimant (Civil Enforcement Limited (CEL)).



    Deliberately Backdating the Particulars of Claim
    The Claim form issued on 10th October 2017, gave virtually no indication of what the claim related to; instead stating that further Particulars of Claim would be provided to me within 14 days after service of the claim form.
    The further Particulars of Claim and covering letter were sent on 27th October 2017, however both PoC and the covering letter were backdated to the 11th October 2017. I enclose a copy of the envelope which shows that the PoC were posted on 27th October 2017, and a copy of the backdated covering letter to corroborate these dates.


    Given the fact that the separate PoC , and covering letter appear to have been generated automatically from a standard template (presumably on 11th October 2017) rather than being crafted by hand,
    I can only assume that the Claimant did this to try to gain an advantage, by making it appear that I had filed my defence late, or by confusing me into having to rush to file my defence prematurely. This is a serious matter and I request that the Court formally note this on the Court file.

    Failure to submit an N215
    I would direct you to the fact that CEL has failed to submit to the court a signed N215 Certificate of Service which would be supported by a Statement of Truth. This would appear to be a clear attempt to avoid the consequences, via CPR 32.14, of filing false evidence. I believe claimants are required to submit a signed N215 to the court whenever they provide separate PoC for an MCOL claim.

    I’m not sure of the importance of this rule under normal circumstances but where there is an assertion that documents have been deliberately backdated / or misdated and that a correctly filed and signed N215 would make this evident, then I believe this is very important as it constitutes an attempt to hide this breach from the court.


    Failure to comply with pre-court protocol
    CEL has not complied with pre-court protocol (as outlined in the new Pre Action Protocol for Debt Claims, 1 October 2017). As an example as to why this prevented a full defence being filed, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract and details of how it is claimed the driver breached its terms has never been provided to me.

    The limited information CEL eventually provided to me did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs, nor a copy of the “Letter before County Court Claim” that was supposed to have been sent to me (I have no record of having received this), nor a copy of the landowner contract under which they assert authority to operate, nor a copy of the full terms set out in the signage, nor a map showing where the signs were located etc. I understand that these should all have been produced, pursuant to paragraph 6 of the Practice Direction – Pre-Action Conduct. This constitutes a deliberate attempt to thwart any efforts to defend the claim properly or to “take stock”, pursuant to paragraph 12 of the Practice Direction.


    In Summary
    I have set out in this letter CEL’s failures to comply with the CPR. Its failure to comply with the rules put me, an ordinary Litigant in Person, at a significant disadvantage. Two examples of the prejudice caused to me is that I have been given no opportunity to consider the basis, or the strength, of the claim, and my defence to it, and no opportunity to engage in discussions with the Claimant, with a view to reaching agreement or at least narrowing the issues.

    Given CEL's multiple breaches of the CPR, I ask the court to give consideration, under its inherent case management powers, to strike out the claim. The court's powers to do so are contained in CPR Rule 1.4(2) (c) and Practice Direction 26, paragraph 5.1.

    If the court is not minded to make an order of its own volition, then the court has the power to treat this letter as an application rather than asking me to issue a Notice of Application – the power to do this is contained in CPR Part 23.3(2) (b) which provides specifically that the court may dispense with the requirement for an application notice.

    The court’s powers to strike out a claim are contained in CPR Rule 3.4 and the “test” is if:
    (a) the statement of case discloses no reasonable grounds for bringing a claim; or



    (b) the statement of case is an abuse of the court’s process; or
    (c) there has been a failure to comply with a Rule, Practice Direction or Order.

    CEL is a commercial Claimant pursuing many other claims of this nature. It must therefore have knowledge of, and understand, the Civil Procedure Rules. These sorts of blatant, and from my research, routine breaches should not be allowed because they prejudice Litigants in Person, who are not well versed in court procedures and the court rules. It is with some difficulty that I have understood the various obligations and time limits set out in the Civil Procedure Rules, as a Litigant in Person, whereas a commercial Claimant such as CEL has no such excuse.

    If the court is minded to allow this claim to continue, when it issues directions I ask that it provides for Witness Statements to be served sequentially (CEL first), due to CEL’s failure to comply with their pre-action obligations and their still inadequate Particulars of Claim. I am having difficulty understanding how CEL is going to evidence their claim and, on the assumption that they will provide this information (that I should already have had) in their Witness Statement then it appears right and fair that I should have sight of it before having to file my own evidence.


    Yours Faithfully,




    XXXXXXX (Defendant)
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