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  • FIRST POST
    • Jimmy_Boy
    • By Jimmy_Boy 17th Oct 17, 11:23 AM
    • 39Posts
    • 5Thanks
    Jimmy_Boy
    Loan for Property Purchase (not a mortgage)
    • #1
    • 17th Oct 17, 11:23 AM
    Loan for Property Purchase (not a mortgage) 17th Oct 17 at 11:23 AM
    Hi,

    There is quite a long back story to my question, but I'll keep it brief.

    I am in a position where I only need £8,000 to purchase my property and would like to get a loan for this amount, and pay it off over 30 months.

    1. Can you legally get a loan for this, or does it have to be a mortgage?

    2. The idea of a loan is more appealing to me due to being able to get it on a shorter term (mortgage is minimum of 5 years I believe), and the loan not being secured against my property. Am I right in thinking that this is a better option for me (if I can get a loan, not a mortgage)

    Thanks in advance.
Page 1
    • zx81
    • By zx81 17th Oct 17, 11:29 AM
    • 14,100 Posts
    • 14,785 Thanks
    zx81
    • #2
    • 17th Oct 17, 11:29 AM
    • #2
    • 17th Oct 17, 11:29 AM
    Many lenders will not lend for property purchases. You'll need to dig into their criteria.
    • Tarambor
    • By Tarambor 17th Oct 17, 11:38 AM
    • 1,580 Posts
    • 1,081 Thanks
    Tarambor
    • #3
    • 17th Oct 17, 11:38 AM
    • #3
    • 17th Oct 17, 11:38 AM
    As above. Nothing to say you don't want an unsecured loan for a <cough> house shaped new car though....
    • Jimmy_Boy
    • By Jimmy_Boy 18th Oct 17, 1:56 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Jimmy_Boy
    • #4
    • 18th Oct 17, 1:56 PM
    • #4
    • 18th Oct 17, 1:56 PM
    Thanks.

    If you were in my position, what would you be tempted to do? I've thought about the 'house shaped car', but not proceeded.

    I have already made an application with my bank (Barclays) for a 'Home Improvements' loan as advised by my banks personal advisor (on 09/10/2017). This was not automatically approved and had to be sent off for approval. The loan was declined as Barclays can see I am making rent payments, and would not approve a loan for £9,000 for home improvements on a rented property.

    Based on this, it was suggested to apply for a short term mortgage and have been given the details of the person to speak to at Barclays.

    I have though about applying with another bank for the loan, but this time stating it is for a car - do the banks share loan request information etc... i.e. If I now applied for a car loan with Lloyds, would they potentially say no, as my request with Barclays was a) for home improvements, b) declined.

    Thinking further ahead, this is my first property purchase and I am hoping to use it as a stepping stone to something better in the near future, for which I probably would need a mortgage. If I was to take a mortgage now, then in the future this would look better and I would have a better chance of getting a mortgage in 5-10 years time.

    The main disadvantage I see to a mortgage is that it is secured against the property, whereas a loan is not.

    Any advice welcomed.
    • Candyapple
    • By Candyapple 18th Oct 17, 2:05 PM
    • 2,480 Posts
    • 1,851 Thanks
    Candyapple
    • #5
    • 18th Oct 17, 2:05 PM
    • #5
    • 18th Oct 17, 2:05 PM
    Thanks.

    If you were in my position, what would you be tempted to do? I've thought about the 'house shaped car', but not proceeded.

    I have already made an application with my bank (Barclays) for a 'Home Improvements' loan as advised by my banks personal advisor (on 09/10/2017). This was not automatically approved and had to be sent off for approval. The loan was declined as Barclays can see I am making rent payments, and would not approve a loan for £9,000 for home improvements on a rented property.

    Based on this, it was suggested to apply for a short term mortgage and have been given the details of the person to speak to at Barclays.

    I have though about applying with another bank for the loan, but this time stating it is for a car - do the banks share loan request information etc... i.e. If I now applied for a car loan with Lloyds, would they potentially say no, as my request with Barclays was a) for home improvements, b) declined.

    Thinking further ahead, this is my first property purchase and I am hoping to use it as a stepping stone to something better in the near future, for which I probably would need a mortgage. If I was to take a mortgage now, then in the future this would look better and I would have a better chance of getting a mortgage in 5-10 years time.

    The main disadvantage I see to a mortgage is that it is secured against the property, whereas a loan is not.

    Any advice welcomed.
    Originally posted by Jimmy_Boy

    First thing's first, you need to make a complaint about this 'advisor' because their advice could very well have led to you getting a CIFAS marker for application fraud.

    As a matter of fact, they've probably screwed you over now because if you apply elsewhere for a loan, your application details are recorded by National Hunter and Synetics Solutions and any discrepancies will likely be flagged.


    CIFAS Categories Explained

    0 - Protective Registration - Recorded at the request of the person named.
    1 - False Identity Fraud - Use of a false name with an address.
    2 - Victim of Impersonation - Use, by another person, of this name and/or address.
    3 - Application Fraud (Facility Granted) - Use of name reasonably believed to be genuine, but with one or more material falsehoods in personal details or other relevant information -; the facility was granted.
    4 - Application Fraud (Facility Refused) - Use of a name reasonably believed to be genuine, but with one or more material falsehoods in personal details or other relevant information -; the facility was refused.
    5 - Conversion - Conversion (disposal or sale) of goods (to which the hirer/buyer does not have title) under a hire purchase, conditional sale, contract hire, leasing or rental agreement.
    6 - First Party Fraud - Opening an account or other facility for a fraudulent purpose, or the fraudulent misuse of an account or facility.
    7 - Aiding & Abetting - Aiding, abetting or assisting, or conspiring with, another or others to fraudulently procure credit, or other facilities, or hire products or services.
    8 - Insurance Claims Fraud - The making of a claim(s) under one or more insurance policy (ies) with one or more material falsehoods or by presenting a false or forged document.

    Rather than lie, if you need a loan for a house purchase then you need to apply for a mortgage.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Credit Cards, Loans, Credit Files & Ratings boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com
    • Jimmy_Boy
    • By Jimmy_Boy 18th Oct 17, 2:16 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Jimmy_Boy
    • #6
    • 18th Oct 17, 2:16 PM
    • #6
    • 18th Oct 17, 2:16 PM
    Yeah, see a couple of my previous posts and this is just the latest in a string of bad advice from him.

    Initially I went to the bank, asked to speak to someone about buying a property, got my personal advisor, and I asked him 'I only need £X to purchase my property, is a loan or a mortgage best?, to which I got a reply of 'A loan'. And here we are...
    • Jimmy_Boy
    • By Jimmy_Boy 18th Oct 17, 2:30 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Jimmy_Boy
    • #7
    • 18th Oct 17, 2:30 PM
    • #7
    • 18th Oct 17, 2:30 PM
    Re: CIFAS marker, how do I know if I have one, and if I do get one, how is it removed. Do they automatically get removed after x years / x months?
    • Candyapple
    • By Candyapple 18th Oct 17, 2:30 PM
    • 2,480 Posts
    • 1,851 Thanks
    Candyapple
    • #8
    • 18th Oct 17, 2:30 PM
    • #8
    • 18th Oct 17, 2:30 PM
    Oh yes, now I remember:
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5662288

    Is this the same person? Did you bother making a complaint about him?
    I'm a Board Guide on the Credit Cards, Loans, Credit Files & Ratings boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com
    • Candyapple
    • By Candyapple 18th Oct 17, 2:38 PM
    • 2,480 Posts
    • 1,851 Thanks
    Candyapple
    • #9
    • 18th Oct 17, 2:38 PM
    • #9
    • 18th Oct 17, 2:38 PM
    Re: CIFAS marker, how do I know if I have one, and if I do get one, how is it removed. Do they automatically get removed after x years / x months?
    Originally posted by Jimmy_Boy
    If you have one, you will know because you won't be able to get credit anywhere.

    It's only removed when the bank/company who placed it with CIFAS in the first place, agree to remove it.

    Read this:
    https://debtcamel.co.uk/name-fraud-database/

    CIFAS marker lasts for 6 years and is very serious. Even any existing bank accounts/credit cards you hold will likely be closed once they get wind you've got a fraud marker against you. No car insurance either, only 2 companies who would insure you at sky high prices.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Credit Cards, Loans, Credit Files & Ratings boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com
    • Jimmy_Boy
    • By Jimmy_Boy 18th Oct 17, 2:56 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Jimmy_Boy
    Jeees, this just gets worse and worse. I'm looking to get a car after I done this, so will obviously need insurance. Ever since taking 'advice', things have gone to !!!!! !!!!!
    • Jimmy_Boy
    • By Jimmy_Boy 18th Oct 17, 3:04 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Jimmy_Boy
    As a matter of fact, they've probably screwed you over now because if you apply elsewhere for a loan, your application details are recorded by National Hunter and Synetics Solutions and any discrepancies will likely be flagged.
    Originally posted by Candyapple
    I'm trying to fully understand the potential consequences... are you saying

    A) I may already have a CIFAS marker due to this
    B) Applying for another loan elsewhere will give me a CIFAS marker, but currently I should be ok
    C) I should currently be ok, and applying for a mortgage should not trigger a CIFAS marker, as this is the correct type of borrowing for the purpose.

    I'm hoping it's C. Pretty peed off to be honest now.
    • Jsnb88
    • By Jsnb88 18th Oct 17, 4:23 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Jsnb88
    I wouldn’t worry to much about the CIFAS marker, the loan was declined because you pay rent, but it is not unlawful to do home improvements on homes you rent, the loan was declined because of there own reasons, not because they suspected you of trying to take a loan out fraudulently
    • Jimmy_Boy
    • By Jimmy_Boy 19th Oct 17, 1:12 AM
    • 39 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Jimmy_Boy
    Thanks for your reply Jsnb88, puts my mind at ease a little.
    • Herzlos
    • By Herzlos 19th Oct 17, 8:16 AM
    • 5,981 Posts
    • 5,433 Thanks
    Herzlos
    2. The idea of a loan is more appealing to me due to being able to get it on a shorter term (mortgage is minimum of 5 years I believe), and the loan not being secured against my property. Am I right in thinking that this is a better option for me (if I can get a loan, not a mortgage)

    Thanks in advance.
    Originally posted by Jimmy_Boy
    Why not just get a 5 year mortgage and pay it off early? If you take one on the Standard Variable Rate there won't be an overpayment fee. Or take out a 2 year fixed rate than have the last 6 months on SVR to get a better rate.
    • Candyapple
    • By Candyapple 19th Oct 17, 12:57 PM
    • 2,480 Posts
    • 1,851 Thanks
    Candyapple
    I wouldn’t worry to much about the CIFAS marker, the loan was declined because you pay rent, but it is not unlawful to do home improvements on homes you rent, the loan was declined because of there own reasons, not because they suspected you of trying to take a loan out fraudulently
    Originally posted by Jsnb88

    Don't be so sure of yourself and give false hope.

    From their own website for home improvement loans:
    https://www.barclays.co.uk/loans/home-improvement-loan/

    You can use your loan for almost anything, apart from:

    Business reasons
    Investments, including buying stocks and shares
    Timeshares
    Purchasing property (home improvements are fine)
    Gambling-related expenses
    Repaying CCJs (county court judgments)
    A purchase made by combining this loan with any others

    Er when has anyone who is renting ever taken out a loan for "home improvements"? They're not stupid you know. It's made worse for the OP because they clearly declined him on the grounds that he was paying rent.


    I have already made an application with my bank (Barclays) for a 'Home Improvements' loan as advised by my banks personal advisor (on 09/10/2017). This was not automatically approved and had to be sent off for approval. The loan was declined as Barclays can see I am making rent payments, and would not approve a loan for £9,000 for home improvements on a rented property.
    Originally posted by Jimmy_Boy



    I'm trying to fully understand the potential consequences... are you saying

    A) I may already have a CIFAS marker due to this
    B) Applying for another loan elsewhere will give me a CIFAS marker, but currently I should be ok
    C) I should currently be ok, and applying for a mortgage should not trigger a CIFAS marker, as this is the correct type of borrowing for the purpose.

    I'm hoping it's C. Pretty peed off to be honest now.
    Originally posted by Jimmy_Boy
    A) Yes could very well be. Where you made an application for a home improvement loan, that specific product and not just their general loans, and it was manually sent for review to their underwriters, they could clearly see that you pay rent hence the decline. So you have lied on the application. That's a Category 4 marker right there: Application Fraud (Facility Refused) - Use of a name reasonably believed to be genuine, but with one or more material falsehoods in personal details or other relevant information -; the facility was refused.

    Regardless of the "personal advisor" making the application and advising you to do so, you can guarantee that if you did have a CIFAS marker due to this, they would deny all liability.

    B) Again, yes there is a possibility. Every time you make an application for credit, all the details you enter are recorded on fraud systems to check for any inconsistencies with future applications. So where you have made an application in Sept 2017 for a home improvement loan for £9k, assuming you made one in Oct 2017 for a car loan for £9k except this time around you have stated that you are private renting instead of being a homeowner, that will be flagged in the background the second you press 'apply' and the credit check happens so your application would be referred again and likely declined and it's down to the lender's policy whether they let CIFAS know.

    C) Again, yes there is a possibility you could be ok and managed to dodge getting a marker.

    The only way you'll find out for sure is to send a SAR to CIFAS, Synetics and NH and wait for their results.

    It's one of the reasons why I said you should have complained about this person who advised you the first time around in your previous thread rather than go back to them again for more poor "advice".
    I'm a Board Guide on the Credit Cards, Loans, Credit Files & Ratings boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com
    • Jimmy_Boy
    • By Jimmy_Boy 19th Oct 17, 2:03 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Jimmy_Boy
    Don't be so sure of yourself and give false hope.

    Regardless of the "personal advisor" making the application and advising you to do so, you can guarantee that if you did have a CIFAS marker due to this, they would deny all liability.
    Originally posted by Candyapple
    I was thinking about this last night, and if it comes to it, trying to get some evidence to back up that I was only following the advice of my personal advisor, to have something to work with for removing a CIFAS marker.

    Option 1 - Sending my personal advisor an e-mail, worded in such a word that doesn't cause alarm to him, but also worded in a way that he would hopefully reply admitting that he advised me to do so.

    Option 2 - The order of events were - 1) Applied for loan, 2) Sent off for approval, 3) Declined. Now, the potentially interesting part is, the personal advisor rang me to tell me that the loan had been declined, and he mentioned something about 'coming clean' that it was for a property purchase, and that he had passed my details on to a mortgage advisor.

    The question in my mind is, where / who did he 'come clean' to, as, in my mind this is a confession of knowingly mis-advising / mis-selling.

    One argument I could make is, I was advised to take a loan with advisor knowing this was for a property purchase, and without any interaction from me, after the loan was declined, he sorted everything with regards to arranging a mortgage advisor to contact me - in other words, in order for him to do that without any input from me, that would show he was fully aware of the fact this loan was for a property purchase.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Jimmy_Boy; 19-10-2017 at 10:19 PM. Reason: Spelling / Additions
    • Jimmy_Boy
    • By Jimmy_Boy 19th Oct 17, 9:04 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Jimmy_Boy
    So... I'm starting to freak out about this a little, and am unsure what steps to take next. I don't want to inadvertently do something which makes the situation worse.

    The key thing is, I'm not sure if a CIFAS marker is immediate or applied the following month, and what affect it has on any existing credit / new credit if CIFAS marker is applied after credit granted.

    I have the following going through my head, and am trying to make an informed decision.


    1. CIFAS Marker Possibilities

    A. Immediate Marker placed on record, and already visible to lenders

    B. Marker will be placed on record / visible to lenders next month

    C. No Marker

    D. No Marker currently, but further applications may result in a marker


    2. Timelines

    A. Applied for 'Home Improvements' Loan on 09/10/2017 - was declined.

    B. After loan declined, Person directed to speak to me about a mortgage (at Barclays) went on annual leave yesterday, won't be back till 25/10/2017, so don't know how soon I could apply for a loan with them (may not be till following month). Nothing stopping me from applying elsewhere.

    C. I have to be in a position where the money is available to me for purchase, by 19/11/2017.

    D. If CIFAS Marker applied next month, then there are 10 days remaining.


    My Options Going Forward

    With the above timelines in mind, I see the following options

    1. Apply for a mortgage quick.

    a) If there is a marker on file already this will be bought to my attention (presumably). In this scenario I need to send off a SAR to CIFAS, and also start gathering evidence to make a complaint against the bank.

    b) If there is no marker on file, all other things being good, the mortgage application should be successful.

    c) If the mortgage is successful and a CIFAS marker gets applied to my name AFTER, I see two outcomes :
    i) There will be no repercussions - the mortgage has been signed and agreed.
    ii) There WILL be consequences, and I may have to pay the money back.
    d) No marker currently, making a mortgage application now WILL give me a marker. Obviously, if this is the case I should avoid applying for a mortgage at this point in time.


    2. Do not make any further credit applications. Send off a SAR request, await the outcome and make a decision based on that. This option means a potential 40 day wait, which means I will not have the money required in time.


    Does anybody have any advice about the above points I made ?

    Option 2 seems the most logical / safest, but means I would not have the money in time. Also, it means even if there are no markers on file, after waiting for the reply I would be in next month at least, and when applying for the mortgage my failed loan application would be visible to lenders. My understanding is, if I could apply for a mortgage this month, the failed loan would not be visible to lenders as the report is updated monthly.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Jimmy_Boy; 19-10-2017 at 11:42 PM. Reason: Added additional information
    • Jimmy_Boy
    • By Jimmy_Boy 23rd Oct 17, 9:43 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    Jimmy_Boy
    Im a little stuck on the best move to make going forward.

    Im thinking I need to put in a SAR request to CIFAS, and make a complaint about the personal advisor BEOFRE I do anything else? However, this screws me up in being able to get the funds in the required time.

    Like I said previously, I'm not sure if a CIFAS marker is immediate or it is 'live' the following month? And if I currently have NOT got a CIFAS marker, a mortgage application may give me a marker.

    Any advice welcome, I don't want to make things worse.
    Last edited by Jimmy_Boy; 23-10-2017 at 9:48 PM. Reason: spelling
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 23rd Oct 17, 11:23 PM
    • 2,621 Posts
    • 2,067 Thanks
    dawyldthing
    It might be 5 years but there's nothing stopping you paying it off earlier. Mine was 10 years but I paid it off in 3
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 11 stone 7lbs then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs *43lbs lost* *41lbs to go*
    Started SW16st13lbs 11/7/17 - 19 weeks in -35lbs
    3/9 to NYE 12lbs down / 4lbs to go
    2) to find new challenges
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 23rd Oct 17, 11:30 PM
    • 2,621 Posts
    • 2,067 Thanks
    dawyldthing
    Check on noodle as I think it could well show up on there if you have got one on your file
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 11 stone 7lbs then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs *43lbs lost* *41lbs to go*
    Started SW16st13lbs 11/7/17 - 19 weeks in -35lbs
    3/9 to NYE 12lbs down / 4lbs to go
    2) to find new challenges
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