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  • FIRST POST
    • Tyler119
    • By Tyler119 12th Oct 17, 8:17 AM
    • 326Posts
    • 122Thanks
    Tyler119
    Not sure what to make of this.
    • #1
    • 12th Oct 17, 8:17 AM
    Not sure what to make of this. 12th Oct 17 at 8:17 AM
    So a few months back I purchased a VW T5 Kombi van from a specialist company, who had done all manner of modifications from cosmetic to mechanical.

    A few niggles after it was delivered, but they were eventually sorted. I have since then, as it was not provided at delivery, asked for a breakdown of all the work that was carried out on the van by them.

    It has a chore to get this info, and months later, still can't get it from them. The van was advertised as having being remapped (professionally) by a highly regarded company. It was done from the stock 102bhp to 160 ps (being the euro equivalent of bhp). A significant upgrade in engine power, as well as torque.

    Through all my emails, I have been asking for documentation showing that it was indeed remapped as advertised to 160ps. My initial reason being that in the event of selling the van, I want to be able to produce the relevant paperwork to back up the asking price. Yesterday the company said they would ask the remapping company for a certificate.

    Last night I got in contact with the remapping company to actually ask if they recommended a specific engine oil. I mentioned about the certificate and they sent one straight over. I then asked for further information that actually showing that it was remapped from A to B. From there I got nowhere with them and was told there was no proof. This despite the fact that their Facebook page is littered with printouts of daily remaps showing the before and after.

    My concerns over the remapping was also brought forward as the van had to go to VW to get the limiter removed. I was speaking to a local garage, who do remapping, and the owner was suspicious as he stated that his garage can't remap an engine properly with a limiter on it and would remove it first.

    I'm getting the uncomfortable feeling that the van is not entirely what it was sold as. None of the paperwork I got on delivery shows it to be any different from when it was advertised. I took a screenshot of the advertisement. Good job really as they removed it 100% from anywhere online.

    Basically, if it turns out that it is not what was advertised, where do I stand? In my mind, I was buying a van that had been upgraded in terms of engine power by a significant amount. If it turns out that it was false, I'm not sure I would want the van.

    I would want to give them the chance to rectify the issue. However, I was onto my garage friend this morning and after giving him the engine number, he claims that he would never be able to get that one to the advertised 160ps.

    As the title said, not sure what to make of this. It was a very expensive purchase and I assumed purchasing it from a very reputable company, that everything would be right.
Page 1
    • paddyandstumpy
    • By paddyandstumpy 12th Oct 17, 8:24 AM
    • 840 Posts
    • 349 Thanks
    paddyandstumpy
    • #2
    • 12th Oct 17, 8:24 AM
    • #2
    • 12th Oct 17, 8:24 AM
    If this was so important to you shouldn't you have done due diligence before parting with your money?
    • Tyler119
    • By Tyler119 12th Oct 17, 8:28 AM
    • 326 Posts
    • 122 Thanks
    Tyler119
    • #3
    • 12th Oct 17, 8:28 AM
    • #3
    • 12th Oct 17, 8:28 AM
    If this was so important to you shouldn't you have done due diligence before parting with your money?
    Originally posted by paddyandstumpy
    What sort of due diligence would I have been able to do that would have help with this situation? I did the normal ones, hpi check etc. it is not like it was a back street dealer, it is an extremely well-known specialist.
    • paddyandstumpy
    • By paddyandstumpy 12th Oct 17, 8:50 AM
    • 840 Posts
    • 349 Thanks
    paddyandstumpy
    • #4
    • 12th Oct 17, 8:50 AM
    • #4
    • 12th Oct 17, 8:50 AM
    Asking for copies of the paperwork substantiating their claims of the BHP increase?
    • ssparks2003
    • By ssparks2003 12th Oct 17, 9:36 AM
    • 170 Posts
    • 235 Thanks
    ssparks2003
    • #5
    • 12th Oct 17, 9:36 AM
    • #5
    • 12th Oct 17, 9:36 AM
    You have relied on someone saying that have completed work without any proof it has been done, perhaps a dyno-test report, evidence of the work completed, receipts for work completed would have given you more to go on?
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam3; 12-10-2017 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Quoting deleted post
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 12th Oct 17, 11:02 AM
    • 861 Posts
    • 575 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    • #6
    • 12th Oct 17, 11:02 AM
    • #6
    • 12th Oct 17, 11:02 AM
    But you say in your OP that you want the paperwork evidencing the remapping to justify the price if you want to sell it on. Surely then, by the same logic, you should have seen the paperwork before buying it yourself?
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam3; 12-10-2017 at 11:42 AM. Reason: Quoting deleted post
    • George Michael
    • By George Michael 12th Oct 17, 11:21 AM
    • 2,851 Posts
    • 3,849 Thanks
    George Michael
    • #7
    • 12th Oct 17, 11:21 AM
    • #7
    • 12th Oct 17, 11:21 AM
    What was the van purchased for? (a private run-around or do you use it as part of a business).
    • Tyler119
    • By Tyler119 12th Oct 17, 11:22 AM
    • 326 Posts
    • 122 Thanks
    Tyler119
    • #8
    • 12th Oct 17, 11:22 AM
    • #8
    • 12th Oct 17, 11:22 AM
    In fact, they have provided proof that work was done. A certificate saying that it was professionally remapped. However, everyone is refusing to confirm that it was remapped to what was advertised when purchasing said van.

    When I bought our Audi from a main dealership, they never gave me paperwork confirming the exact bhp. They didn't need to ask that details like that is tied to the model of the car. In this case, the van was advertised with a particular specification. There was no reason to doubt that everything was as advertised.

    My attitude, that is funny. The first response was literally blaming me. Though it appears that the business in question has zero responsibility with regards to consumer rights, yes?

    I forget why I rarely ask for help here as some just want to give off the attitude of...your fault...your fault, rather than providing constructive help towards resolving the ongoing situation.

    I'm going to ask my questionable mars bar for help.
    • citykid5
    • By citykid5 12th Oct 17, 11:30 AM
    • 777 Posts
    • 352 Thanks
    citykid5
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 17, 11:30 AM
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 17, 11:30 AM
    Would it be worth putting it on a rolling rd to either confirm or dismiss you're fears Tyler ? At least that way you'd also have some evidence to help with your dispute .
    I'm a lion bar man myself lol
    • Rainbowgirl84
    • By Rainbowgirl84 12th Oct 17, 11:50 AM
    • 485 Posts
    • 833 Thanks
    Rainbowgirl84
    Would it be worth putting it on a rolling rd to either confirm or dismiss you're fears Tyler ? At least that way you'd also have some evidence to help with your dispute .
    I'm a lion bar man myself lol
    Originally posted by citykid5


    Every time, Mars bars are for wimps!


    Bite it crunch it chew it!:-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USr77DOkS2A
    • Tyler119
    • By Tyler119 12th Oct 17, 11:54 AM
    • 326 Posts
    • 122 Thanks
    Tyler119
    Would it be worth putting it on a rolling rd to either confirm or dismiss you're fears Tyler ? At least that way you'd also have some evidence to help with your dispute .
    I'm a lion bar man myself lol
    Originally posted by citykid5
    I'm thinking I may need to. The company I purchased from have been excellent, if slow, with everything else. I don't think for a second that anything was done intentionally, I believe that a genuine mistake has been made. I just wish they would tell me and then we could go about getting it rectified. I know for a fact that the engine can be remapped with mechanical changes, higher than what was advertised when I purchased. it is not a case of I don't want the van, apart from this, I love the van. You know how it is, when you buy something, you want it to be what was advertised.

    Thanks for the suggestion.
    • Tyler119
    • By Tyler119 12th Oct 17, 11:55 AM
    • 326 Posts
    • 122 Thanks
    Tyler119
    Every time, Mars bars are for wimps!


    Bite it crunch it chew it!:-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USr77DOkS2A
    Originally posted by Rainbowgirl84
    Finally a good answer to my problems in life. Maybe I show follow up the mars bar with a lion bar...see if they compliment each other
    • Tyler119
    • By Tyler119 12th Oct 17, 11:56 AM
    • 326 Posts
    • 122 Thanks
    Tyler119
    What was the van purchased for? (a private run-around or do you use it as part of a business).
    Originally posted by George Michael
    Hi George,

    It was purchased for both my business and personal use at weekends etc.
    • takman
    • By takman 12th Oct 17, 12:54 PM
    • 2,695 Posts
    • 2,244 Thanks
    takman
    Yeah I was hoping to buy a mars bar today. I can't wait to ask Tesco for paperwork to prove that inside the wrapper is indeed a mars bar
    Originally posted by Tyler119
    A compatible situation would be for Tescos to be selling improved mars bars which have been modified and they claim specific improvements to them. But they are selling them in their original wrappers which don't mention these improvements but they are charging a slightly higher price for them.

    No reasonable person would buy them unless the wrappers (paperwork) showed exactly how they were improved.

    In fact, they have provided proof that work was done. A certificate saying that it was professionally remapped. However, everyone is refusing to confirm that it was remapped to what was advertised when purchasing said van.

    When I bought our Audi from a main dealership, they never gave me paperwork confirming the exact bhp. They didn't need to ask that details like that is tied to the model of the car. In this case, the van was advertised with a particular specification. There was no reason to doubt that everything was as advertised.

    My attitude, that is funny. The first response was literally blaming me. Though it appears that the business in question has zero responsibility with regards to consumer rights, yes?

    I forget why I rarely ask for help here as some just want to give off the attitude of...your fault...your fault, rather than providing constructive help towards resolving the ongoing situation.

    I'm going to ask my questionable mars bar for help.
    Originally posted by Tyler119
    The issue is that there are plenty of people who remap cars using maps they simply download from the internet. They then make claims of increases in BHP and Torque without the vehicle going anywhere near a rolling road.

    This is why you always need to see a dyno print out because the salesperson may simply be passing on these dubious claims as the truth to sell the vehicle.

    I'm surprised you haven't got it tested on a dyno yet, that would have been the first thing i did. Then you have proof that what they have said it not true, but i very much doubt they would want to spend the money to get the horsepower to the claimed amount. So you need to decide what you want them to do about it.
    • Tyler119
    • By Tyler119 12th Oct 17, 1:14 PM
    • 326 Posts
    • 122 Thanks
    Tyler119
    A compatible situation would be for Tescos to be selling improved mars bars which have been modified and they claim specific improvements to them. But they are selling them in their original wrappers which don't mention these improvements but they are charging a slightly higher price for them.

    No reasonable person would buy them unless the wrappers (paperwork) showed exactly how they were improved.



    The issue is that there are plenty of people who remap cars using maps they simply download from the internet. They then make claims of increases in BHP and Torque without the vehicle going anywhere near a rolling road.

    This is why you always need to see a dyno print out because the salesperson may simply be passing on these dubious claims as the truth to sell the vehicle.

    I'm surprised you haven't got it tested on a dyno yet, that would have been the first thing i did. Then you have proof that what they have said it not true, but i very much doubt they would want to spend the money to get the horsepower to the claimed amount. So you need to decide what you want them to do about it.
    Originally posted by takman

    You are not entirely on the mark there. They were not selling the van, as in advertising it as being the same as the original as they were advertising it as having a,b and c. The tuning company they use is one of the top in the country and is a household name. There are no downloaded from the internet files used here.

    The issue here is that neither the remapping company or the dealership want to comment on this entire issue. I had no reason to test the engine following purchase, as purchasing from a household name, doesn't seem appropriate. They sell dozens of vans each week and I bet no one does that.

    As I said, I believe a mistake has been made. Just wondered where I stand, not what I should have done, as there is always going to be a what more could i have done.
    • SuperHan
    • By SuperHan 12th Oct 17, 1:45 PM
    • 1,973 Posts
    • 1,141 Thanks
    SuperHan
    I think everyone has been grossly unfair here.


    In a normal B2C purchase, the CRA apply to prevent the consumer from having to do any due diligence. Business cannot incorrectly advertise a product without any recourse. This isn't a caveat emptor purchase.


    This may be complicated by the fact it's a B2B transaction, but I think SoGA still applies to such transactions to the extent that goods must be "as described".


    If they are not as described, the buyer is entitled to some sort of remedy.


    OP I'd suggest trying to prove the current "mapping" of the van. If it's as described, you may lose a bit of money in finding out. If it's not, you should be able to make a claim against the seller.
    • Tyler119
    • By Tyler119 12th Oct 17, 3:05 PM
    • 326 Posts
    • 122 Thanks
    Tyler119
    I think everyone has been grossly unfair here.


    In a normal B2C purchase, the CRA apply to prevent the consumer from having to do any due diligence. Business cannot incorrectly advertise a product without any recourse. This isn't a caveat emptor purchase.


    This may be complicated by the fact it's a B2B transaction, but I think SoGA still applies to such transactions to the extent that goods must be "as described".


    If they are not as described, the buyer is entitled to some sort of remedy.


    OP I'd suggest trying to prove the current "mapping" of the van. If it's as described, you may lose a bit of money in finding out. If it's not, you should be able to make a claim against the seller.
    Originally posted by SuperHan
    Thanks for the comment, which makes alot of sense. While I purchased it for business use, it wasn't purchased as a business van directly, if that makes sense. At the time I was back and forth with the idea of having a small van for work. However, once I personally purchased the van I decided I wanted to use it also for work and consequently changed my insurance to accomodate this.

    I believe that you are correct that as a consumer purchasing from a business, and not privately, that the only due diligence necessary was the same as purchasing a car, hpi checks etc.

    The company in question has not responded today, so I will need to leave it till I get back from holiday. I am going to suggest to them, that if they know a mistake was made, then all I want is for the remapping to be redone to what was advertised so I am not in a worse position. I don't want compensation, or to reject the van or anything like that. The truth is, apart from this, the van is awesome and suits my needs.

    Thanks again for a more levelled response.
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