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  • FIRST POST
    • Jaglad111
    • By Jaglad111 11th Oct 17, 10:39 PM
    • 127Posts
    • 188Thanks
    Jaglad111
    Anybody to blame or just one of those things?
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:39 PM
    Anybody to blame or just one of those things? 11th Oct 17 at 10:39 PM
    Hi all

    FTB's here, about to exchange on our forever home. The final query came back today and it now looks liable to collapse the chain!

    The house is 4 bed detached, advertised as living room, playroom and dining room on the ground floor.
    The valuation picked up that the playroom was a converted garage so obviously our solicitor enquired about building regs and permissions from the freeholder. After weeks of fobbing off and everything else back I get an email saying no building reg certification was carried out and the freeholder was unaware of change of use.

    The current vendor bought in 2011 under the same circumstances as the work was completed in 2002. They applied for regs in 2012 but cancelled the day of the inspection for reasons only known to them. The email also states the vendor is not preparred to have it checked by an inspector.

    About an hour prior to this the EA's rang mumbling on about just take an indemity or the chain will collapse. He was obviously aware of the problem before me!

    Now nearly £3k spent (broker fee's, valuation, solicitors) and it looks like it will collapse the sale. Is this the kind of thing EA's should know or the vendor should declare? Surely it shouldn't get this far with such a major problem? Advice greatly appreciated.
Page 1
    • Sazzy1980
    • By Sazzy1980 11th Oct 17, 10:46 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Sazzy1980
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:46 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:46 PM
    It's been standing as a room for over 15 years - take the indemnity of its required by your mortgage lender (usually is even though they are generally worthless policies anyway) and look forward to moving into your new home.
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 11th Oct 17, 10:48 PM
    • 5,952 Posts
    • 5,712 Thanks
    davidmcn
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:48 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:48 PM
    What advice is your solicitor giving? If it can be covered by an indemnity policy (not sure if five years ago is long enough to hope that building control will have forgotten about the inspection request), it doesn't sound like a fundamental problem to me, so what's all this talk about "collapsing the chain"?
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 11th Oct 17, 10:52 PM
    • 1,752 Posts
    • 4,747 Thanks
    Red-Squirrel
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:52 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:52 PM
    I'd just get the indemnity and move in. It might be a bit colder than the rest of the house but if its a playroom it won't especially matter!
    • Jaglad111
    • By Jaglad111 11th Oct 17, 11:04 PM
    • 127 Posts
    • 188 Thanks
    Jaglad111
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:04 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:04 PM
    Thanks, the solicitor has said he doesn't recommend proceeding without the cert as we would be unable to sell, and the freeholder (who is now aware) hasn't granted any permissions. My concern is that the floor is inadequate and over time damp will become and issue.

    He hasn't suggested an indemnity so I'm guessing its not an option. I also suspect the buildings insurance would be invalid.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 11th Oct 17, 11:10 PM
    • 1,752 Posts
    • 4,747 Thanks
    Red-Squirrel
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:10 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:10 PM
    Thanks, the solicitor has said he doesn't recommend proceeding without the cert as we would be unable to sell, and the freeholder (who is now aware) hasn't granted any permissions. My concern is that the floor is inadequate and over time damp will become and issue.

    He hasn't suggested an indemnity so I'm guessing its not an option. I also suspect the buildings insurance would be invalid.
    Originally posted by Jaglad111
    I'm guessing you don't want the house anymore as you're assuming that rather than actually finding out?

    Loads of houses have garage conversions, lots are done quite informally, lots get sold all the time with indemnity policies in place and lots of people live in those houses without ever having a problem?

    Why are you worried about the floor? Did you notice a problem when you viewed?
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 11th Oct 17, 11:15 PM
    • 5,952 Posts
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    davidmcn
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:15 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:15 PM
    He hasn't suggested an indemnity so I'm guessing its not an option.
    Originally posted by Jaglad111
    Why are you guessing rather than asking?
    I also suspect the buildings insurance would be invalid.
    Why? Does your proposal form ask any relevant questions?
    • kinger101
    • By kinger101 11th Oct 17, 11:25 PM
    • 3,887 Posts
    • 5,307 Thanks
    kinger101
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:25 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:25 PM
    "The current vendor bought in 2011 under the same circumstances as the work was completed in 2002. They applied for regs in 2012 but cancelled the day of the inspection for reasons only known to them."

    On this basis, any indemnity would be invalid, as a planning authority would have been made aware of the work. On this basis, the vendor should have also made a declaration on section 4.1 of the TA6 form.

    Could you confirm what they have written there?

    You'd be able to sell without regs or indemnity, provided you placed all the cards face up on the table regarding the lack thereoff. Whether it affects the valuation is a matter for you and your lender.
    • Jaglad111
    • By Jaglad111 11th Oct 17, 11:26 PM
    • 127 Posts
    • 188 Thanks
    Jaglad111
    • #9
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:26 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:26 PM
    Lots of people are stupid. Regs exist for a very good reason. I really want the house. Why would you have major buildings works and not get it signed off?

    An indemnity only protects your pocket, not your families safety and well being.
    • Jaglad111
    • By Jaglad111 11th Oct 17, 11:28 PM
    • 127 Posts
    • 188 Thanks
    Jaglad111
    Thanks kinger, very informative post.
    I'm in work tonight so will find that information out in the morning and update the thread.
    • kinger101
    • By kinger101 11th Oct 17, 11:30 PM
    • 3,887 Posts
    • 5,307 Thanks
    kinger101
    Lots of people are stupid. Regs exist for a very good reason. I really want the house. Why would you have major buildings works and not get it signed off?

    An indemnity only protects your pocket, not your families safety and well being.
    Originally posted by Jaglad111
    True, but it's unlikely the thing will suddenly fall down given attached garages are meant to stand as long as the house, and it's already stood 15 years post conversion. So from that perspective, it's matter of can the room be safely used for the purpose you intend (safe exit in fire etc). You could always ask a builder to inspect it and comment on any shortcomings.
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 11th Oct 17, 11:38 PM
    • 5,952 Posts
    • 5,712 Thanks
    davidmcn
    True, but it's unlikely the thing will suddenly fall down given attached garages are meant to stand as long as the house, and it's already stood 15 years post conversion. So from that perspective, it's matter of can the room be safely used for the purpose you intend (safe exit in fire etc). You could always ask a builder to inspect it and comment on any shortcomings.
    Originally posted by kinger101
    Worst case scenario: convert it back into a garage.
    • eddddy
    • By eddddy 11th Oct 17, 11:44 PM
    • 5,295 Posts
    • 4,933 Thanks
    eddddy
    An indemnity only protects your pocket, not your families safety and well being.
    Originally posted by Jaglad111
    Do you mean you are worried that the building will fall down on them?

    If you are concerned about the structure of the building, you should instruct a surveyor or structural engineer to inspect it.

    If they tell you that remedial work is required to make it safe (or to improve insulation, or cure damp), you can then find out the cost - and adjust your offer, if required.

    I also suspect the buildings insurance would be invalid.
    Originally posted by Jaglad111
    That's not really correct. You probably need to start by reading a buildings insurance policy to see the type of risks it covers.
    • Mickygg
    • By Mickygg 12th Oct 17, 3:19 AM
    • 1,325 Posts
    • 1,045 Thanks
    Mickygg
    if your solicitor says don't proceed without the cert then surely when you sell that will be the same advice given. I would pull out if that's the case. In terms of blame there is little you can do, purely our fantastic house buying process allows things to get so far having spent thousands only for a sale to collapse through no fault of the buyer.
    • Jaglad111
    • By Jaglad111 12th Oct 17, 4:57 AM
    • 127 Posts
    • 188 Thanks
    Jaglad111
    Thanks everybody

    My concerns centre around 4 areas. The first being the correct insulation having been installed. The second regarding the floor and how it was raised. Thirdly the footings where the door was originally are to the correct depth (I believe 1 meter?) And finally the correct installation of the gas/electrics.

    All the above can be overcome through an independent inspection should the vendor be prepared to cover the cost.

    The final issue is the landlord/freeholder deciding they will grant permission. If these can all be overcome then we will proceed. I just dont understand how something so critical can not be disclosed at the start of the process. Maybe they thought that once we had spent money toward the purchase we would just overlook things.

    We also need to ensure we can sell it when the time comes, its part of our retirement strategy!
    • missprice
    • By missprice 12th Oct 17, 5:26 AM
    • 3,229 Posts
    • 93,875 Thanks
    missprice
    Thanks everybody

    My concerns centre around 4 areas. The first being the correct insulation having been installed. The second regarding the floor and how it was raised. Thirdly the footings where the door was originally are to the correct depth (I believe 1 meter?) And finally the correct installation of the gas/electrics.

    All the above can be overcome through an independent inspection should the vendor be prepared to cover the cost.

    The final issue is the landlord/freeholder deciding they will grant permission. If these can all be overcome then we will proceed. I just dont understand how something so critical can not be disclosed at the start of the process. Maybe they thought that once we had spent money toward the purchase we would just overlook things.

    We also need to ensure we can sell it when the time comes, its part of our retirement strategy!
    Originally posted by Jaglad111
    If you want it inspecting, you pay. What if the vendor got his mate down the street to write a report saying it's ok. He who pays the Piper gets the right tune.
    84 mortgage payments to go.

    Zero wins 2016 😥
    • eddddy
    • By eddddy 12th Oct 17, 7:39 AM
    • 5,295 Posts
    • 4,933 Thanks
    eddddy
    The final issue is the landlord/freeholder deciding they will grant permission.
    Originally posted by Jaglad111
    TBH, most freeholders would make it a condition of granting permission that building regulations and planning regulations are met.

    So if you say that you will not proceed until the vendor has the freeholder's consent, and all the freeholder's terms are met - that might encompass everything you need.

    (But you'd need to check carefully - as some freeholders might be a bit lax about that sort of thing.)
    • ProDave
    • By ProDave 12th Oct 17, 8:38 AM
    • 325 Posts
    • 394 Thanks
    ProDave
    Thanks, the solicitor has said he doesn't recommend proceeding without the cert as we would be unable to sell, and the freeholder (who is now aware) hasn't granted any permissions. My concern is that the floor is inadequate and over time damp will become and issue.

    He hasn't suggested an indemnity so I'm guessing its not an option. I also suspect the buildings insurance would be invalid.
    Originally posted by Jaglad111
    But you said it is your forever home so you won't want to be selling.

    If it is just the garage conversion, then in your own time, rip it out back to bare brick, and convert it again yourself properly with building regs and the correct levels of insulation.
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 12th Oct 17, 9:05 AM
    • 23,350 Posts
    • 88,974 Thanks
    Davesnave
    But you said it is your forever home so you won't want to be selling.
    Originally posted by ProDave
    No one knows for certain whether somewhere will become a 'forever' type home when they buy it.

    The expectation might be there, but unpredictable factors can come into play quite quickly to change that perception.

    We overlooked much duff building in order to buy our forever home, because it was priced to allow important works within budget. If the vendors had bowled us a googly like this, we'd have re-negotiated, or walked.

    That would have been the right decision, because once we'd moved-in, it was touch and go for a time whether we'd invest serious money or just tart it up and move on.

    Everyones different, but I think it can easily take a few years before the intention to make somewhere a long-stay home is confirmed.
    'A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they'll never sit in.'
    • rtho782
    • By rtho782 12th Oct 17, 9:09 AM
    • 1,008 Posts
    • 714 Thanks
    rtho782
    and everything else back I get an email saying no building reg certification was carried out and the freeholder was unaware of change of use.
    Originally posted by Jaglad111
    This 4 bed detached house is a leasehold? That would be enough for me to walk away.
    Deposit Saved since 01/12/15: £13,000 / £15,000 House Bought!

    Debt Cleared since 01/12/15: £6,000 / £7,500
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