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    • connected123
    • By connected123 11th Oct 17, 10:35 PM
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    connected123
    Dispute over ebay sale and paypal
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 17, 10:35 PM
    Dispute over ebay sale and paypal 11th Oct 17 at 10:35 PM
    I'm keeping this simple, but the bones of this are:

    I am a private seller and sold an expensive second hand item of clothing on ebay by fixed price, not in an auction mode. Returns policy was ' No returns accepted'.

    Buyer received goods describing the item as lovely but it didn't fit and asked to return it.
    Given the policy we said No. Hygiene issues come into play too.

    Buyer complained to ebay and ebay rejected buyers claim and buying something that 'didn't fit' was not an acceptable reason under ebay policy to provide buyer with cause to return.

    Buyer then went to Paypal who they paid through seeking money back under their policy, but this time accused me of fraudulently taking their money and extortion and told paypal what I allege are a pack of lies that the item wasn't as described and falling apart and paypal dispute reolution team agreed to a refund them which effectively means we have to refund the money.

    When speaking to Paypal they stated that much of my defence was not taken into account because it was done via ebay, not as it would be in a Courtroom where both side of evidence would be taken into account.

    Sounds to me a one-sided set of rules and totally wrong.

    My question to seasoned ebayers and Paypal users is what laws do selling something on ebay and payments through Paypal fall under?

    Do we not have Contract Law issues where the buyer, seeing the pictures and details of the sale item and the returns policy agrees to the purchase and so long as the item is as described (as it was) then a Contract has been entered into and therefore binding?

    What clout or legal authority do Paypal or ebay come to that have with regards to deciding who is right or wrong in this transaction?

    Paypal have instructed the return to me of this item and frankly I don't want it back if there is any likelihood the item has been worn, soiled or damaged by the buyer just to prove the point of the buyers argument it has been damaged and not in the condition when it was sent, especially when their first reason for returning this 'lovely item' was that it didn't fit?

    Being accused of fraud and extortion and defaming my character and integrity with ebay and paypal is not something I am happy about either.

    Any thoughts on how I play this out welcome. This has gone beyond just a refund now.

    Thanks
Page 1
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 11th Oct 17, 11:27 PM
    • 1,328 Posts
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    boo_star
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:27 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:27 PM
    Do we not have Contract Law issues where the buyer, seeing the pictures and details of the sale item and the returns policy agrees to the purchase and so long as the item is as described (as it was) then a Contract has been entered into and therefore binding?
    Originally posted by connected123
    We do, but there are 3 (?) different contracts here. Your contract with the seller, your contract with eBay and your contract with PayPal.

    What clout or legal authority do Paypal or ebay come to that have with regards to deciding who is right or wrong in this transaction?
    Their terms and conditions. You can take them to court if you feel there is an issue with the contract.

    Paypal have instructed the return to me of this item and frankly I don't want it back if there is any likelihood the item has been worn, soiled or damaged by the buyer just to prove the point of the buyers argument it has been damaged and not in the condition when it was sent, especially when their first reason for returning this 'lovely item' was that it didn't fit?
    Youíll have to issue a small claims case against the buyer if you believe that is what happened.

    Being accused of fraud and extortion and defaming my character and integrity with ebay and paypal is not something I am happy about either.
    Theyíre not accusing you of either, they just believed their story over yours. And FWIW I donít think they made the right decision.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 11th Oct 17, 11:48 PM
    • 11,597 Posts
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    unholyangel
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:48 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 17, 11:48 PM
    We do, but there are 3 (?) different contracts here. Your contract with the seller, your contract with eBay and your contract with PayPal.
    Originally posted by boo_star
    I think you mean OP's contract with the buyer

    I'm keeping this simple, but the bones of this are:

    I am a private seller and sold an expensive second hand item of clothing on ebay by fixed price, not in an auction mode. Returns policy was ' No returns accepted'.

    Buyer received goods describing the item as lovely but it didn't fit and asked to return it.
    Given the policy we said No. Hygiene issues come into play too.
    Originally posted by connected123
    If you are a private seller (ie selling off old personal items of your own that you no longer need with no sort of regularity) rather than a business, then you're free to not accept returns if you don't wish to. But I'd refrain from saying hygiene issues come into play when the goods were sold as secondhand as it just sounds inane/smacks of double standards.

    As for paypal, you'll have to see what their terms say in regards to disputes and whether they have followed their T&C's or not. As above, the contract you have with them (or ebay) is separate to the contract you had/have with the buyer.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 12th Oct 17, 12:09 AM
    • 1,328 Posts
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    boo_star
    • #4
    • 12th Oct 17, 12:09 AM
    • #4
    • 12th Oct 17, 12:09 AM
    I think you mean OP's contract with the buyer
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    You’re right, my mistake.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Oct 17, 12:42 AM
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    KeithP
    • #5
    • 12th Oct 17, 12:42 AM
    • #5
    • 12th Oct 17, 12:42 AM
    OP, I'm surprised you didn't post this on the ebay board.
    .
    • connected123
    • By connected123 12th Oct 17, 5:59 AM
    • 5 Posts
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    connected123
    • #6
    • 12th Oct 17, 5:59 AM
    • #6
    • 12th Oct 17, 5:59 AM
    Wow, thanks for that very informative assistance.

    I didn't put this on ebay board because ebay have closed the claim/complaint as they stated the buyer had told them they wanted to return the item as it 'didn't fit'. This doesn't therefore involve ebay as such any longer.

    I think what confuses me is how Paypal can act as judge and jury when not taking in all the evidence. That's exactly what they told me, the evidence I supplied which came in the form of the ebay message sent by the buyer was not taken into account. That was the evidence they should take into account surely?

    Paypal have that evidence, it would have thrown out the buyers claim - Paypal told me that too. Yet it's not considered. Why?

    How good is the appeal process at Paypal if they are not prepared to take this evidence supplied and what confidence can I expect to have in it?


    I appreciate this help - amazing, thank you.
    Last edited by connected123; 12-10-2017 at 6:13 AM.
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 12th Oct 17, 6:45 AM
    • 1,328 Posts
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    boo_star
    • #7
    • 12th Oct 17, 6:45 AM
    • #7
    • 12th Oct 17, 6:45 AM
    Wow, thanks for that very informative assistance.

    I didn't put this on ebay board because ebay have closed the claim/complaint as they stated the buyer had told them they wanted to return the item as it 'didn't fit'. This doesn't therefore involve ebay as such any longer.

    I think what confuses me is how Paypal can act as judge and jury when not taking in all the evidence. That's exactly what they told me, the evidence I supplied which came in the form of the ebay message sent by the buyer was not taken into account. That was the evidence they should take into account surely?

    Paypal have that evidence, it would have thrown out the buyers claim - Paypal told me that too. Yet it's not considered. Why?

    How good is the appeal process at Paypal if they are not prepared to take this evidence supplied and what confidence can I expect to have in it?


    I appreciate this help - amazing, thank you.
    Originally posted by connected123
    PayPal almost always side with buyers. This isnít new and despite it being unfortunate for whoever is on the receiving end of a claim, itís just the way it is.

    How can the buyer prove that the items were faulty upon receipt? Well the same way you can prove they werenít.

    If you think the buyer has taken advantage of you, start a claim at https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

    The judge will be a completely fair arbiter.
    • soolin
    • By soolin 12th Oct 17, 7:52 AM
    • 59,567 Posts
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    soolin
    • #8
    • 12th Oct 17, 7:52 AM
    • #8
    • 12th Oct 17, 7:52 AM
    Wow, thanks for that very informative assistance.

    I didn't put this on ebay board because ebay have closed the claim/complaint as they stated the buyer had told them they wanted to return the item as it 'didn't fit'. This doesn't therefore involve ebay as such any longer.

    I think what confuses me is how Paypal can act as judge and jury when not taking in all the evidence. That's exactly what they told me, the evidence I supplied which came in the form of the ebay message sent by the buyer was not taken into account. That was the evidence they should take into account surely?

    Paypal have that evidence, it would have thrown out the buyers claim - Paypal told me that too. Yet it's not considered. Why?

    How good is the appeal process at Paypal if they are not prepared to take this evidence supplied and what confidence can I expect to have in it?


    I appreciate this help - amazing, thank you.
    Originally posted by connected123
    There is an eBay board here on MSE - see my link.

    Firstly, please clarify exactly what case was opened in PayPal and cut and paste any 'result' from that, as it stands at the moment it doesn't make sense.

    The only cases possible on PayPal are;

    INR (item not received)
    SNAD (item not as described
    Fraudulent use of a card
    Fake item sold

    You seem to be covering the 3 latter Ines, so which was it please?

    An SNAD would have required the buyer to return the item for a refund , fraudulent use of a card is defendable with proof of postage and fake items need buyer to prove it otherwise it reverts to a SNAD claim.

    PayPal don't just give buyers money back via sellers funds just because they make a fuss.

    Ask the BG on this board to move this over to the eBay board as there will be a lot of help on there.
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
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    • connected123
    • By connected123 12th Oct 17, 8:50 AM
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    connected123
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 17, 8:50 AM
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 17, 8:50 AM
    Okay Soolin will do, thanks for that. Just to answer the above, sorry for any confusion. Issue is:

    Buyer told ebay item didn't fit and went into some detail as to how and why this 'lovely garment' didn't fit

    When ebay rejected the buyers claim they went to paypal.

    Buyer then told Paypal Item not as described and making up all kinds of excuses to suggest the item did not match the description on ebay which is utter tosh and only, I allege, a fabrication to get around the issue that they bought an item which didn't fit and realised with that excuse and the No return policy would not enable them to get a refund so changed their story to create a false environment which would be acceptable to paypal to get the money back.

    No card or payment or other issues in your list, fraudulent accusation came against me by the buyer for taking money fraudulently.

    The issue is Paypal wouldn't take the ebay evidence submitted by the buyer that it didn't fit and enhanced that issue by stating to me that had they been told that initially, the buyers claim would not have passed Go. who's committing fraud? Me or the buyer? and why isn't that evidence being taken into account?

    Just to say I have now written to Paypal asking for a review of their decision. We'll see what they say.

    I'm away for a few days now so not able to respond further until back. Not being rude, just not here so thanks for your help - it's a great help too. Thanks.
    Last edited by connected123; 12-10-2017 at 8:55 AM.
    • bris
    • By bris 12th Oct 17, 12:29 PM
    • 7,086 Posts
    • 6,103 Thanks
    bris
    There are 3 contracts at play here.


    The one with Ebay which you won simply because it didn't meet the returns criteria.


    The contract with Paypal which you lost because it did meet their returns criteria.


    Now those 2 contracts were never in your favour, they were decided without your input, you basically had no say in the way that both Ebay and Paypal work.


    Now the third contract is the only one you can actually have a say in and that is our very own contract law. You could if you can be bothered take the buyer to a small claims court and using the evidence from Ebay that they claimed the item simply didn't fit you would probably win.


    No one is committing fraud that can be proved here, you say this and they say that is a thing the small claims court see every day. The judge looks at the evidence in front of him/her and makes a decision on what evidence is more believable, thats the balance of probabilities only the small claims court has the power to use.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Oct 17, 2:56 PM
    • 4,717 Posts
    • 3,041 Thanks
    KeithP
    Wow, thanks for that very informative assistance.

    <snip the rant>


    I appreciate this help - amazing, thank you.
    Originally posted by connected123
    That's ok. You're welcome.
    .
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