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  • FIRST POST
    • chrishgt4
    • By chrishgt4 11th Oct 17, 1:21 PM
    • 44Posts
    • 10Thanks
    chrishgt4
    Overstay of 12/2 minutes
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 17, 1:21 PM
    Overstay of 12/2 minutes 11th Oct 17 at 1:21 PM
    Hi,

    I have had a ticket for an overstay of 12 minutes.

    This was from Parking Eye using ANPR.

    I am currently entering the appeal and my question is this;

    a) Does the 10 minute grace period really exist and is it enforceable? Should I include any mention of it in my appeal?

    b) Assuming that the above is true, this means it was a 2 minute overstay. Is it therefore worth arguing that:
    i) finding a parking space and exiting the car park would take longer than that, therefore there was no contravention
    ii) requesting proof that the 2 cameras (separate entrance/exit) were synchronised on the date of the alleged offense

    Also, regarding the signage - is it worth arguing that being late at night (19:30 albeit in July) that the signage is not adequately lit?

    Also, the photos only show the registration clearly and not the location. Could it be argued the car was potentially elsewhere?
    Last edited by chrishgt4; 11-10-2017 at 1:25 PM.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 11th Oct 17, 1:48 PM
    • 16,902 Posts
    • 21,012 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 17, 1:48 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Oct 17, 1:48 PM
    yes to all the above , but mainly for popla or in court

    read this thread as well as the NEWBIES sticky thread

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5723342

    if they failed POFA2012 as well as grace periods, use all of my adapted appeal

    if the NTK arrived within 14 days , then remove that part only , leaving the rest in , altering the wording slightly as there were 2 additional points in that appeal I adapted

    read post #1 of the NEWBIES thread to understand the appeal process, and post #3 to start drafting your popla appeal for later

    read the POPLA decisions thread backwards from the end to see similar cases that were won

    read the BPA CoP , clause #13 about GRACE PERIODS

    you are not the only one , this happens daily
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • happybagger
    • By happybagger 11th Oct 17, 1:49 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 51 Thanks
    happybagger
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 17, 1:49 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Oct 17, 1:49 PM
    Where was this?
    • chrishgt4
    • By chrishgt4 11th Oct 17, 2:00 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    chrishgt4
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 17, 2:00 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Oct 17, 2:00 PM
    Thanks RedX

    This is my initial appeal to PE including your wording from the thread you linked:

    Also, unfortunately they sent it well within 14 days.

    The reason it relates to July is that my address on the car was incorrect so they had to track me down!

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. PCN NO

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis.Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers, particularly on an evening in low light conditions such as when this alleged contravention occurred.

    Also, I would like to point out that inclusive of the 10 minute grace period, this constitutes an alleged 2 minute overstay. First and foremost it would almost certainly take longer than this amount of time to both find a parking space once entering the car park, and then to exit the car park after leaving the parking space, meaning that the driver was not parked here in excess of the allowed time. Also, as the time discrepancy is so small, please can you provide evidence of the calibration of each camera on the date in question, showing that these 2 cameras were correctly synchronised.

    Clause #13 of the BPA CoP applies here and this appeal, any subsequent appeal and also any court case will have this as a prominent argument as to why this invoice should be cancelled.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you have obtained the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,

    Name of Keeper
    Last edited by chrishgt4; 11-10-2017 at 2:06 PM.
    • chrishgt4
    • By chrishgt4 11th Oct 17, 2:02 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    chrishgt4
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 17, 2:02 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Oct 17, 2:02 PM
    Where was this?
    Originally posted by happybagger
    It was in Huddersfield
    • Redx
    • By Redx 11th Oct 17, 2:19 PM
    • 16,902 Posts
    • 21,012 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 17, 2:19 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Oct 17, 2:19 PM
    Thanks RedX

    This is my initial appeal to PE including your wording from the thread you linked:

    Also, unfortunately they sent it well within 14 days.

    The reason it relates to July is that my address on the car was incorrect so they had to track me down!

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. PCN NO

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis.Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers, particularly on an evening in low light conditions such as when this alleged contravention occurred.

    Also, I would like to point out that inclusive of the two grace periods (before and after the parking event) outlined in the BPA CoP dated October 2015, this constitutes an alleged 12 minute overstay which falls well within the CoP you signed up to.

    First and foremost it would almost certainly take longer than 2 minutes to find a parking space once entering the car park, and then more time to exit the car park after leaving the parking space, meaning that the driver was not parked here in excess of the allowed time catered for in that BPA CoP.

    Clause #13 of the BPA CoP applies here and this appeal, any subsequent appeal and also any court case will have this as a prominent argument as to why this invoice should be cancelled.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you have obtained the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,

    Name of Keeper
    Originally posted by chrishgt4
    I have made suitable alterations for you , because there are TWO grace periods outlined in that BPA CoP they signed up to

    so assuming 5 minutes to park up , read the signs and obtain a ticket etc , plus OVER 10 minutes to leave the site assuming there are no obstructions like other exiting vehicles, main roads being chocker etc

    you added too much flannel and also asked for ANPR evidence, all you really ask for is cancel or popla code, any other legal arguments are in your appeal to popla later

    so I simplified it down to the basics
    Last edited by Redx; 11-10-2017 at 2:21 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • chrishgt4
    • By chrishgt4 11th Oct 17, 2:28 PM
    • 44 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    chrishgt4
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 17, 2:28 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Oct 17, 2:28 PM
    I have made suitable alterations for you , because there are TWO grace periods outlined in that BPA CoP they signed up to

    so assuming 5 minutes to park up , read the signs and obtain a ticket etc , plus OVER 10 minutes to leave the site assuming there are no obstructions like other exiting vehicles, main roads being chocker etc

    you added too much flannel and also asked for ANPR evidence, all you really ask for is cancel or popla code, any other legal arguments are in your appeal to popla later

    so I simplified it down to the basics
    Originally posted by Redx
    Thank you so much! That is extremely appreciated!

    I've submitted that appeal now so will wait for POPLA and follow up.

    I'll come back to update how I get on for anyone who visits here with a similar issue in the future.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 11th Oct 17, 7:10 PM
    • 16,902 Posts
    • 21,012 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 17, 7:10 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Oct 17, 7:10 PM
    read this successful thread if you get a popla code, it will help you

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5705258
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • chrishgt4
    • By chrishgt4 1st Nov 17, 9:53 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    chrishgt4
    • #9
    • 1st Nov 17, 9:53 AM
    • #9
    • 1st Nov 17, 9:53 AM
    read this successful thread if you get a popla code, it will help you

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5705258
    Originally posted by Redx
    I've now received my POPLA code.

    Having read through the above (thanks for the link!) I've created the below appeal to POPLA

    Please can someone have a look and check I've not made any glaring errors?

    Thanks!

    Dear POPLA Adjudicator,

    POPLA Reference: REF NO.
    Incident Date: DATE
    Car Registration: REG
    PCN Number: PCN No.
    Operator Name: ParkingEye

    I am writing to challenge a parking charge notice received for parking at the CAR PARK LOCATION car park on DATE. This car park is run by ParkingEye Ltd.

    To protect the driver, they have not been named.

    My appeal as the registered keeper is as follows:
    1. Insufficient grace period
    2. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact liable for the charge.
    3. No evidence of Landowner Authority
    4. Inadequate signage


    1. No period of grace given for the driver to read the additional signs within the car park, or to exit the car park following the parking period.

    This matter appears to flow from an allegation of 'overstay' of only 12 minutes, despite the fact this is not an overstay at all and is unsupported by the BPA. The parking session on the PCN is not established by the photographs provided. Photographs taken show merely the time of entry into and exit from the car park but do not establish the time at which the parking commenced or ended.

    The driver of the car at the time was captured by ANPR cameras driving in to the car park at HH:MM:SS and driving out at HH:MM:SS on the same date. It is very clear from the evidence that ParkingEye have failed to uphold the minimum grace periods set out in the BPA Code of Practice, as the total time in the car park exceeded the allowable parking period by only 12 minutes; 2 minutes prior to parking, and 10 minutes after the parking period had ended. These few minutes are well within what an ordinary independent person assessing the facts would consider reasonable.

    The BPA Code of Practice (13.2) states that parking operators "should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission, you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action." The signage is within the car park and past the point where the ANPR camera has captured an entry time and therefore a grace period should be given to read the additional sign and decide whether to adhere to the terms of the contract or leave the car park.

    Kevin Reynolds, Head of Public Affairs and Policy at BPA states that:

    ‘There is a difference between ‘grace’ periods and ‘observation’ periods in parking and that good practice allows for this.

    “An observation period is the time when an enforcement officer should be able to determine what the motorist intends to do once in the car park. The BPA’s guidance specifically says that there must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether they want to comply with the operator’s conditions and either drive away or pay for a ticket,” he explains.

    “No time limit is specified. This is because it might take one person five minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not limited to disability.”

    The BPA’s guidance defines the ‘grace period’ as the time allowed after permitted or paid-for parking has expired but before any kind of enforcement takes place.

    Kelvin continues: “In the instance of a PCN being issued while a ticket is being purchased, the operator has clearly not given the motorist sufficient time to read the signs and comply as per the operator’s own rules. If a motorist decides they do not want to comply and leaves the car park, then a reasonable period of time should be provided also.”’

    In addition, the BPA Code of Practice (13.4) states that the parking operators “should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.”

    During a BPA Professional Development and Standards Board meeting in July 2015 it was formally agreed that relevant changes to the Code of Practice would be made to ensure compliance with the DfT guidelines regarding grace periods.

    “Implications of the 10 minute grace period were discussed and the Board agreed with suggestion by AH that the clause should comply with DfT guidelines in the English book of by-laws to encourage a single standard. Board agreed that as the guidelines state that grace periods need to exceed 10 minutes clause 13.4 should be amended to reflect a mandatory 11 minute grace period.”

    2. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact liable for the charge. In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person.

    Where a charge is aimed only at a driver then, of course, no other party can be told to pay, not by POPLA, nor the operator, nor even in court. I am the appellant throughout (as I am entitled to be), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a POFA-compliant NTK.

    The burden of proof rests with the Operator, because they cannot use the POFA in this case, to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot – they will fail to show I can be liable because the driver was not me.

    The vital matter of full compliance with the POFA was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:-

    Understanding keeper liability

    “There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

    There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time.

    Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass."

    No lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from a keeper, where an operator is NOT attempting to transfer the liability for thecharge using the POFA. This exact finding was made in a very similar case with the same style NTK in 6061796103 v ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:

    "I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal."

    3. No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

    Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.
    Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and of course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge (which cannot be assumed to be the sum in small print on a sign because template private parking terms and sums have been known not to match the actual landowner agreement).

    Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

    7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

    7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

    a) the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b) any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c) any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d) who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e) the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement


    4. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself

    There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case.

    In the Beavis case, which turned on specific facts relating only to the signs at that site and the unique interests and intentions of the landowners, the signs were unusually clear and not a typical example for this notorious industry. The Supreme Court were keen to point out the decision related to that car park and those facts only.

    In the Beavis case, the £85 charge itself was in the largest font size with a contrasting colour background and the terms were legible, fairly concise and unambiguous. There were 'large lettering' signs at the entrance and all around the car park, according to the Judges.

    This case, by comparison, does not demonstrate an example of the 'large lettering' and 'prominent signage' that impressed the Supreme Court Judges and swayed them into deciding that in the specific car park in the Beavis case alone, a contract and 'agreement on the charge' existed.

    Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately obvious as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.

    It is vital to observe, since 'adequate notice of the parking charge' is mandatory under the POFA Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice, these signs do not clearly mention the parking charge which is hidden in small print (and does not feature at all on some of the signs). Areas of this site are unsigned and there are no full terms displayed - i.e. with the sum of the parking charge itself in large lettering - at the entrance either, so it cannot be assumed that a driver drove past and could read a legible sign, nor parked near one.

    This case is more similar to the signage in POPLA decision 5960956830 on 2.6.16, where the Assessor Rochelle Merritt found as fact that signs in a similar size font in a busy car park where other unrelated signs were far larger, was inadequate:

    ''The signage is not of a good enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. [...] In addition the operators signs would not be clearly visible from a parking space [...] The appellant has raised other grounds for appeal but I have not dealt with these as I have allowed the appeal.''

    From the evidence I have seen so far, the terms appear to be displayed inadequately, in letters no more than about half an inch high, approximately. I put the operator to strict proof as to the size of the wording on their signs and the size of lettering for the most onerous term, the parking charge itself.

    ''When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. 1-2” letters (or smaller) would work just fine. However, if you are hanging banners and want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3” or even larger.''

    ''When designing an outdoor sign for your business keep in mind the readability of the letters. Letters always look smaller when mounted high onto an outdoor wall''.

    ''...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance.''

    So, a letter height of just half an inch, showing the terms and the 'charge' and placed high on a wall or pole or buried in far too crowded small print, is woefully inadequate in an outdoor car park. Given that letters look smaller when high up on a wall or pole, as the angle renders the words less readable due to the perspective and height, you would have to stand right in front of it and still need a stepladder (and perhaps a torch and/or magnifying glass) to be able to read the terms.

    Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':

    (1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.
    (2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.

    The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.

    This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports my argument, not the operator's case.

    This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.

    So, for this appeal, I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this.


    Taking into account all points made above, I request that this parking charge appeal be upheld.

    Yours faithfully

    Keeper Name
    Last edited by chrishgt4; 01-11-2017 at 10:10 AM. Reason: typos
    • chrishgt4
    • By chrishgt4 2nd Nov 17, 7:30 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    chrishgt4
    I'm going to send this tonight. If anyone has chance to have a look at it and advise me of any errors before it would be very much appreciated!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 2nd Nov 17, 8:08 AM
    • 15,906 Posts
    • 24,670 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Grace Periods - Kevin or Kelvin?

    You need to account for the usage of the GPs, it’s reading as though it’s an entitlement to a bit of extra free parking time.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • chrishgt4
    • By chrishgt4 2nd Nov 17, 8:51 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    chrishgt4
    Grace Periods - Kevin or Kelvin?

    You need to account for the usage of the GPs, itís reading as though itís an entitlement to a bit of extra free parking time.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Haha, Kelvin...good spot!!

    So with the GP part - if I follow on from the third paragraph - "...These few minutes are well within what an ordinary independent person assessing the facts would consider reasonable."

    With something along the lines of:

    "The driver took several minutes to find a parking space, and subsequently to decide to continue parking there. Combined with a reasonable amount of time to leave the car park this would have totalled over 15 minutes."
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 2nd Nov 17, 10:02 AM
    • 15,906 Posts
    • 24,670 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Something similar, but ‘over 15 minutes’ is imprecise and can look a bit stark to some assessors. There was a case where an Assessor stated that 7 minutes was enough for a particular car park.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 02-11-2017 at 10:55 AM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 2nd Nov 17, 2:12 PM
    • 4,747 Posts
    • 3,089 Thanks
    KeithP
    "The driver took several minutes to find a parking space, and subsequently to decide to continue parking there. Combined with a reasonable amount of time to leave the car park this would have totalled over 15 minutes."
    Originally posted by chrishgt4
    I would expand that to something like:
    "In this busy car park it took the driver several minutes to find a parking space.

    Around three minutes were needed for the driver to read and understand the complicated terms and subsequently to decide to continue parking there.

    Due to the sheer volume of traffic and numbers of people, together with shopping trolleys, pushchairs, etc., it took at least ten minutes to actually leave the car park.

    These activities easily account for the alleged 13 minutes overstay."
    .
    • Redx
    • By Redx 2nd Nov 17, 2:28 PM
    • 16,902 Posts
    • 21,012 Thanks
    Redx
    in post #1 it says 12 minutes alleged "overstay"

    there have been various numbers since then

    but if we assume it was 12 minutes , then it could have been say 4 or 5 minutes to enter, park up , read the signs and do whatever was required

    that is the initial grace period (which is never specified)

    and the "over 10 minutes to leave" could be anything from 1 minute to 30 minutes or 3 hours if there was some major emergency (the second grace period) - but let us assume it was 7 minutes to leave

    so lets say 5 +7

    I fail to see why any apellant would put a higher figure than the initial quoted figure in an assessors mind , dont make them think they adjudicating on 15 minutes if its only 12 total minutes (12 being closer to the qouted 10 minutes in the second part of the clause #13)

    stick to the figure and make it so that the assessor would think "yeah, it would take me 5 minutes to park up and comply with everything , and 7 minutes to leave a busy car park snarled up in the exit traffic due to the busy main road I am emerging onto"
    Last edited by Redx; 02-11-2017 at 2:35 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 2nd Nov 17, 2:31 PM
    • 7,415 Posts
    • 6,464 Thanks
    The Deep
    Did you have to drive around to find a space? If so, read this


    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/waiting-for-space-is-not-parking.html
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • chrishgt4
    • By chrishgt4 28th Nov 17, 7:50 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    chrishgt4
    Hi guys,

    So I got a reply from POPLA saying that I had not completed their postal appeals form as I had not submitted the appeal online. So I've filled that in ready to resend, but I had a look at the online appeals process and it seems to make it harder in that it limits you to 2000 characters per category and I'm way above that.

    Would you suggest trying to get it to fit into the online forms, or just resubmit by post?
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 28th Nov 17, 9:28 AM
    • 3,237 Posts
    • 3,524 Thanks
    Johno100
    Hi guys,

    So I got a reply from POPLA saying that I had not completed their postal appeals form as I had not submitted the appeal online. So I've filled that in ready to resend, but I had a look at the online appeals process and it seems to make it harder in that it limits you to 2000 characters per category and I'm way above that.

    Would you suggest trying to get it to fit into the online forms, or just resubmit by post?
    Originally posted by chrishgt4
    Not sure how computer savvy you are but perhaps convert to PDF and submit as an attachment and just state to see attachment in the online form.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 28th Nov 17, 9:33 AM
    • 16,902 Posts
    • 21,012 Thanks
    Redx
    the ideal method is a pdf

    normally people choose OTHER and attach the pdf

    if they will accept an email from you , attach the pdf to it
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • chrishgt4
    • By chrishgt4 28th Nov 17, 10:53 AM
    • 44 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    chrishgt4
    Thanks guys - I did not see the option to attach so I will do that now!
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