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  • FIRST POST
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 11th Oct 17, 12:19 PM
    • 1,933Posts
    • 702Thanks
    Stoke
    Are drivers 'at-fault' obligated to provide their dash cam?
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 17, 12:19 PM
    Are drivers 'at-fault' obligated to provide their dash cam? 11th Oct 17 at 12:19 PM
    I witnessed an accident this morning and had to stop. The driver of the car 'at-fault' (in my opinion) had a dash cam in his car. I mentioned to one of the non-fault vehicles drivers that he should try to obtain the footage, as it will obviously clear up who's at fault. Obviously the police were called, as well as an ambulance.

    However, the driver of the vehicle 'at-fault' has supposedly told the police that no dash cam was in the car and the police failed to obtain it.

    Got me thinking? Do you have to incriminate yourself if you haven't declared the dash cam to your insurance? It is evidence, but we have the right the silence, do we have the right to withhold something that would incriminate us?
Page 3
    • matttye
    • By matttye 11th Oct 17, 10:08 PM
    • 4,724 Posts
    • 2,979 Thanks
    matttye
    No, but you were talking about the power to enter a vehicle.
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    Not when I was replying to AdrianC I wasn't. That was a separate discussion.
    What will your verse be?

    R.I.P Robin Williams.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 11th Oct 17, 10:54 PM
    • 398 Posts
    • 188 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    Not when I was replying to AdrianC I wasn't. That was a separate discussion.
    Originally posted by matttye
    So you're in agreement there's no power of entry without an indictable offence?
    • wgl2014
    • By wgl2014 11th Oct 17, 11:35 PM
    • 314 Posts
    • 171 Thanks
    wgl2014
    And what indictable offence would you suspect?
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    Dangerous driving? Other offences are available
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 12th Oct 17, 9:20 AM
    • 398 Posts
    • 188 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    Dangerous driving? Other offences are available
    Originally posted by wgl2014
    Such as? You’d be struggling with dangerous following a simple accident.
    • wgl2014
    • By wgl2014 12th Oct 17, 9:30 AM
    • 314 Posts
    • 171 Thanks
    wgl2014
    Dangerous driving? Other offences are available
    Originally posted by wgl2014
    Such as? You’d be struggling with dangerous following a simple accident.
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    Following a 'simple' accident it's unlikely there would be any inclination or need to get hold of the footage so it wouldn't be an issue however it's not difficult to form suspicion of an offence even if later on there would be insufficient evidence to charge it.

    Please don't take my musings as implying there would be a cover all power at any accident to search vehicles and seize evidence, all depends on the circumstances. Proportionate, necessary etc etc........
    • maisie cat
    • By maisie cat 12th Oct 17, 9:41 AM
    • 245 Posts
    • 286 Thanks
    maisie cat
    Very useful
    I'm an accredited police station representative.

    I would try to argue there is no right to enter the vehicle to seize the dashcam in a run of the mill RTC (careless driving).

    If an indictable offence has been committed, the police can enter premises to arrest (s17 PACE). Premises includes a vehicle (s23 PACE).

    If a police officer is lawfully on premises, they can seize any evidence relating to an offence (s19 PACE).

    It is always legal to search premises with the owner's consent - a specific statutory power is not needed, so if you let a copper into your vehicle they are lawfully there and can seize evidence.

    There are some aspects of the Road Traffic Act which might help them as well.

    s6(1) Road Traffic Act 1988:

    If any of subsections (2) to (5) applies a constable may require a person to co-operate with any one or more preliminary tests administered to the person by that constable or another constable.

    s6(5) Road Traffic Act 1988:

    (5)
    This subsection applies if—
    (a)
    an accident occurs owing to the presence of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place, and
    (b)
    a constable reasonably believes that the person was driving, attempting to drive or in charge of the vehicle at the time of the accident.

    s6E:

    6E
    Power of entry
    (1)
    A constable may enter any place (using reasonable force if necessary) for the purpose of—
    (a)
    imposing a requirement by virtue of section 6(5) following an accident in a case where the constable reasonably suspects that the accident involved injury of any person, or
    (b)
    arresting a person under section 6D following an accident in a case where the constable reasonably suspects that the accident involved injury of any person.

    So if you've been involved in an accident involving injury to a person, a police officer can enter your vehicle to administer a preliminary breath test (combination of s6(1), (5) and s6E(1)(a)). Once they have lawfully entered, they can seize the dashcam footage.

    Finally, police regularly exceed their powers in this country but the courts are not forced to exclude evidence obtained in breach of powers. They will only exclude it if to include the evidence would have such an adverse effect on the fairness of proceedings that the court ought not to admit it: s78 PACE.

    So even if a police officer took your dashcam without lawful authority the court would not necessarily prevent it being used in evidence!
    Originally posted by matttye
    I didn't know this, so thank you
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 12th Oct 17, 10:25 AM
    • 486 Posts
    • 357 Thanks
    Comms69
    OK - but a gun is an illegal item, so presumably there are specific laws in place to allow the police to seize it, just like drugs. But can they seize something which is not illegal to own, especially if they can't prove that you even own it ? So they come up to your car, "Excuse me Sir, do you have a dash-cam ?" . "No, officer". "Prove to me that you don't". "You prove to me that I do". "May I search your car ?". "No, not without good reason".

    Dunno, I'm no expert - but it's certainly an interesting talking point
    Originally posted by Ebe Scrooge


    Guns are not illegal in the UK..... Yes they can seize plenty of things owned legally. 99% of evidence in criminal cases will be things owned legally (like phones, clothes, tools, etc)
    • mattyprice4004
    • By mattyprice4004 12th Oct 17, 10:33 AM
    • 3,492 Posts
    • 2,894 Thanks
    mattyprice4004
    Use a micro SD card, then you can swallow it if needed...
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 12th Oct 17, 11:08 AM
    • 398 Posts
    • 188 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    Following a 'simple' accident it's unlikely there would be any inclination or need to get hold of the footage so it wouldn't be an issue however it's not difficult to form suspicion of an offence even if later on there would be insufficient evidence to charge it.

    Please don't take my musings as implying there would be a cover all power at any accident to search vehicles and seize evidence, all depends on the circumstances. Proportionate, necessary etc etc........
    Originally posted by wgl2014
    Aka bending the rules.
    • wgl2014
    • By wgl2014 12th Oct 17, 12:21 PM
    • 314 Posts
    • 171 Thanks
    wgl2014
    Ways and means act? Surely not.
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 12th Oct 17, 2:07 PM
    • 4,188 Posts
    • 5,328 Thanks
    jack_pott
    OK - but a gun is an illegal item, so presumably there are specific laws in place to allow the police to seize it, just like drugs. But can they seize something which is not illegal to own, especially if they can't prove that you even own it ? So they come up to your car, "Excuse me Sir, do you have a dash-cam ?" . "No, officer". "Prove to me that you don't". "You prove to me that I do". "May I search your car ?". "No, not without good reason".

    Dunno, I'm no expert - but it's certainly an interesting talking point
    Originally posted by Ebe Scrooge
    I think if it was a hammer they'd still seize it, and obtain whatever warrants are necessary. I reckon it's all about the seriousness of the crime vs resources available. Where's Brat when you need him, he'll know.
    I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 12th Oct 17, 3:20 PM
    • 486 Posts
    • 357 Thanks
    Comms69
    I think if it was a hammer they'd still seize it, and obtain whatever warrants are necessary. I reckon it's all about the seriousness of the crime vs resources available. Where's Brat when you need him, he'll know.
    Originally posted by jack_pott


    Police only need a warrant in very limited circumstances.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 12th Oct 17, 6:06 PM
    • 398 Posts
    • 188 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    I think if it was a hammer they'd still seize it, and obtain whatever warrants are necessary. I reckon it's all about the seriousness of the crime vs resources available. Where's Brat when you need him, he'll know.
    Originally posted by jack_pott
    Probably spending his pension lump sum by now.
    • forgotmyname
    • By forgotmyname 14th Oct 17, 12:24 PM
    • 25,870 Posts
    • 10,297 Thanks
    forgotmyname
    Yes - set it copying onto one of these, and it will not take any more than a minute of your actual time.
    https://www.7dayshop.com/64gb-flash-drive/intenso-speed-line-usb-3-0-flash-drive-memory-stick-64gb
    Originally posted by AdrianC

    Sadly my P166MMX Windows 95 PC predates USB by about 3 months.
    Just need to add on the costs of a new PC to extract the data
    Punctuation, Spelling and Grammar will be used sparingly. Due to rising costs of inflation.

    My contribution to MSE. Other contributions will only be used if they cost me nothing.

    Due to me being a tight git.
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