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  • FIRST POST
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 11th Oct 17, 12:19 PM
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    Stoke
    Are drivers 'at-fault' obligated to provide their dash cam?
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 17, 12:19 PM
    Are drivers 'at-fault' obligated to provide their dash cam? 11th Oct 17 at 12:19 PM
    I witnessed an accident this morning and had to stop. The driver of the car 'at-fault' (in my opinion) had a dash cam in his car. I mentioned to one of the non-fault vehicles drivers that he should try to obtain the footage, as it will obviously clear up who's at fault. Obviously the police were called, as well as an ambulance.

    However, the driver of the vehicle 'at-fault' has supposedly told the police that no dash cam was in the car and the police failed to obtain it.

    Got me thinking? Do you have to incriminate yourself if you haven't declared the dash cam to your insurance? It is evidence, but we have the right the silence, do we have the right to withhold something that would incriminate us?
Page 2
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 11th Oct 17, 8:16 PM
    • 414 Posts
    • 211 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    You've said it yourself, S19 (a vehicle is classed as premises for this act). S23 also applies to what can be seized and includes items that may be evidence of a crime.

    That then leaves the officer the need to be lawfully in the vehicle. This could be with the owners consent or if a suitable offence is suspected by arresting them and using S18 for the vehicle.
    Originally posted by wgl2014
    And what indictable offence would you suspect?
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 11th Oct 17, 8:22 PM
    • 11,417 Posts
    • 8,587 Thanks
    unholyangel
    OK - but a gun is an illegal item, so presumably there are specific laws in place to allow the police to seize it, just like drugs. But can they seize something which is not illegal to own, especially if they can't prove that you even own it ? So they come up to your car, "Excuse me Sir, do you have a dash-cam ?" . "No, officer". "Prove to me that you don't". "You prove to me that I do". "May I search your car ?". "No, not without good reason".

    Dunno, I'm no expert - but it's certainly an interesting talking point
    Originally posted by Ebe Scrooge
    Most guns are not illegal to own, they just require a licence/permit.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Oct 17, 8:31 PM
    • 15,292 Posts
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    AdrianC
    OK - but a gun is an illegal item, so presumably there are specific laws in place to allow the police to seize it
    Originally posted by Ebe Scrooge
    A gun is not necessarily illegal.

    And what if the murder weapon was a kitchen knife or a hammer? Or a pillow or a plastic bag?

    The seizure is not because the weapon or other item of evidence is somehow inherently illegal, but because it's suspected of being used in the commission of a serious crime. What crime has been committed here? Perhaps careless driving. Are the police charging anybody? If not, then the police's involvement is limited to ensuring traffic gets moving again as quickly as possible - they have zero involvement in the insurance claim.
    • matttye
    • By matttye 11th Oct 17, 9:03 PM
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    matttye
    I'm an accredited police station representative.

    I would try to argue there is no right to enter the vehicle to seize the dashcam in a run of the mill RTC (careless driving).

    If an indictable offence has been committed, the police can enter premises to arrest (s17 PACE). Premises includes a vehicle (s23 PACE).

    If a police officer is lawfully on premises, they can seize any evidence relating to an offence (s19 PACE).

    It is always legal to search premises with the owner's consent - a specific statutory power is not needed, so if you let a copper into your vehicle they are lawfully there and can seize evidence.

    There are some aspects of the Road Traffic Act which might help them as well.

    s6(1) Road Traffic Act 1988:

    If any of subsections (2) to (5) applies a constable may require a person to co-operate with any one or more preliminary tests administered to the person by that constable or another constable.

    s6(5) Road Traffic Act 1988:

    (5)
    This subsection applies if—
    (a)
    an accident occurs owing to the presence of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place, and
    (b)
    a constable reasonably believes that the person was driving, attempting to drive or in charge of the vehicle at the time of the accident.

    s6E:

    6E
    Power of entry
    (1)
    A constable may enter any place (using reasonable force if necessary) for the purpose of—
    (a)
    imposing a requirement by virtue of section 6(5) following an accident in a case where the constable reasonably suspects that the accident involved injury of any person, or
    (b)
    arresting a person under section 6D following an accident in a case where the constable reasonably suspects that the accident involved injury of any person.

    So if you've been involved in an accident involving injury to a person, a police officer can enter your vehicle to administer a preliminary breath test (combination of s6(1), (5) and s6E(1)(a)). Once they have lawfully entered, they can seize the dashcam footage.

    Finally, police regularly exceed their powers in this country but the courts are not forced to exclude evidence obtained in breach of powers. They will only exclude it if to include the evidence would have such an adverse effect on the fairness of proceedings that the court ought not to admit it: s78 PACE.

    So even if a police officer took your dashcam without lawful authority the court would not necessarily prevent it being used in evidence!
    What will your verse be?

    R.I.P Robin Williams.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 11th Oct 17, 9:07 PM
    • 414 Posts
    • 211 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    I'm an accredited police station representative.

    I would try to argue there is no right to enter the vehicle to seize the dashcam in a run of the mill RTC (careless driving).

    If an indictable offence has been committed, the police can enter premises to arrest (s17 PACE). Premises includes a vehicle (s23 PACE).

    If a police officer is lawfully on premises, they can seize any evidence relating to an offence (s19 PACE).

    It is always legal to search premises with the owner's consent - a specific statutory power is not needed, so if you let a copper into your vehicle they are lawfully there and can seize evidence.

    There are some aspects of the Road Traffic Act which might help them as well.

    s6(1) Road Traffic Act 1988:

    If any of subsections (2) to (5) applies a constable may require a person to co-operate with any one or more preliminary tests administered to the person by that constable or another constable.

    s6(5) Road Traffic Act 1988:

    (5)
    This subsection applies if—
    (a)
    an accident occurs owing to the presence of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place, and
    (b)
    a constable reasonably believes that the person was driving, attempting to drive or in charge of the vehicle at the time of the accident.

    s6E:

    6E
    Power of entry
    (1)
    A constable may enter any place (using reasonable force if necessary) for the purpose of—
    (a)
    imposing a requirement by virtue of section 6(5) following an accident in a case where the constable reasonably suspects that the accident involved injury of any person, or
    (b)
    arresting a person under section 6D following an accident in a case where the constable reasonably suspects that the accident involved injury of any person.

    So if you've been involved in an accident involving injury to a person, a police officer can enter your vehicle to administer a preliminary breath test
    (combination of s6(1), (5) and s6E(1)(a)). Once they have lawfully entered, they can seize the dashcam footage.

    Finally, police regularly exceed their powers in this country but the courts are not forced to exclude evidence obtained in breach of powers. They will only exclude it if to include the evidence would have such an adverse effect on the fairness of proceedings that the court ought not to admit it: s78 PACE.

    So even if a police officer took your dashcam without lawful authority the court would not necessarily prevent it being used in evidence!
    Originally posted by matttye
    Because every driver is sat in their vehicle waiting for the police to arrive.
    • boliston
    • By boliston 11th Oct 17, 9:12 PM
    • 2,402 Posts
    • 1,981 Thanks
    boliston
    Presumably if police could seize footage then cameras would be designed to encrypt data to prevent third party viewing.
    • matttye
    • By matttye 11th Oct 17, 9:24 PM
    • 4,725 Posts
    • 2,979 Thanks
    matttye
    Just thinking actually. s23 PACE defines premises as "any place" and specifically mentions it included a vehicle.

    A public highway is a "place" which they are lawfully on. So if you didn't hand over your dashcam, they could arguably seize your vehicle and everything in it as it contains evidence...
    What will your verse be?

    R.I.P Robin Williams.
    • GothicStirling
    • By GothicStirling 11th Oct 17, 9:29 PM
    • 953 Posts
    • 703 Thanks
    GothicStirling
    Concealment of information or evidence is a criminal act known as Perverting The Course of Justice.
    • matttye
    • By matttye 11th Oct 17, 9:30 PM
    • 4,725 Posts
    • 2,979 Thanks
    matttye
    Concealment of information or evidence is a criminal act known as Perverting The Course of Justice.
    Originally posted by GothicStirling
    And far more serious than careless driving! PCOJ usually always results in an immediate custodial sentence.
    What will your verse be?

    R.I.P Robin Williams.
    • forgotmyname
    • By forgotmyname 11th Oct 17, 9:32 PM
    • 25,877 Posts
    • 10,302 Thanks
    forgotmyname
    Yes you can have a copy of the footage but you must pay the costs to have it transferred onto DVD's. Its a 64GB card and its full

    £10 ph and my computer is really slow and it doesnt have a DVD drive so i will add one of those to the invoice. Estimated 40 hours to complete it + postage of course.

    Do you still want a copy?
    Punctuation, Spelling and Grammar will be used sparingly. Due to rising costs of inflation.

    My contribution to MSE. Other contributions will only be used if they cost me nothing.

    Due to me being a tight git.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Oct 17, 9:33 PM
    • 15,292 Posts
    • 13,632 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Concealment of information or evidence is a criminal act known as Perverting The Course of Justice.
    Originally posted by GothicStirling
    "Evidence" for what charge?
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Oct 17, 9:35 PM
    • 15,292 Posts
    • 13,632 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Yes you can have a copy of the footage but you must pay the costs to have it transferred onto DVD's. Its a 64GB card and its full

    £10 ph and my computer is really slow and it doesnt have a DVD drive so i will add one of those to the invoice. Estimated 40 hours to complete it + postage of course.

    Do you still want a copy?
    Originally posted by forgotmyname
    Yes - set it copying onto one of these, and it will not take any more than a minute of your actual time.
    https://www.7dayshop.com/64gb-flash-drive/intenso-speed-line-usb-3-0-flash-drive-memory-stick-64gb
    • matttye
    • By matttye 11th Oct 17, 9:37 PM
    • 4,725 Posts
    • 2,979 Thanks
    matttye
    "Evidence" for what charge?
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Careless/dangerous driving/speeding/any other road traffic offence(s) committed.
    What will your verse be?

    R.I.P Robin Williams.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 11th Oct 17, 9:39 PM
    • 15,292 Posts
    • 13,632 Thanks
    AdrianC
    That sounds rather as if there's a fishing expedition going on, with no idea as to whether there's actually been ANY offence committed or not.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 11th Oct 17, 9:45 PM
    • 414 Posts
    • 211 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    Just thinking actually. s23 PACE defines premises as "any place" and specifically mentions it included a vehicle.

    A public highway is a "place" which they are lawfully on. So if you didn't hand over your dashcam, they could arguably seize your vehicle and everything in it as it contains evidence...
    Originally posted by matttye
    Given you're "an accredited police station representative" I'm surprised you've never come across a vehicle seized as evidence post collision.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 11th Oct 17, 9:47 PM
    • 414 Posts
    • 211 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    Careless/dangerous driving/speeding/any other road traffic offence(s) committed.
    Originally posted by matttye
    Is careless and speeding indictable?
    • matttye
    • By matttye 11th Oct 17, 9:52 PM
    • 4,725 Posts
    • 2,979 Thanks
    matttye
    Given you're "an accredited police station representative" I'm surprised you've never come across a vehicle seized as evidence post collision.
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    I have. I was concentrating so much on the question of whether they could enter the vehicle and seize the dashcam that I wasn't really thinking about them just seizing the whole thing.

    Is careless and speeding indictable?
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    No, but it doesn't need to be. Concealing evidence of any crime can amount to perverting the course of justice. If the crime is particularly minor then they may charge an Obstruct PC instead.
    What will your verse be?

    R.I.P Robin Williams.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 11th Oct 17, 9:56 PM
    • 414 Posts
    • 211 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    I have. I was concentrating so much on the question of whether they could enter the vehicle and seize the dashcam that I wasn't really thinking about them just seizing the whole thing.



    No, but it doesn't need to be.
    Concealing evidence of any crime can amount to perverting the course of justice. If the crime is particularly minor then they may charge an Obstruct PC instead.
    Originally posted by matttye
    Code be suggests you're wrong.
    • matttye
    • By matttye 11th Oct 17, 10:02 PM
    • 4,725 Posts
    • 2,979 Thanks
    matttye
    Code be suggests you're wrong.
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    I think we're talking at cross purposes here.

    GothicStirling said "Concealment of information or evidence is a criminal act known as Perverting The Course of Justice."

    AdrianC said ""Evidence" for what charge?"

    I said "Careless/dangerous driving/speeding/any other road traffic offence(s) committed."

    Code B has nothing to do with perverting the course of justice. Disposing evidence of any crime can amount to perverting the course of justice.
    What will your verse be?

    R.I.P Robin Williams.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 11th Oct 17, 10:05 PM
    • 414 Posts
    • 211 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    I think we're talking at cross purposes here.

    GothicStirling said "Concealment of information or evidence is a criminal act known as Perverting The Course of Justice."

    AdrianC said ""Evidence" for what charge?"

    I said "Careless/dangerous driving/speeding/any other road traffic offence(s) committed."

    Code B has nothing to do with perverting the course of justice. Disposing evidence of any crime can amount to perverting the course of justice.
    Originally posted by matttye
    No, but you were talking about the power to enter a vehicle.
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