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  • FIRST POST
    • maz04
    • By maz04 11th Oct 17, 12:59 AM
    • 15Posts
    • 5Thanks
    maz04
    Pcn
    • #1
    • 11th Oct 17, 12:59 AM
    Pcn 11th Oct 17 at 12:59 AM
    hi there iv been reading through the newbies found lots of great stuff
    just have a question before i do a draft
    the incident date was on 15-09-2015 the issue date was 28-9-2015 = 13 days but i obviously did not receive it on that day it turned up on 2-10-2015
    does this mean they did it within 14 days
Page 1
    • maz04
    • By maz04 13th Oct 17, 5:32 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    maz04
    • #2
    • 13th Oct 17, 5:32 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Oct 17, 5:32 PM
    hi all i have received a county court claim from cel last friday iv been reading through the newbies as you advise everyone to do, and found some great cel cases .
    im bit unsure of pofa 2012. does the ntk have to be issued within 14 days (which they state 13 days) or is i should receive within 14 days because i received it after 16 days

    i have also done a defence statement which i would like someone to check over for me please they all look pretty much they same for cel. and seem to have good results .

    i registered with mcol and DID AOS last Saturday
    im probably getting head of myself but i cant seen to find many examples of witness statements and struggling in what to put.

    would appreciate some advice if anyone could please.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Oct 17, 5:34 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,992 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 13th Oct 17, 5:34 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Oct 17, 5:34 PM
    pofa was explained an hour ago in this thread below yours

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5726939
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • maz04
    • By maz04 13th Oct 17, 5:39 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    maz04
    • #4
    • 13th Oct 17, 5:39 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Oct 17, 5:39 PM
    sorry i will take a look
    cheers
    • maz04
    • By maz04 13th Oct 17, 5:47 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    maz04
    • #5
    • 13th Oct 17, 5:47 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Oct 17, 5:47 PM
    got it thanks
    so it has to be delivered within 14 days think im ok then
    how would they know when it was delivered if not "signed for post"
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Oct 17, 5:54 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
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    Redx
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 17, 5:54 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Oct 17, 5:54 PM
    its deemed "delivered" 2 days later by RM according to the rules they use in law
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • waamo
    • By waamo 13th Oct 17, 5:55 PM
    • 2,116 Posts
    • 2,533 Thanks
    waamo
    • #7
    • 13th Oct 17, 5:55 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Oct 17, 5:55 PM
    The law assumes 2 working days for postage and assumes, absent of any other evidence, that post arrives. If they have proof of posting then you would need to demonstrate it hadn't arrived.
    This space for hire.
    • maz04
    • By maz04 13th Oct 17, 6:01 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    maz04
    • #8
    • 13th Oct 17, 6:01 PM
    • #8
    • 13th Oct 17, 6:01 PM
    just thinking should i send my defence statement after they have sent me details of poc as it says "particulars to follow within 14 days"

    signed by "civil enforcement limited" (claimants legal representative )
    • maz04
    • By maz04 13th Oct 17, 6:07 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    maz04
    • #9
    • 13th Oct 17, 6:07 PM
    • #9
    • 13th Oct 17, 6:07 PM
    its deemed "delivered" 2 days later by RM according to the rules they use in law
    Originally posted by Redx
    sorry im a bit thick so if its delivered on the 16 day --means no keeper liability
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Oct 17, 6:09 PM
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    Redx
    you would certainly argue that - yes

    this 14 day particulars issue seems to be something new and was answered by johnnersh in another court claim thread lower down (this morning in fact)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • maz04
    • By maz04 13th Oct 17, 6:17 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    maz04
    you would certainly argue that - yes

    this 14 day particulars issue seems to be something new and was answered by johnnersh in another court claim thread lower down (this morning in fact)
    Originally posted by Redx
    cheers i'll take a look
    you dont happen to have a link to it do you
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Oct 17, 6:32 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,992 Thanks
    Redx
    I would if I looked but that is your job lol
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • maz04
    • By maz04 13th Oct 17, 9:35 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    maz04
    defence
    do you think this would help see them of

    In the County Court Business Centre
    Claim Number: ............................

    Between:

    Civil Enforcement Limited v ............................

    Defence Statement

    I am .........................., the defendant in this matter and was the registered keeper of vehicle ............................

    I deny I am liable for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:

    1. The Claim Form issued on the ** October 2017 by Civil Enforcement Limited was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by “Civil Enforcement Limited”. The claim does not have a valid signature and is not a statement of truth. It states that it has been issued by “Civil Enforcement Limited” as the Claimant’s Legal Representative. Practice Direction 22 requires that a statement of case on behalf of a company must be signed by a person holding a senior position and state the position. If the party is legally represented, the legal representative may sign the statement of truth but in his own name and not that of his firm or employer.

    2. This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol. And as an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.

    a) There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction.!

    b) This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.

    c) The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.

    d) The Claim form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action nor sufficient detail. The Defendant has no idea what the claim is about - why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information. The Claim form Particulars did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs.

    e) The Defence therefore asks the Court to strike out the claim as having no reasonable prospect of success as currently drafted.

    f) Alternatively, the Defendant asks that the Claimant is required to file Particulars which comply with Practice Directions and include at least the following information;

    i. Whether the matter is being brought for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge, and an explanation as to the exact nature of the charge

    ii. A copy of any contract it is alleged was in place (e.g. copies of signage)

    iii. How any contract was concluded (if by performance, then copies of signage maps in place at the time)

    iv. Whether keeper liability is being claimed, and if so copies of any Notice to Driver / Notice to Keeper

    v. Whether the Claimant is acting as Agent or Principal, together with a list of documents they will rely on in this matter

    vi. If charges over and above the initial charge are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    vii. If Interest charges are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    h) Once these Particulars have been filed, the Defendant asks for reasonable time to file another defence.

    3. The Claimant failed to meet the Notice to Keeper obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold me liable under the strict ‘keeper liability’ provisions.!
    There can be no 'presumption' by the claimant that the keeper was the driver. Henry Greenslade, lead adjudicator of POPLA in 2015 and an eminent barrister and parking law expert stated that “However keeper information is obtained; there is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort.”
    Schedule 4 also states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not, and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when neither the signs, nor the NTK, nor the permit information mentioned a possible £3**.** for outstanding debt and damages.

    4. The Claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that £50 'legal representative’s (or even admin) costs' were incurred

    5. This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. None of this applies in this material case.

    6. In the absence of any proof of adequate signage that contractually bound the Defendant then there can have been no contract and the Claimant has no case.

    a) The Claimant is put to strict proof that at the time of the alleged event they had both advertisement consent and the permission from the site owner to display the signs.

    b) In the absence of strict proof I submit that the Claimant was committing an offence by displaying their signs and therefore no contract could have been entered into between the driver and the Claimant.

    c) Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

    i. Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.

    ii. . It is believed the signage was not lit and any terms were not transparent or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 in requiring a huge inflated sum as 'compensation' from by an authorised party using the premises as intended.

    iii No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.

    iv. The signs are believed to have no mention of any debt collection additional charge, which cannot form part of any alleged contract.

    e) BPA CoP breaches - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

    i. the signs were not compliant in terms of the font size, lighting or positioning.

    ii. the sum pursued exceeds £100.

    iii. there is / was no compliant landowner contract.

    7. No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:

    It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.

    8. The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.

    9. The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.

    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:

    a) failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on ** October 2017

    b) Sent a template, well-known to be generic cut and paste 'Particulars' of claim relying on irrelevant case law (Beavis) which ignores the fact that this Claimant cannot hold registered keepers liable in law, due to their own choice of non-POFA documentation.

    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.

    I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
    Signed
    Date
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Oct 17, 9:38 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,992 Thanks
    Redx
    leave it up for comments but WAIT until you get the separate POC within 14 days , then tweak the above accordingly

    we are all learning about this new process as it only came in 13 days ago
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • innocent.lady
    • By innocent.lady 13th Oct 17, 9:43 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    innocent.lady
    Particulars to Follow
    just thinking should i send my defence statement after they have sent me details of poc as it says "particulars to follow within 14 days"

    signed by "civil enforcement limited" (claimants legal representative )
    Originally posted by maz04
    ...

    I have received a court summons despite thinking the matter had been resolved and them having accepted my explanation of why I over-stayed in the car park.
    That was in 2015 and it's taken over 2 years for them to instigate proceedings, no diversion offered.
    I no longer have any of my paperwork as it was so long ago.

    I live in Newcastle upon Tyne, the car park is in Newcastle - proceedings have been issued in Nottingham County Court.
    I am a disabled person and would be unable to attend without a carer, even then I cannot commute there/back in a day.

    No particulars have been provided in the claim, it simply states the same as the previous post - details to follow.
    I note a claim for legal expenses which is ridiculous, they don't need legal advice given the volume of these cases that are issued daily.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Oct 17, 9:46 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
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    Redx
    it will be an MCOL, not a summons , this is not a criminal offence , its a civil matter

    the Parking company had 6 years to issue a court claim, its been that way since 1973

    if I may advise you ?

    please use the RED new thread button , top left of this forum , and start a NEW THREAD, copy and paste your post above into the new thread and submit

    once done , delete you post above by using edit / advanced edit - delete post
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • maz04
    • By maz04 13th Oct 17, 9:57 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    maz04
    leave it up for comments but WAIT until you get the separate POC within 14 days , then tweak the above accordingly

    we are all learning about this new process as it only came in 13 days ago
    Originally posted by Redx
    are these changes making it harder to win
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Oct 17, 10:04 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,992 Thanks
    Redx
    they are supposed to make the process a lot harder for these PPC people because they have a lot more details and protocols to follow , which is why they have to initiate the details within 14 days so that you have a clearer picture of what the claim is about , and why , and possibly what evidence they have like paperwork and photos etc

    if you ask us again in 3 months time , when hundreds of otehrs have been through this process , we will be able to advise people better

    for now, people like you are the guinea pigs in this new process

    I would assume that if the companies fail the process , the initial judge may strike the claims out due to protocols not being followed

    so we believe that it will be much harder for the claimant , should have little or no effect on a defendant
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • maz04
    • By maz04 13th Oct 17, 10:21 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    maz04
    dont know what do now
    dont want to be a guinea pig
    might just pay it so i can get some sleep
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Oct 17, 10:25 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,992 Thanks
    Redx
    even if it goes to court and you lose, its likely that you can get the judge to strip the bill of all their spurious extra charges

    a typical loss is £175 or less, how much are they asking for ? I bet its more

    and you might win , or they might discontinue , or the judge may strike it out on procedural grounds etc

    and they failed POFA2012 too
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
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