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    • boonkoh
    • By boonkoh 10th Oct 17, 5:26 PM
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    boonkoh
    Receiving Section 21. Can I serve a notice back?
    • #1
    • 10th Oct 17, 5:26 PM
    Receiving Section 21. Can I serve a notice back? 10th Oct 17 at 5:26 PM
    My story is a bit complicated so bear with me!

    My one-year AST ends on the 21st October. Today is the 10th Oct. On the 22nd October, it automatically becomes a periodic tenancy.

    The landlord has informed me today he's going to serve a section 21 notice (so probably seeking possession around the 12th Dec).

    Am I right in thinking that, if I wanted to, I could serve my own notice to the landlord on the 22nd October (start of the period tenancy) to leave on the 21st November?
Page 1
    • cjmillsnun
    • By cjmillsnun 10th Oct 17, 5:27 PM
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    cjmillsnun
    • #2
    • 10th Oct 17, 5:27 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Oct 17, 5:27 PM
    You could indeed. However I don’t think the can issue with an S21 until you go periodic as there are less than two months remaining on your fixed term.
    Last edited by cjmillsnun; 10-10-2017 at 5:38 PM.
    • ProDave
    • By ProDave 10th Oct 17, 5:51 PM
    • 319 Posts
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    ProDave
    • #3
    • 10th Oct 17, 5:51 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Oct 17, 5:51 PM
    I though the LL could issue 2 months notice, 2 months before the 12 months is up, so it can end on exactly 12 months from when it started. Or give 2 months notice any date thereafter.

    If he can't then it was never a 12 month contract but a 14 month contract.

    Of course if you want to leave sooner, then you can give notice to do so.
    • boonkoh
    • By boonkoh 10th Oct 17, 6:20 PM
    • 54 Posts
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    boonkoh
    • #4
    • 10th Oct 17, 6:20 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Oct 17, 6:20 PM
    It is a 12 months AST, ending on 21st Oct. So hence why it will automatically become a periodic tenancy on the 22nd Oct.

    The landlord is serving his 2 months notice to get the property back via section 21, which at this point will mean he will get back the property mid Dec.

    I was wondering whether it is possible for me to serve my own notice to quit after he serves his. In case I find something else sooner and want to move out earlier by the 21st Nov.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 10th Oct 17, 6:23 PM
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    G_M
    • #5
    • 10th Oct 17, 6:23 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Oct 17, 6:23 PM
    However I don’t think the can issue with an S21 until you go periodic as there are less than two months remaining on your fixed term.
    Originally posted by cjmillsnun
    He can issue a S21 at any time provided it expires at least 2 calender months later.

    As fo serving your own notice, yes you can. But beware. If you start a periodic tenancy on 22 Oct, and serve notice on, say 23rd, then your notice would expire on 21st december, as that is 1 full tenanccyy period later. 21st Nov is less than a full tenancy period. Serving notice to end a tenancy before it has started would be a legal nonsense.

    You can, of course, simply leave on 21st October when th 12 month contract ends - no notice needed.

    But you canNOT serve notice to end the periodic tenancy until it starts on 22nd Oct.
    Last edited by G_M; 10-10-2017 at 6:26 PM.
    • rtho782
    • By rtho782 10th Oct 17, 6:30 PM
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    rtho782
    • #6
    • 10th Oct 17, 6:30 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Oct 17, 6:30 PM
    You don't have to give any notice to leave at the end of the 12 month contract - 21st Oct.

    You could just hand the keys back on this date. The landlord will probably be annoyed as he will have a void.
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    • boonkoh
    • By boonkoh 10th Oct 17, 7:00 PM
    • 54 Posts
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    boonkoh
    • #7
    • 10th Oct 17, 7:00 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Oct 17, 7:00 PM
    You don't have to give any notice to leave at the end of the 12 month contract - 21st Oct.

    You could just hand the keys back on this date. The landlord will probably be annoyed as he will have a void.
    Originally posted by rtho782
    That's true and a very good point. Few people know this right. I don't have to give notice if I leave 22oct at the end of the AST, but unfortunately won't be able to sort out my new housing so soon.
    • cjdavies
    • By cjdavies 10th Oct 17, 11:35 PM
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    • #8
    • 10th Oct 17, 11:35 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 17, 11:35 PM
    That's true and a very good point. Few people know this right. I don't have to give notice if I leave 22oct at the end of the AST, but unfortunately won't be able to sort out my new housing so soon.
    Originally posted by boonkoh
    No 21st October, one day over and you have to give notice.
    • boonkoh
    • By boonkoh 10th Oct 17, 11:48 PM
    • 54 Posts
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    boonkoh
    • #9
    • 10th Oct 17, 11:48 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Oct 17, 11:48 PM
    No 21st October, one day over and you have to give notice.
    Originally posted by cjdavies
    Sorry, you're right! Getting mixed up with the dates!

    So just to confirm, if I want to leave on the 21st Nov (end of the first month of the periodic contract) I have to give notice on the 22nd Oct? Can I give earlier? Or does that not work as the periodic contract hasn't automatically started yet and I'm still in the AST?
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 11th Oct 17, 1:46 AM
    • 5,035 Posts
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    00ec25
    Can I give earlier? Or does that not work as the periodic contract hasn't automatically started yet and I'm still in the AST?
    Originally posted by boonkoh
    read #5, you have been given the answer already
    • boonkoh
    • By boonkoh 11th Oct 17, 10:34 AM
    • 54 Posts
    • 68 Thanks
    boonkoh
    read #5, you have been given the answer already
    Originally posted by 00ec25
    Sorry, my bad. I missed that!
    • G_M
    • By G_M 11th Oct 17, 10:42 AM
    • 41,460 Posts
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    G_M
    read #5, you have been given the answer already
    Originally posted by 00ec25
    Hmmm...

    In post 5 above I deliberatey used 23rd Oct for my example, as that is clear-cut.

    I have never managed to get a definitive legal answer to the position where notice is served on the 1st day of a new periodic tenancy.

    * notice cannot be served on 21st as the periodic tenancy has not started.
    * if served on 23rd, then expiry would be 21st Dec (as 21st nov i less than a full tenancy period.)
    * if served on 22nd, my personal belief is that the tenancy could end on 21st Nov since Crate -v- Miller [1947] established that notice can end on the last or 1st day of Tenancy Period ( meaning notice period runs from 22 Oct to 22 Nov - a full period).

    However that ignores the fact that the tenancy must end with a period ie 21 Nov.

    I have never found a legal precedent for this scenario (surprising - it must happen) and assume that landlords simply accept the notice without question, so it's never gone before a court.
    Last edited by G_M; 11-10-2017 at 10:44 AM.
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