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  • FIRST POST
    • NothingExpert
    • By NothingExpert 10th Oct 17, 11:37 AM
    • 36Posts
    • 11Thanks
    NothingExpert
    Can i still appeal or shall i pay?
    • #1
    • 10th Oct 17, 11:37 AM
    Can i still appeal or shall i pay? 10th Oct 17 at 11:37 AM
    Guys

    I got a ticket at a train station (29th August) and didn't do anything waiting for the penalty letter. I got the penalty notice to keeper through on 6th October, but reading on these forum, i should have appealed within 26 days!

    Can i still appeal?
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 10th Oct 17, 11:50 AM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,992 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 10th Oct 17, 11:50 AM
    • #2
    • 10th Oct 17, 11:50 AM
    yes , appeal as KEEPER (NOT AS OWNER OR DRIVER)

    YOU HAVE 28 DAYS TO APPEAL THE POSTAL NOTICE , so WELL DONE for ignoring any windscreen ticket

    as bylaws apply , the TOC have 6 months to take the owner to magistrates court (unlikely)

    so string it out as long as possible

    the NEWBIES sticky thread will help you
    Last edited by Redx; 17-11-2017 at 3:02 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • NothingExpert
    • By NothingExpert 1st Nov 17, 1:47 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    NothingExpert
    • #3
    • 1st Nov 17, 1:47 PM
    • #3
    • 1st Nov 17, 1:47 PM
    Hey guys, I submitted my appeal using the template (newbie thread, blue text) and got the following response - any thoughts on how i should respond?


    Thank you for you recent online submission.

    We refer your letter of <<date>>, which we are treating as a formal section 10 Notice (“the Notice”) under the Data Protection Act (“the Act”). Please accept this letter as our formal acknowledgement and response to the Notice. You have provided no justification for the Notice. The processing of your data is warranted. In any event, section 10(1) of the Act does not apply in circumstances where Schedule 2, paragraphs 1 to 4 of the Act are met, accordingly we are permitted to continue to process your data at this stage. If this is not clear, we suggest you seek legal advice.

    Please also note that the template letter you have used does not relate to this matter as the outstanding matter on our system is a Penalty Notice issued under Railway Byelaw 14, not a Parking Charge Notice.

    Photographic evidence available to view on www.ipaymypcn.net demonstrates that there is clear signage on site, these signs state that all vehicles must be parked within the confines of a marked bay or designated parking area. Your vehicle was in breach of these terms.

    The balance of £124.00 remains payable on our systems for this account, please refer to the back of our letters for the payment options available to you. If this matter remains unpaid, it will be left to progress accordingly and further fees may be incurred.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 1st Nov 17, 2:44 PM
    • 1,136 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    • #4
    • 1st Nov 17, 2:44 PM
    • #4
    • 1st Nov 17, 2:44 PM
    Amusingly thta is their template response....

    The entire point for a Railway Penalty notice is to get to 6 months byelaw time out

    So you repsond, towards the end of their dates given, and corespond again - asking them precisely what byelaw they contend was breached

    Then when they respond, again ask them another question - this time, what authority have they been granted to create and enforce penalty charge notices, given this power was not enacted to anyone by the Secretary of State?

    And so on

    They can do NOTHING her e- whil they can threaten Magistrates court, they get nothing if you lsoe - it goes to the Crown. Theyre essentially only capable of offering a "contract" to not pursue toa place they lose money at

    They could threaten to clamp, but again cannot do so for an unproven debt

    There is no current system of penalty charge notices that are in force at railways. They just dont actually exist, legislatively speaking. Its all a con

    Your ONE duty is to get you over the 6 months deadline. After that they can go whistle.
    • NothingExpert
    • By NothingExpert 12th Nov 17, 11:09 AM
    • 36 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    NothingExpert
    • #5
    • 12th Nov 17, 11:09 AM
    • #5
    • 12th Nov 17, 11:09 AM
    Thanks for the response. I am happy to draw it out, but a couple of question on your suggested approach

    1. They already states its Byelaw 14 - not sure why I should ask them again about which byelaw?

    2. Also in my original letter (blue letter from the newbie thread) i asked them for a POPLA code. Am i still entitled to POPLA considering its a railway byelaw notice and should i insist on having one from them?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Nov 17, 11:37 AM
    • 15,874 Posts
    • 24,612 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #6
    • 12th Nov 17, 11:37 AM
    • #6
    • 12th Nov 17, 11:37 AM
    1. It can add another week to the target of 6 months. You can play letter tennis to eat away at the deadline for prosecution.

    2. In theory ‘yes’. You haven’t told us which PPC this is, bit if it’s Indigo then there’s been some shady dealing with the BPA to omit byelaw cases from the POPLA appeals procedure. It’s not clear what the DVLA stance is on this, but if the PPC chasing you is Indigo, you have the right to query the withholding of your POPLA entitlement with the DVLA. David Dunford is the manager to raise this query with.

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 12th Nov 17, 12:12 PM
    • 7,411 Posts
    • 6,458 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #7
    • 12th Nov 17, 12:12 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Nov 17, 12:12 PM
    As the Count states, you have them by the short and curlies, there is nothing they can do to make you pay.

    Why ask them which bye-law? Because it uses up time and parking outside a bay is not a byelaw offence, so you ask them which byelaw they refer to. You keep the ball in the air for six months and then it is game over.
    Last edited by The Deep; 12-11-2017 at 12:22 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • NothingExpert
    • By NothingExpert 12th Nov 17, 2:12 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    NothingExpert
    • #8
    • 12th Nov 17, 2:12 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Nov 17, 2:12 PM
    Thanks guys, will keep you posted!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Nov 17, 2:17 PM
    • 51,672 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 12th Nov 17, 2:17 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Nov 17, 2:17 PM
    You will not get POPLA.

    Do as nosferatu1001 posted, and I would also ask what they mean by ''progress accordingly'' (to where) ''and further fees may be incurred'' (how much, on what excuse, and payable to whom?):

    So you respond, towards the end of their dates given, and correspond again - asking them precisely what byelaw they contend was breached

    Then when they respond, again ask them another question - this time, what authority have they been granted to create and enforce penalty charge notices, given this power was not enacted to anyone by the Secretary of State?

    And so on

    They can do NOTHING here - while they can threaten Magistrates court, they get nothing if you lose - it goes to the Crown. They're essentially only capable of offering a "contract" to not pursue to a place they lose money at

    They could threaten to clamp, but again cannot do so for an unproven debt

    There is no current system of penalty charge notices that are in force at railways. They just dont actually exist, legislatively speaking. Its all a con

    Your ONE duty is to get you over the 6 months deadline. After that they can go whistle.

    They already states its Byelaw 14 - not sure why I should ask them again about which byelaw?
    Ask them to explain where byelaw 14 specifically creates a penalty about bay markings, and ask for a full copy of the byelaws.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 12-11-2017 at 2:19 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • NothingExpert
    • By NothingExpert 17th Nov 17, 2:51 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    NothingExpert
    Going with this - let me know if any issues

    Thank you for your response which was rather unclear and vague to the point where I need a number of clarifications before we progress any further.

    You state that if "the matter remains unpaid that this will progress accordingly". Can you provide clear and specific description on what the full process is alongside with timelines and who and which authorities are involved. Please note that there is no reference to this process in the "Penalty Notice" that I received as the Keeper.

    In your more recent email correspondence you threaten that "further fees will be incurred". Once again, can you provide clear and specific description as to what the further fees to be incurred are. Specifically how much are these fees, for what grounds you are charging me for them and to whom are they payable?

    Furthermore you claim that the Penalty Notice is issued under Railway Byelaw 14. Can you please explain to me where specifically Byelaw 14 allows for a penalty with regards to bay markings? I'd be grateful if you can provide me with a full copy of the relevant byelaw.

    I look forward to hearing from you
    They didn't give me any indication as to when they want a response to the email, so i assume 21 days. As i received the email on 1 Nov, i will send my email response to them over the weekend.
    Last edited by NothingExpert; 17-11-2017 at 4:47 PM. Reason: modified the line at the bottom to make it more clear following Redx comment
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th Nov 17, 3:03 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,992 Thanks
    Redx
    you have a standard 28 days to appeal a postal notice, as I said in a previous reply

    so string it out as long as possible, by appealing around day 25 , or in your case the 26th november
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • NothingExpert
    • By NothingExpert 17th Nov 17, 4:36 PM
    • 36 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    NothingExpert
    Thanks RedX, but what i meant was that i got the email response on the 1st. Timeline is

    Incident: 29/08
    PNO sent: 3/10
    PNO received: 6/10
    Appeal sent online: 30/10
    Email response: 1/11

    So i'm assuming i have 21 days after the email to respond (to the email)
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 17th Nov 17, 6:43 PM
    • 15,874 Posts
    • 24,612 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    So i'm assuming i have 21 days after the email to respond (to the email)
    You’ve already submitted your initial appeal, which has been rejected. I’m not sure where you’ve got 21 days from. You can respond to their rejection whenever you want - it’s not part of the formal process, but you need to keep engaging with them to drag out the 6 months.

    Obviously the longer you leave it the nearer it gets, but you don’t want to leave it too long. But there’s no given wisdom on ‘how long is long enough’. I would have thought that 21 days could be ok.

    If you’re going to play letter tennis with them I wouldn’t load too many questions in one go. Save some for future letters. Also don’t make the questions too difficult for them, keep them engaged - and eat up the time.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • NothingExpert
    • By NothingExpert 21st Nov 17, 12:28 AM
    • 36 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    NothingExpert
    OK Guys so I sent the following email

    Dear Sir

    Thank you for your response. I am seeking advice as suggested and formulating a full response with detailed points, however in your response to my notice, there were a few points that were unclear and vague and i would seek a number of clarifications before we progress any further.

    You state that this matter will "progress accordingly". Can you provide clear and specific description on what the full process is alongside with timelines and who and which authorities are involved. Please note that there is no reference to this process in the "Penalty Notice" that I received as the Keeper or in any other correspondence from yourselves.

    In your more recent email correspondence you threaten that "further fees will be incurred". Once again, can you provide clear and specific description as to what the further fees to be incurred are. Specifically how much are these fees, for what grounds you are charging me for them and to whom are they payable?

    I look forward to hearing from you
    and got the following response today

    Good afternoon,

    Thank you for your email.

    Please note, as this account has progressed to the debt recovery stage the options currently available are to either pay the outstanding balance in full or allow this account to progress accordingly.

    Our client feels there is sufficient evidence to pursue this PN and have maintained their instruction to recover the outstanding balance. If the account remains unresolved it will progress to the legal stage and be passed to the solicitors.

    The further fees that will be added will be the solicitors fees.
    Clearly these guys wan to pursue aggressively and are ignoring my questions.

    What options - continue email tennis?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Nov 17, 12:30 AM
    • 51,672 Posts
    • 65,330 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes, ask whether this is an allegation of contractual breach? And ask for evidence.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 21st Nov 17, 10:27 AM
    • 1,136 Posts
    • 1,165 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Yes, ask if they are pursuing this under byelaws, contractual breahc, trespass or some other basis?

    State that this is in accordance with the overriding objectives of the CPR and that refusal to answer such questions will be used to demonstrate unreasonable conduct pursuant to CPR27.14(2)(g)
    • NothingExpert
    • By NothingExpert 22nd Nov 17, 9:50 AM
    • 36 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    NothingExpert
    I haven't asked any of the questions you have suggest above yet (plan was to stagger the questions) and will go back and do that. On a side note, why am i not entitled to POPLA, having done loads and loads of reading i thought i was?
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