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    • JKSTF1969
    • By JKSTF1969 9th Oct 17, 3:32 PM
    • 2Posts
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    JKSTF1969
    Inheritance Fraud
    • #1
    • 9th Oct 17, 3:32 PM
    Inheritance Fraud 9th Oct 17 at 3:32 PM
    Hi, would like some advice on the following:
    (if this is not in the right place could it be moved to a new thread, as I don't seem to have the option to open a new thread ?)
    My brother in law passed away two years ago and left his three sons £15000 each and his wife was left £15.000 plus £9,000 cash which was left to make sure she used it for upkeep of the house.
    The oldest son got his money straight away as he was over 21, the middle son`s money was put into a trust fund with stipulations that he could not have it until he turned 21 and has been employed for over 12 months, and the youngest son who is 7, his money was also put into a trust until he reached 21, so my wife and my brother in laws wife opened the bank accounts for the two sons and made sure that it needed two signatures to withdraw any money from these accounts.
    But for some reason after a year the bank changed the account and put the accounts on via internet banking which both had access to but didn’t realise that either one of them could take the money at any time.
    Any way the brother in laws wife phoned us and asked could she borrow £4000 from the youngest sons account which she was told NO as we had to keep to what the will stated.
    She has spent the £15,000 and the £9,000 left to her but had spent it all within two years, after she was told no, my wife phoned the bank to get a block on the account which would take 48 hours, but before the bank could block the accounts she had taken all the money out of both accounts, she then put £15,000 into one sons account and said he can have it, but as per his father`s will he is not allowed to have it until he reaches 21 and has been in paid employment for 12 months.
    She has taken the other sons money another £15,000 and moved it into her own account and spent some of it.
    We have been in touch with the bank to find out how she could have taken this money when it should have been two signatures to get the money, still waiting for the bank to reply.
    We have also informed the solicitor who did the will but again waiting for the reply.
    What I would like to know should we inform the police that she has stolen this money as what she has done has gone against my brother in laws will. just heard back the police are not interested as its a civil matter.
    please advise what we should do, if we bring a civil case against her, which will cost a couple of thousands pounds, what punishment is she likely to get ?, we don't want the judge to give her a slap on the wrist when we have just spent £2000 + on this.
Page 1
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 9th Oct 17, 4:27 PM
    • 23,096 Posts
    • 13,385 Thanks
    xylophone
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 17, 4:27 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 17, 4:27 PM
    Your brother in law's will left each of his three sons £15,000.

    What was the exact wording of the will?

    https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/trusts-settlements-and-estates-manual/tsem1563

    http://trustsdiscussionforum.co.uk/t/bare-trusts-beyond-18/2008/2

    The sums were "indefeasibly vested" in bare trust?

    If so, the 21 year old was certainly entitled to the money straight away and if the second son was at least 18, he too was entitled to call for access and control .

    The funds for the youngest son should have been held in bare trust and he could call for access and control at age 18.

    This aspect aside, if the two accounts were trust accounts and there was a clear account condition that two signatures were required to take money from the accounts, then they should not have been subject to internet access.

    Your wife should be making a formal complaint in writing to the to the bank.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 9th Oct 17, 4:43 PM
    • 89,852 Posts
    • 55,452 Thanks
    dunstonh
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 17, 4:43 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 17, 4:43 PM
    It would be better if a new thread was started for JKSTF1969's issues as the OP is still active on this thread and it would not be fair to take it off subject.
    • alanq
    • By alanq 9th Oct 17, 5:33 PM
    • 3,778 Posts
    • 2,427 Thanks
    alanq
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 17, 5:33 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 17, 5:33 PM
    It would be better if a new thread was started for JKSTF1969's issues as the OP is still active on this thread and it would not be fair to take it off subject.
    Originally posted by dunstonh
    I agree and have split into a new thread.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Budgeting and Bank Accounts, Savings & Investments, Food Shopping and Over 50s MoneySaving boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com. Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 9th Oct 17, 5:44 PM
    • 5,568 Posts
    • 5,411 Thanks
    eskbanker
    • #5
    • 9th Oct 17, 5:44 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Oct 17, 5:44 PM
    please advise what we should do, if we bring a civil case against her, which will cost a couple of thousands pounds, what punishment is she likely to get ?, we don't want the judge to give her a slap on the wrist when we have just spent £2000 + on this.
    Originally posted by JKSTF1969
    Surely the key thing here (initially at least) is to protect the children's inheritance rather than seeking punishment for the mother?

    If the bank has unilaterally removed a control mechanism and in doing so enabled withdrawal of the funds contrary to the agreed terms of the account then there should be an obligation on the bank to get the two trust accounts restored to how they were, whether that's out of their own pockets or recovered from the mother (i.e. it should be the bank's problem).
    • MysteryMan00
    • By MysteryMan00 9th Oct 17, 8:14 PM
    • 129 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    MysteryMan00
    • #6
    • 9th Oct 17, 8:14 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Oct 17, 8:14 PM
    The trustees (who have legal duties) need to request the return of the money.

    I'd make it very clear that if it isn't returned, it is theft. Plain and simple.
    If the trustees don't get it back, they could be liable - so they shouldn't listen to any excuses.

    The bank/the mechanism of how they got the money is a bit secondary.
    In the first place, anyone other than the beneficiary probably has absolutely no legal right to the money or any loan whatsoever - so they need to return it.

    I've seen a number of cases where parents have appropriated money belonging to their children or trustees (supposedly acting for their elderly parent) have taken money. It boils my blood as it isn't "on" and goes against so many different things.
    • Aretnap
    • By Aretnap 9th Oct 17, 10:49 PM
    • 2,766 Posts
    • 2,198 Thanks
    Aretnap
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 17, 10:49 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 17, 10:49 PM
    if we bring a civil case against her, which will cost a couple of thousands pounds, what punishment is she likely to get ?, we don't want the judge to give her a slap on the wrist when we have just spent £2000 + on this.
    Originally posted by JKSTF1969
    None. Punishment is the domain of the criminal law. The purpose of a civil case.is to get back money which is owed to you, not to impose punishment on a wrongdoer. So the judge might order be to repay the money, but if you're hoping that he'll send her to prison you'll be disappointed.
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 10th Oct 17, 1:21 AM
    • 5,568 Posts
    • 5,411 Thanks
    eskbanker
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 17, 1:21 AM
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 17, 1:21 AM
    The trustees (who have legal duties) need to request the return of the money.

    I'd make it very clear that if it isn't returned, it is theft. Plain and simple.
    If the trustees don't get it back, they could be liable - so they shouldn't listen to any excuses.
    Originally posted by MysteryMan00
    I believe that, based on her being one of the co-signatories on the trust accounts, it's one of the trustees who stands accused of appropriating the money, so the notion of the trustees acting together here to sort this out seems remote, given that the sons' mother will already be well aware that she's broken the rules or maybe even the law (although she'll presumably be rationalising her actions).

    If she's already shifted the money from the trust accounts, I'd have thought it would be something of a long shot to believe that simply telling her to put it back would have any effect, hence my recommendation to pursue the matter via the bank (at least initially) rather than the courts, if there appears to be a case that they were negligent....
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