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    • Ianb2017
    • By Ianb2017 9th Oct 17, 2:50 PM
    • 5Posts
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    Ianb2017
    Installing Fibre methods
    • #1
    • 9th Oct 17, 2:50 PM
    Installing Fibre methods 9th Oct 17 at 2:50 PM
    Hi there guys,

    I'm working on a renovation project on a small hotel. We have a plan for the wifi set up around the building, the thing we aren't too sure about is the provider and a good starting point.

    The concern is that as the project nears it's finale (which is a good few months yet) we don't want all floors down and polished then have someone with "interweb man" on his coat to take to the floors with circular saw....

    Not being particularly tech savvy when it comes to this topic I've consulted my memory and come up with BT and Virgin as fibre providers... I'm sure there are others...maybe.. I had a quick web chat with a virgin staff member and was told I'd have to sign up to virgin right now in order to proceed with the fibre installation (of course I wasn't expecting something for nothing, but I at least figured I'd could pay them a token fee to run a cable in or something), when I was told that no, definitely had to sign up, I explained my nice new floor analogy coupled with a circular saw wielding engineer and was told that was something that was unavoidable...unless of course I signed up now...

    So I turn to you guys....any ideas

    Oh and of course, as mentioned there is still a fair few months left, so I have no desire to sign up to a business broadband set up with all the bells and whistles whilst trudging around in my work/painting gear..
Page 1
    • JJ Egan
    • By JJ Egan 9th Oct 17, 3:22 PM
    • 9,941 Posts
    • 4,094 Thanks
    JJ Egan
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 17, 3:22 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 17, 3:22 PM
    Who supply's current phone line BT probably .
    BT master socket of some description at point of entry .
    If its WiFi not sure what would need to be cut or dug up .
    • onomatopoeia99
    • By onomatopoeia99 9th Oct 17, 6:28 PM
    • 3,605 Posts
    • 7,948 Thanks
    onomatopoeia99
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 17, 6:28 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 17, 6:28 PM
    Firstly, unless you are in one of the very few areas where FTTP is enabled, or you pay for a leased line, you won't be getting fibre to your hotel, you will either be getting a twisted pair phone line as on the BT network (which opens the possibility of many ISPs) or coax on Virgin Media (which only allows Virgin Media as the ISP). Either will need to enter your property somewhere, where there will be a master socket or coax lead terminated with an F-connector (for virgin) where the modem / router will plug in. That will have one or more RJ45 ethernet sockets and probably wifi as well. You may already have a line coming in somewhere and be able to find it, that would give you an idea at least.

    From there it ceases to be the ISP's problem, how you get the connection to your devices and the rest of the premises is your responsibility (though a disappointing number of punters bizarrely think that their local network is a matter for the ISP's support department to help them with). If it's much bigger than a family home, a single wifi router is unlikely to cover the whole building well. You can use ethernet cable (cat5e, cat6) to distribute it from a central switch and patch panel somewhere, then have wireless access points connected at each outlet.

    If you are not "tech savvy", you should talk to a local IT company about your infrastructure and get it sorted out now so the circular saw can be avoided when you have finished renovating. Yes, it will cost you to pay someone that knows what they are doing, but if this is going to be an incentive to your future customers it would be better to get it right at the start rather than waiting for complaints.


    We have Virgin Media business as our ISP at my workplace. I do not recommend them.
    INTP, nerd, libertarian and scifi geek.
    Home is where my books are.
    • AndyPK
    • By AndyPK 9th Oct 17, 6:51 PM
    • 2,473 Posts
    • 658 Thanks
    AndyPK
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 17, 6:51 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 17, 6:51 PM
    Do virgin supply the area? If roads need to be dug up then it usually takes them at least 2 months. So I would go through the order process and see if they can actually supply you. Should make it easier to decide.

    I don't think you would see a virgin engineer with circular saw. They don't like to be there long!

    It sounds like you need a network engineer, if you want many wifi access points throughout the place.

    and maybe run some cat5 network cable in to the extream ends/corners of the building so that wifi points could be installed. But i'm guessing.

    Loads of companies sell fibre now.
    But its either through virgins cable, or openreach cable(BT)


    Old buildings with thick walls can be a real problem however small you think the building is
    • Ianb2017
    • By Ianb2017 10th Oct 17, 12:21 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Ianb2017
    • #5
    • 10th Oct 17, 12:21 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Oct 17, 12:21 PM
    Thanks so far.

    Basically, the infrastructure within the walls is semi sorted, we've run cat5 all over the place which we will use to connect up to numerous access points, which will spread signal throughout the building. The main issue at this stage is getting something to the 'front door'... (or wherever it comes in).. Basically I need a clean install, but I'm not sure if I'd pay BT a lump for them to do it, without actually having to sign up to a plan.. (or initially thinking virgin as another possibility, but I see they're not recommended).
    • littleboo
    • By littleboo 10th Oct 17, 12:26 PM
    • 542 Posts
    • 241 Thanks
    littleboo
    • #6
    • 10th Oct 17, 12:26 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Oct 17, 12:26 PM
    Openreach provide the infrastructure to the property (unless you go with Virgin), you don't deal with them direct, you deal with your chosen ISP who deal with OR. So you will need to order a service from an ISP to get a line installed or activated.
    • Ianb2017
    • By Ianb2017 10th Oct 17, 1:40 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Ianb2017
    • #7
    • 10th Oct 17, 1:40 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Oct 17, 1:40 PM
    Hi there,

    so basically what you're saying is there is no way to pay for a master socket to be installed from the nearest central point on the street, without signing up to a plan?
    • iniltous
    • By iniltous 10th Oct 17, 5:56 PM
    • 1,419 Posts
    • 503 Thanks
    iniltous
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 17, 5:56 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 17, 5:56 PM
    Hi there,

    so basically what you're saying is there is no way to pay for a master socket to be installed from the nearest central point on the street, without signing up to a plan?
    Originally posted by Ianb2017
    Correct, pick a provider (BT, Sky, Talk Talk, or whoever ) , if no line currently exists , that provider will arrange with Openreach to provide a line and a master socket, it would then be up to you to arrange to connect that line to your own 'local network' possibly using the router supplied by the ISP you have chosen .
    You cannot get a line and socket installed in advance then contact a communications provider to bring that 'line' into service later.
    If you were a large scale developer building many property's you could arrange to 'pre install' , using the Openreach Newsites process, but that doesn't apply to single or small scale developments
    Last edited by iniltous; 10-10-2017 at 6:01 PM.
    • AndyPK
    • By AndyPK 10th Oct 17, 6:25 PM
    • 2,473 Posts
    • 658 Thanks
    AndyPK
    • #9
    • 10th Oct 17, 6:25 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Oct 17, 6:25 PM
    I amazed the building doesn't currently have a phone line?

    What's that all about ?
    • onomatopoeia99
    • By onomatopoeia99 11th Oct 17, 8:50 AM
    • 3,605 Posts
    • 7,948 Thanks
    onomatopoeia99
    Hi there,

    so basically what you're saying is there is no way to pay for a master socket to be installed from the nearest central point on the street, without signing up to a plan?
    Originally posted by Ianb2017
    Seems so.

    There's also nothing to stop you signing up with a provider with a short minimum term and cancellling after one month. I believe there are still one or two that offer that.
    INTP, nerd, libertarian and scifi geek.
    Home is where my books are.
    • Ianb2017
    • By Ianb2017 11th Oct 17, 5:58 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Ianb2017
    Hi all,

    Ok seems we have an answer that it's not really possible to do what I ask... quite a shame considering I would be happy to fork out an amount to BT (or openreach) to just run in a new line).. Unsure if there is an existing line as there is only one phone socket to be found and that has no life to it by any means... I did speak to BT the other day who said an engineer could do a clean install for £120 (ish) I think it was, however I didn't push as to whether that amounted to signing up to a contract first off. Perhaps it does...
    • societys child
    • By societys child 11th Oct 17, 7:22 PM
    • 4,891 Posts
    • 5,332 Thanks
    societys child
    Unsure if there is an existing line as there is only one phone socket to be found and that has no life to it
    It may simply have been disconnected at the nearest cabinet.

    • iniltous
    • By iniltous 11th Oct 17, 9:25 PM
    • 1,419 Posts
    • 503 Thanks
    iniltous
    It's not really clear why you want to get a non active line installed which you can later get brought into service, seems a really strange way of installing a master phone socket to me , but obviously it's your decision.
    As already stated, the nearest thing to what you apparently want, is to pick a phone only provider that has no minimum 12/18 month term ( so in effect you can quit with 1 month notice )...these company's do exist but tend to be smaller niche providers, chose carefully though, and raise a phone line order with them.
    Typically, you get charged for the install ( could be anything from £60-£130) and 1 months rental (£20 ish) , as soon as the line is and working, give the company notice of your intention to 'cease', so for about £150 you get what you want, a newly installed but 'dead' master socket ( well a socket that was 'live' for about a month ) that can be reactivated by another Telco/ISP as and when you want.
    Last edited by iniltous; 11-10-2017 at 9:29 PM.
    • Ianb2017
    • By Ianb2017 12th Oct 17, 1:23 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Ianb2017
    The reasons for this are as stated, it is a hotel and as such will require quite a set up to keep behind the scenes and customers working well. If one was to sign up to something now, there would be at least 6 months of outgoing bills whilst work is continuing to be carried out - does that make sense....

    Secondly, I already mentioned "the new floor" analogy, does it make sense to not even pursue a line of enquiry about an installation to avoid a teeth sucking engineer saying "sorry mate" as he knocks a hole in something...

    I wouldn't have thought it would require a further lengthy explanation, but I guess I was wrong..
    • iniltous
    • By iniltous 12th Oct 17, 6:15 PM
    • 1,419 Posts
    • 503 Thanks
    iniltous
    I suspect ( unless you are ordering 'business grade' structured cabling) then you may be expecting more from a standard line install than you actually get.
    If the property is served by overhead means ( so the is a telegraph pole outside with 'drop wires' to neighbouring property's,) then all you would get is a cable drop wire from the pole to the property, the cable ingress via a hole in the wall and a surface mounted socket fitted on the inside wall pretty much where the cable enters.
    I cannot really see the advantage of this socket fitted now , but left 'dormant' for a few months , or fitted in exactly the same place shortly before you want the service to start.
    The Openreach person fitting the socket will not be touching your own equipment, connecting that would be upto you, or you would have to employ someone to do it, but it wouldn't be done by the Openreach engineer ( if you use a company that use OR 'lines' ) they certainly wouldn't be cutting into floors are walls to hide cables etc
    If the property is served by underground cabling, then you would already know where the cable enters the property and a socket would already exist.
    Last edited by iniltous; 12-10-2017 at 6:21 PM.
    • Robisere
    • By Robisere 12th Oct 17, 6:37 PM
    • 1,891 Posts
    • 2,667 Thanks
    Robisere
    I don't know your location, but in my village lives the boss of a commercial TV/CCTV/internet/network business. His company supplies hotels, social housing, schools and various other places with exactly the kind of services that you describe. I suggest you Google for something like that in your locality, or ask at your local Council, who almost certainly use something similar. You could have all the infrastructure in place, paid for and inert before you needed it active.
    There may be more than one way to skin a cat.
    But the result is always inedible.

    • Sparx
    • By Sparx 12th Oct 17, 9:20 PM
    • 767 Posts
    • 416 Thanks
    Sparx
    OP do you know which providers are in the area? Do BT provide FTTC and/or Virgin Media cable the area? I mean if BT can't provide fibre but Virgin are in the area, bit of a no brainer to go with VM and get 350Mb internet being shared on a wifi network across a hotel. You don't want to be sharing a BT 8Mb ADSL line... However if a small hotel and can get BT FTTC (up to 78Mb) then it would be acceptable.

    If it's a hotel, could you share the address/postcode? Would help enable us to give more accurate advice. I think you are overthinking the logistics of what's needed.

    If you already have the building cat5'd up, access points ready and have the infrastructure and knowledge to sort this, then you're fine in terms of internet supply.

    If you order VM - the engineer will come, if they haven't already connected up the building you can sort with them the entry point and best place... If the cable already enters the building, they'll just activate the coax already in situ. VM are likely easier to negotiate having an engineer out to reroute cable if it's already there. Openreach can be a nightmare.

    If it's BT/Sky/Plusnet/Talktalk/etc and there is an inactive phone line already there, they'll reactivate that line. You can then sort the logistics of moving the BT master socket, or extending it, or living with where it is. Or paying a new connection fee (£50-120) upon ordering and say you want 'a new line' then you can negotiate with the Openreach engineer the placement of this.
    Last edited by Sparx; 12-10-2017 at 9:41 PM.
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