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  • FIRST POST
    • Hayles31
    • By Hayles31 9th Oct 17, 1:58 PM
    • 32Posts
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    Hayles31
    Small claim against me even though paid fine
    • #1
    • 9th Oct 17, 1:58 PM
    Small claim against me even though paid fine 9th Oct 17 at 1:58 PM
    Hi

    Wondering if someone can help me draft a defence, Iíve filed an AOS.

    I have received a claim firm for a parking charge notice despite paying the fine when I received a ticket on my windscreen - paid through SIP website within a matter of hours although a few months later I received a letter demanding payment and despite emails to SIP and Gladstoneís confirming I have made payment already a claim has been initimated. I had paid for parking but unfortunately had recently bought a new car and therefore using PAY BY PHONE I put in my old registration.

    Any help would be appreciated. Also feel I have grounds for a counterclaim given that they got my details from DVLA without reasonable cause as I had paid the fine straight away.

    Thanks
Page 1
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 9th Oct 17, 3:18 PM
    • 1,756 Posts
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    Loadsofchildren123
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 17, 3:18 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 17, 3:18 PM
    I think you can do this very simply, with a counterclaim. You have to pay a fee on a counterclaim - google EX50 which lists fees, it will depend on the value of your counterclaim. You also need to check they definitely got your details from DVLA - someone will no doubt post a link to the email address you should use to get confirmation that they did, and when.


    I'd just say this or something like it:


    DEFENCE


    1. The Defendant admits that on x date s/he was the registered keeper and driver of vehicle registration number xxx, but denies any debt exists.


    2. On x date the Defendant admits that s/he parked on the land in question and received a parking charge notice from the Claimant. However, on x date the Defendant paid the said charge in full, within the time frame specified by the Claimant. The Defendant will produce evidence of the payment in the form of a bank statement [and cheque stub? email confirmation of payment? did you keep the ticket or anything?]


    3. In spite of receiving payment, the Claimant has continued to write to the Defendant, both itself and via third party debt collectors and now solicitors, seeking payment of the charge, together with additional charges and interest, and threatening proceedings and a CCJ.


    4. Since the Defendant paid the charge in full, within the required time scale, there is no debt owing to the Claimant and this Claim is entirely misconceived and bound to fail.


    5. The Defendant has attempted repeatedly [or on x occasions] to draw these matters to the Claimant's attention, but the Claimant has ignored all his/her correspondence.


    COUNTERCLAIM


    6. In spite of no debt being due to the Claimant because whatever debt was due was paid on x date, it has sought the Defendant's personal data from the DVLA, and it has obtained, retained and processed such data in breach of his/her rights under Sections xxxx of the Data Protection Act, including passing the data to third party debt collectors [this is not my area of expertise so someone will need to tell you the correct sections numbers of the Act]. [if you can find out from DVLA the date they obtained your data, put this in on the third line after DVLA - "on x date"]


    7. The Claimant obtained, retained and processed the Defendant's data with no just cause, because no debt was owed to the Claimant.


    8. The Claimant and its agents have written countless letters to the Defendant [would be better if you can say how many] over the course of x months alleging that the debt is due, demanding increased amounts to settle it, and making threats of court proceedings and CCJs. The Claimant's conduct amounts to a breach of section 1 of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.


    9. The Claimant's actions and those of its agents have caused the Defendant stress, anxiety and upset.


    10. The Defendant seeks the payment of damages in the sum of £750 [or any other amount you feel is appropriate] and an injunction prohibiting the Claimant or its agents from contacting him/her again about this matter.


    11. The Defendant also seeks his/her costs of the counterclaim.


    Then add the statement of truth, signature and date clause.


    Someone who knows more about the DPA than me might play around with my wording in the counterclaim. I'd claim for both DPA and PFHA breaches, the current thinking is that a PFHA claim is stronger than a DPA one, but I think you are equally strong on both because of the facts of your particular case.


    As much as the pre-action protocol/PD apply to Claimants, they apply equally to you as a Defendant making a counterclaim. Technically you should write them a LBC. Not sure how long you have to file your defence, but if you work out the date perhaps send the draft defence and counterclaim to them with a letter saying something like:


    Dear Sirs


    PCN number xxx dated xxx
    Your client: [name]
    LETTER BEFORE CLAIM
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 9th Oct 17, 3:26 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 17, 3:26 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 17, 3:26 PM
    WOOPS pressed post too soon, continuing with my suggested letter:


    Please note that this is a Letter Before Claim and I draw your attention to the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct [comment: before anyone warbles on about the new Protocol, it doesn't apply to you as you are not a business].


    You have instructed solicitors to commence proceedings against me (claim number xxxxx). I enclose the Defence and Counterclaim which I intend to issue against you.


    You will note that my case is that I have already paid any monies due in respect of the PCN in full. I refer to my previous correspondence dated xxxxx (copies enclosed) which makes this clear. I attach a bank statement showing payment (redacted to remove private information). I also enclose [any other documents to prove your case, not sure what you kept?]....


    You have ignored my correspondence, and for some extraordinary reason you have continued to chase me for a payment which is not due to you, and now you have issued proceedings against me. This has involved countless unsolicited letters from yourselves and your agents, all of which has put me to considerable trouble and which has caused me a substantial amount of anxiety and stress.


    You requested my personal data from the DVLA, in spite of having no just cause to do so.


    Your actions amount not only to a breach of my rights under the Data Protection Act, but are also harassment pursuant to section 1 of the Protection From Harassment Act 1997.


    This letter is to put you on notice that I will pursue a counterclaim against you, as set out in the enclosed draft Defence and Counterclaim.


    In invite you to withdraw the claim, unequivocally and unconditionally and to pay me damages in the sum of £[750 or whatever amount you decide on].


    Given that you have issued proceedings against me, I cannot offer you the normal 14 day time limit in which to respond, but request a response within 7 days.


    Yours faithfully etc.


    I'd send this to the Claimant with a copy to the solicitors. If you really just want this to go away, I'd send it with another letter marked "Without Prejudice Save as to Costs" offering a drop hands settlement (ie they withdraw and you agree not to pursue any claim against them). Alternatively you could offer to walk away for, say, £200 (or whatever other amount you want).
    • Hayles31
    • By Hayles31 9th Oct 17, 3:46 PM
    • 32 Posts
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    Hayles31
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 17, 3:46 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 17, 3:46 PM
    Thanks so much, should I also put in my defence that Iíd also paid but put the wrong registration in?

    Also, if a counterclaim I didnít think you had to send a letter of claim before issuing a counterclaim?

    In terms of DVLA, how do I find out if they used this to get my details? Just wondering how else they could too?

    Thanks again your help is much appreciated
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 9th Oct 17, 4:22 PM
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    Half_way
    • #5
    • 9th Oct 17, 4:22 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Oct 17, 4:22 PM
    just a quick heads up:
    you havent been fined, and who's car park was this, as edgy did you get a parking charge notice In the first place?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Hayles31
    • By Hayles31 9th Oct 17, 4:40 PM
    • 32 Posts
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    Hayles31
    • #6
    • 9th Oct 17, 4:40 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Oct 17, 4:40 PM
    Hi

    Thanks. Appreciate itís not a fine but an invoice. It was Spaw Street Arches car park in Manchester. I havenít retained the notice that was left on my car but have a payment overdue letter although this is dated 25 May 2017 and the ticket was placed on my car on 13 March.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 9th Oct 17, 8:08 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 17, 8:08 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 17, 8:08 PM
    Don’t know about dvla but if you read some threads or do a search you’ll find it, the info is posted frequently.

    No point doing a counterclaim on DPA breach unless you know they got your data from them. You said in your first post they had.

    Don’t see the point in mentioning in your defence that you’d paid at the time but entered wrong reg - that isn’t a defence to this claim. Your defence is there is no debt cos (rightly or wrongly) you just paid the charge (you probably thought it was a fine). You might mention it in your WS eventually.

    A counterclaim is the same as a claim. You should still write a LBC but give a very short time for the response.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 9th Oct 17, 8:12 PM
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    KeithP
    • #8
    • 9th Oct 17, 8:12 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Oct 17, 8:12 PM
    In terms of DVLA, how do I find out if they used this to get my details?
    Originally posted by Hayles31
    Ask the DVLA.
    .
    • Hayles31
    • By Hayles31 10th Oct 17, 12:06 AM
    • 32 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Hayles31
    • #9
    • 10th Oct 17, 12:06 AM
    • #9
    • 10th Oct 17, 12:06 AM
    Thanks everyone, made request to DVLA but donít think theyíll respond in time for when my defence is due although have another 21 days yet so will wait a bit longer. In the meantime would it be worth sending gladstones/SIP a part 18 request and ask them if they got my details through DVLA.

    Should I keep the defence limited to just that no debt is owing as paid the charge or should I also put in, as people in other threads have done, about POCs not being CPR compliant, premature issue of proceedings etc?
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 10th Oct 17, 11:53 AM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    Would need to see the PoC and the LBC and your response and any response from them to advise on that
    • Hayles31
    • By Hayles31 11th Oct 17, 10:00 AM
    • 32 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Hayles31
    Hi

    I received a ticket on my car on 13 March 2017 and I paid £35 through SIPs automated system on their website (it was reduced amount if paid within a certain time period think 24 hours but I havent retained the parking ticket) and I have evidence through a bank statement it was paid, the website didnít provide a receipt.

    Next letter from SIP dated 25 May 2017 which is headed payment overdue (no notice to keeper wording) which then states reason for charge as no parking ticket displayed and then goes on to say the notice (notice to keeper) was affixed to the windscreen of the above vehicle at the time of issue and/or a Notice to Keeper was sent (as said before there was a ticket on the windscreen but no notice to keeper has ever been received).

    I then called SIP and they told me to email them as it doesnít seem my payment has been married up with the charge. So I did this and sent evidence of my payment on 30 May which I said:

    I have just spoke to one of your employees and he has asked me to send an email to confirm I made payment for the PCN which I am now getting chased for.

    Payment of £35 was either made on 13th or 14th March and a screenshot of the payment made is at the bottom of this email. It was made through your website. I also had paid for car parking that day through PAYBYPHONE but had just bought a new car so put the wrong registration in, YK09 OBH was the reg I used, so in fact I have actually overpaid for parking that day.

    I am heavily pregnant and this is something which I could do without the stress of and I look forward to receiving confirmation as soon as possible that the issue is resolved.

    Kind regards


    The next letter I got from SIP is dated the 9 June not acknowledging my reply and stating final reminder. I sent a further email on 12 June which I said:

    I am disgusted to receive yet another reminder despite having paid the parking charge notice.

    I was advised by one of your customer services team to use this email address to send evidence of payment made which I have done so (see email below). And I rely on that representation made that I could use this email address as a form of communication. Not only have I paid the parking charge but I also paid the parking but put the incorrect registration in which I have previously explained. You have therefore been overpaid for such parking.

    If I receive further requests for payment and/or court proceedings then I will proceed with either a claim or counter claim against yourselves for harassment. You have also obtained my details from the DVLA without reasonable cause given payment has been made and I will seek to inform the ICO of your misconduct and seek damages in relation to this to.

    The next letter was then received from Gladstones dated 1 September 2017. It said it had been instructed to commence legal action... for failing to settle the debt which relates to parking charges (confirms date, PCN number and location and 160 owing) for which you are liable. Full details of the charges have been provided to to with the PCNS and/pie notice to driver/keeper that have been served upon you. The Claimant will rely on these documents. It then gives the standard 14 date notice etc.

    I then called Gladstones on 18 september and they said they donít take calls and to email and provided an email address which I emailed the following:
    Unfortunately I do not have my reference number to hand but my name, address and car reg are as follows:



    Please see below emails sent to SIP explaining that I have already paid not only the parking fine but also the actual parking but I had mistakenly put the wrong car reg having recently changed cars so in fact SIP owe me a refund. I therefore look forward to receiving a cheque in the sum of £35.00 to avoid further action against your client to recover such sum as well as damages for obtaining my information from the DVLA without reasonable cause.

    I look forward to hearing from you with the next 21 days to avoid me taking further action.

    Next I received the claim form which was issued on 22 September. POCs said

    The driver of the vehicle registration xxx incurred the parking charge on 13 March 2017 for breaching the terms of parking on the land at Spaw Street Salford. The Defendant was driving the vehicle and/or was the keeper of the vehicle, and then confirms what the claimant claims.

    I called Gladstones again on receipt of this and they told me to use their website to upload an enquiry which I did on 27 September again confirming paid and I then followed this up by email to an email address I found for Gladstones on the law society website which I said

    have identified your email address through the Law Society and note that you have signed the statement of truth on the recent Claim Form sent to me.

    I am extremely annoyed and upset that Court proceedings have been initiated against me when on a number of occasions I have set out why I do not owe any parking charges (see below). Please can you review this case immediately and confirm that the claim is being withdrawn. This along with previous communication will be presented to the Court should the claim continue against me in these and any subsequent proceeding I may make should the claim not be discontinued immediately.

    I have had no response to date

    Do I need to put anything more in my defence? Thanks in anticipation of any help
    Last edited by Hayles31; 11-10-2017 at 10:20 AM. Reason: Personal info
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 11th Oct 17, 10:14 AM
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    beamerguy
    Hayles31 >>> URGENT URGENT

    Please take out all personal info from the above for your security

    This forum does not need your personal info.

    With proof of payment that you have, shows complete
    incompetence by SIP and Gladstones

    Gladstones could never win this and will deserve
    the wrath of a judge and yet another whooping in court

    Prepare a statement of your costs for the judge to award you
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Hayles31
    • By Hayles31 11th Oct 17, 10:16 AM
    • 32 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Hayles31
    Thanks, Iím trying to remove the personal info but donít know how, clicked on edit post but wonít do anything!
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 11th Oct 17, 10:19 AM
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    beamerguy
    Thanks, Iím trying to remove the personal info but donít know how, clicked on edit post but wonít do anything!
    Originally posted by Hayles31
    When you click on edit you will see "advance edit", try that
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Hayles31
    • By Hayles31 11th Oct 17, 10:26 AM
    • 32 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Hayles31
    Thank you, thought I had removed personal info before posting but clearly I hadnt!
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 11th Oct 17, 10:33 AM
    • 6,476 Posts
    • 8,306 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Thank you, thought I had removed personal info before posting but clearly I hadnt!
    Originally posted by Hayles31
    Good its ok now.

    Many years ago, my granfather was summoned to court
    for not paying rates (as it was then)

    He always paid and kept receipts.
    He showed the court the payment receipt and the court
    gave a massive dressing down to the council.

    In your case, you are dealing with the incompetent Gladstones
    and the courts already know how incompetent they are

    Enjoy this, get your costs schedule ready.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 11th Oct 17, 10:54 AM
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    The Deep
    In your case, you are dealing with the incompetent Gladstones and the courts already know how incompetent they are

    But do the SRA? Even if they do, it would do no harm to remind them.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 11th Oct 17, 11:06 AM
    • 6,476 Posts
    • 8,306 Thanks
    beamerguy
    In your case, you are dealing with the incompetent Gladstones and the courts already know how incompetent they are

    But do the SRA? Even if they do, it would do no harm to remind them.
    Originally posted by The Deep
    Of course the SRA know but as they have already proven,
    they are not interested in the general public
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 11th Oct 17, 11:28 AM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    Thanks everyone, made request to DVLA but donít think theyíll respond in time for when my defence is due although have another 21 days yet so will wait a bit longer.I think looking at your timeline they got your details from DVLA. Put in that counterclaim and just assume they did. You can always withdraw the counterclaim if evidence is produced that they didn't - you've raised the complaint with them in one of your earlier letters (which you could argue was akin to a LBC) and they didn't deny it. In the meantime would it be worth sending gladstones/SIP a part 18 request and ask them if they got my details through DVLA. Don't bother. You'll get the info from DVLA in the end.

    Should I keep the defence limited to just that no debt is owing as paid the charge or should I also put in, as people in other threads have done, about POCs not being CPR compliant, premature issue of proceedings etc? You could but in most cases these matters are completely ignored by the court. I think you're better off keeping it short and sweet. You should however argue these matters when you come to ask for R27.14(2)(g) costs - if you search my posts from yesterday I posted a costs argument with all the case law about the court's power to order costs against a party who ignores the pre-action obligations
    Originally posted by Hayles31

    I see you also complained to them about harassment.


    Add to the counterclaim:


    The Claimant's actions in writing repeatedly to the Defendant claiming a debt was owed, when they had been repeatedly informed by her that it had been paid, amount to harassment pursuant to Section 1 of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997. The Claimant's actions caused the Defendant to feel anxious, stressed and harassed. The Defendant specifically told the Claimant that this was the case, but it/its agents continued to write to her.


    The Defendant seeks damages in respect of the Claimant's breach of section 1 of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 11th Oct 17, 11:41 AM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    You will recall I advised yesterday that a LBC needs to be written in respect of the counterclaim - you can write a very short letter referring to your previous correspondence because whilst that wasn't labelled LBC, effectively it was because you put them on notice that you would counterclaim, what for, and specified what their breaches of the two Acts were. So I'd just write one anyway but make it brief and refer to your previous letter.


    Dear Sirs,


    I refer to my letter of x date, in which I put you on notice of my intention to make a claim or counterclaim against your client. For convenience, I enclose a copy. Whilst that letter was not formally marked "Letter Before Claim" it clearly put your client on notice of an intended claim/counterclaim. The only information omitted from the letter was reference to the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (although the contents of the Practice Direction will of course be well known to you).


    You failed to respond to the letter, which is not only professionally discourteous but is also a breach of your client's obligations in paragraphs 6(b) and (c) of the Practice Direction. Instead, your client issued proceedings. A complete disregard of the Practice Direction, and one which the court has the power to punish (the sanctions are set out in its paragraphs 13-16).


    For the avoidance of doubt, I re-confirm my intention to make a counterclaim against your client for damages for breaching my rights under the Data Protection Act and the Protection from Harassment Act.


    I also put you on notice of my intention to seek indemnity costs from your client pursuant to Rule 27.14(2)(g). This is a claim which has no basis at law, there being no debt owed to your client. Your client has failed to comply with its pre-action obligations - specifically it has not addressed my case that I paid the parking charge in full on [x date]. Both of these matters mean that your client is behaving, and has behaved, unreasonably.


    I invite your client to withdraw the claim within the next 7 days (ie by x date). If it does not do so then I will make and pursue my counterclaim without further notice.


    Yours faithfully
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