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    • Wizard of Id
    • By Wizard of Id 9th Oct 17, 11:23 AM
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    Wizard of Id
    Getting my dog neutered
    • #1
    • 9th Oct 17, 11:23 AM
    Getting my dog neutered 9th Oct 17 at 11:23 AM
    My dog (collie cross kelpie) is now 14 months old and although he has been trying it on with the ladies (and anything else) for about 6 months, it is becoming more regular and persistant to the point of aggression on either the other dogs part (both sexes) or from him if he doesn't get his own way. Mostly because of this I have decided that it is time for the 'snip' even though I was initially advised by a breeder and seperately by a dog trainer to leave him until he was at least 18 months old.

    I am also hoping that he will calm down a bit and not try to be dominant all the time, the way he does at the moment, I'm also hoping that he won't pull as much on the lead, bark at lorries and cyclists and possibly even learn some recall so that I might be able to let him off the lead when out at the park.

    I know all dogs and their owners are different but has anyone got any pointers as to what to expect after getting a 14 month old male collie neutered?
    Every man is innocent until proven broke.
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Page 1
    • WaywardDriver
    • By WaywardDriver 9th Oct 17, 11:32 AM
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    WaywardDriver
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 17, 11:32 AM
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 17, 11:32 AM
    Our terrier cross neutered at 10 months - doesn't seem to have diminished his amorous intentions at all.
    • Wizard of Id
    • By Wizard of Id 9th Oct 17, 11:35 AM
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    Wizard of Id
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 17, 11:35 AM
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 17, 11:35 AM
    Apparently it takes a while for the testostorone to stop flowing round the dog's system.
    Every man is innocent until proven broke.
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    • GBNI
    • By GBNI 9th Oct 17, 1:04 PM
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    GBNI
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 17, 1:04 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 17, 1:04 PM
    [QUOTE=Wizard of Id;73236796]

    I am also hoping that he will calm down a bit and not try to be dominant all the time, the way he does at the moment, I'm also hoping that he won't pull as much on the lead, bark at lorries and cyclists and possibly even learn some recall so that I might be able to let him off the lead when out at the park.

    QUOTE]


    Neutering is not going to help with these issues, you need to train the dog. You have got a dog made up of two breeds which require a lot of mental stimulation. Their minds need to be kept busy.
    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 9th Oct 17, 2:11 PM
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    sheramber
    • #5
    • 9th Oct 17, 2:11 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Oct 17, 2:11 PM
    Neutering only reduces testosterone so only behaviours affected by it are affected.

    Many neutered dogs 'still try it on' as you put it. It is learned behaviour.

    Nor will it not stop the other behaviours. These need to be dealt with by training.

    You need to find a trainer who uses positive reward methods.

    He sounds a frustrated dog who needs directed into preferable behaviours and some mental stimulation to use his collie /kelpie brain.
    Both these breeds are high energy.

    Find a local trainer or training club and once your dog has some control he would probably love to something like agility, which will give him physical and mental exercise.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 9th Oct 17, 6:57 PM
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    teddysmum
    • #6
    • 9th Oct 17, 6:57 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Oct 17, 6:57 PM
    My Joly's father was castrated at about 5 years old,but carried on his usual behaviour when one of the girls was interesting. On these occasions he was kept in his owner's bedroom overnight, while the girls were in the heated kennels, but he persisted in trying to dig his way through the bedroom door.


    When my two boys were done (because I discovered a tumour in Joly,so had both dogs done so not to upset the balance.)


    It made no difference at all to temperament (Teddy stayed stroppy),though both stopped leg cocking unless another dog had recently marked (or there was something in the way).


    I've heard it said that if either sex is neutered while very young the coat doesn't develop properly, but my two were about 6 years old and both coats affected. Teddy lost a lot of coat with some bare batches below his throat, but Joly's went very thick,growing so long that it dragged on the floor, though it is shorter and thinner now, but he is 14.
    • Soot2006
    • By Soot2006 9th Oct 17, 7:12 PM
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    Soot2006
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 17, 7:12 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 17, 7:12 PM
    In terms of what to expect from the op - hopefully not very much, it's straightforward. Follow the pre-op guidance given by the vet.

    Behaviourally, who knows. The behaviours you describe require training, and it might be worth having a chat with the breeder or independent trainer to decide if neutering in the midst of a behavioural crisis is a good idea, or whether it might be better to train the issues first and then neuter while all is calm.
    • GwylimT
    • By GwylimT 10th Oct 17, 7:01 AM
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    GwylimT
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 17, 7:01 AM
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 17, 7:01 AM
    To be honest the barking, pulling etc should have stopped a long time ago, but dogs are never too old to be trained.

    Neutering doesn't change behaviour, if he is accustomed to being given free access to a female and getting a bit stroppy, this will continue unless his behaviour is corrected.

    It sounds like he is bored and used to getting his own way.

    Getting a trainer in for a short while often helps as you can see their methods working before you employ them yourself, it makes it easier when you have days where you feel pooch isn't listening.
    • owlet
    • By owlet 10th Oct 17, 7:05 AM
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    owlet
    • #9
    • 10th Oct 17, 7:05 AM
    • #9
    • 10th Oct 17, 7:05 AM
    I agree with what others have said regarding both training and mental stimulation & just wanted to add that if you are on Facebook, there is a great group called Canine Enrichment. There are a lot of ideas on there to stimuate your dog mentally - that you could start using now. Using his brain to work things out should help to calm him because he is working and you can start straight away whilst you are looking into neutering and training.
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    • Wizard of Id
    • By Wizard of Id 10th Oct 17, 11:39 AM
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    Wizard of Id
    Sounds like what you are all saying is that getting him neutered will be a waste of time and it should be me that gets done instead.

    I have been trying to train him since I got him in February and had limited success
    I got a trainer in to point me in the right direction but even using the techniques that he showed me there are still the issues mentioned.

    If I could just get the recall working I would then be more confident in letting him off the lead to do stuff in open spaces but he has a very short attention span and will get distracted by almost anything, favourite treats don't work nor do toys or silly voices as said by the trainer.

    I think I must just be too easy going and he has got the dominant position, he does walk by my side when I keep a very short lead but as soon as he gets room to move, he mostly pulls out front to the point of strangling himself, I was advised that he would learn not to do this himself (because he is an intelligent breed) but he is still at it.

    People I have spoken to locally have said that castration should calm him down and make him easier to handle and train but from what I read on here it would seem that I would just be wasting £150.
    Every man is innocent until proven broke.
    Cryin won't help you, prayin won't do you no good.

    Walk 2000 3000 miles in 2017 - 2631.8
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    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 10th Oct 17, 12:02 PM
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    sheramber
    there are reasons for neutering but changing behaviour is not one of them.

    Training is an ongoing thing and since he has been practicing these behaviours for over a year so it will take time to re educate him.

    It will also take a lot of patience as he will improve and then sometimes get worse again. You need to be very consistent with him. the power of random success is well known.
    Think of one arm bandits. People keep trying because sometimes they win.

    It is the same with dogs. They are selfish creatures who do what rewards them.- but we still love them!

    So you must be consistent with him.

    You need to become more interesting and rewarding than anything else.

    Start in the garden and the house where there are no distractions. If he doesn't respond to you there he isn't going to respond to you in the big, exciting world.

    You are in the teenage stage which lasts until he is at last 2 years old. 18 months is common time for people to rehome dogs because they can't cope with them.

    I f you can tell us where you are someone may be bale to recommend a trainer to help you.

    Or look here http://www.apdt.co.uk/dog-owners/local-dog-trainers
    • bugslet
    • By bugslet 10th Oct 17, 12:02 PM
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    bugslet
    I think it is mostly mental stimulation and he is still a young dog.

    I've had around ten boy dogs in my life and never had one done, and that includes a border collie.

    I think with the training, it's a case of being consistent. He's clever enough toknow what you want him to do, he just can't see the point. Lola is about 90% of the way there - she's pretty good altogether walking on her own, a bit worse with the others by her side and it's been a case of stopping, waiting for her to get bored and issuing the command back till she's by my side. She still walks ahead, but as long as the lead is loose, I'm fine with that. But it has been a looooong and boring year at times
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 10th Oct 17, 12:47 PM
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    Red-Squirrel
    You should still get him neutered and also carry on working on the training, the main reason for neutering is so that you aren't responsible for unwanted puppies!
    • Timpu
    • By Timpu 10th Oct 17, 1:00 PM
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    Timpu
    I could have written this. Thoughts in blue...errr, don't know what's happened to the formatting but you get the idea.


    I have been trying to train him since I got him in February and had limited success
    I got a trainer in to point me in the right direction but even using the techniques that he showed me there are still the issues mentioned.

    We ended up trying different training classes and ultimately settled on someone who used to train guide dogs and holds all classes outdoors, changing location each session. Point is, if you can try another trainer and see if they suit you and your dog any better. I'm not saying the trainer you worked with is good or bad but a different approach may help. We also referred to Victoria Stillwell's website, as well as raid the local library.


    If I could just get the recall working I would then be more confident in letting him off the lead to do stuff in open spaces but he has a very short attention span and will get distracted by almost anything, favourite treats don't work nor do toys or silly voices as said by the trainer.

    Ours went through this phase, nothing was more interesting than another dog/person/bin etc. all we could do was grit our teeth and persist. The advice to start small i.e. in the garden before expanding, certainly worked for us.

    ...he does walk by my side when I keep a very short lead but as soon as he gets room to move, he mostly pulls out front to the point of strangling himself, I was advised that he would learn not to do this himself (because he is an intelligent breed) but he is still at it.
    Originally posted by Wizard of Id
    That strangling sound is awful, used to go right through me. A trainer might be able to advise you on a nose lead. I say this with caution. The trainer who's classes we now attend tried such a thing on our hound but quickly concluded it was not suitable for her.

    Good luck.
    • bmthmark
    • By bmthmark 10th Oct 17, 2:21 PM
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    bmthmark
    I have a 1 year old (birthday Friday) cocker spaniel. We had him neutered a few weeks ago.
    The reason why we decided to have him neutered was because he kept getting randomly attacked by different dogs. He would also mark his scent on every tree/post. I also noticed that he would wander off whilst off lead.

    The op went very well, virtually straight away he stopped marking his scent and he has not been attacked by another dog since (it was probably a daily occurrence pre op).

    He is still his crazy self, his personality/behavior has not changed at all (very pleased about). Off lead I have noticed that he still goes off but will always come back, especially if he spots me walking off.

    From what I have read, if I was you I would get him neutered and 100% keep going with the training.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 10th Oct 17, 7:18 PM
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    teddysmum
    I had four male cavaliers at once but could not neuter as one had a bad heart and having the others done (one of whom probably didn't know what a female dog was, after having one on heat visiting our house and he taking no notice ) would upset the balance.


    When the two mentioned died, one of the others had a testicular tumour so was neutered and the one done a few weeks later. One was a compulsive scratcher so I bought an inflatable collar to prevent too much damage, but he actually ignored the wound and loved his mobile pillow .the other cried the first night he was crated to stop running about, but it turned out to be because he was confined and not through pain.


    As spaying stops a female from having pyometra ,castration rules out testicular cancer, which I thought was rare but 25% of my pack had a tumour.


    One person I knew did have a downside of castration, as in one of the James Herriot stories, as male dogs thought her little sheltie was a girl and treated him accordingly, but we have had no such problems.
    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 10th Oct 17, 9:16 PM
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    sheramber
    Many neutered dogs are pestered by entire dogs because the neutered dog does not smell like a male so the entire dog thinks it is a female.

    Some neutered dogs who have experienced this become wary of entire dogs and act agressively towards them as in I'll warn you off before you come near me.

    My neutered dog started lifting his leg and marking at 2 years old.

    My current neutered dog has never stopped marking.

    Neutering has its place but it is not a substitute for training.

    It won't stop a dog pulling on the lead or start him recalling. it wonlt calm down a dog that is not getting enough stimulation.

    Look at what he is being fed. Foods with lots of additives can make a dog hyperactive.
    • Soot2006
    • By Soot2006 11th Oct 17, 8:59 AM
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    Soot2006
    Good point about the food. An easy way to know if your feed is right for your dog is to go by their poo! They shouldn't produce very much; it shouldn't smell particularly (obviously it whiffs! But it shouldn't STINK); shouldn't be soft; should only be as a function of what they eat. E.g. if you feed once a day, expect one poo, if you feed twice, expect two etc!

    Personally, I am not at all anti-neutering. I just wouldn't want you to confound the behavioural issues with hormones. Neutered males have an easier life in many ways, esp if they are prone to roaming or running away. Less likely to get in a serious fight, less likely to track down an in-heat !!!!!, etc ...

    Forget expensive behaviourists, just find a friendly reward-based local trainer (maybe someone who does clicker training) to start a new and improved line of communication with your dog. Many trainers hold classes specifically for naughty adults dogs (trust me, I've been to many!). Your dog at his age still has everything to learn; he's also at a particularly difficult age where a weekly consistent training class will make a HUGE different to the adult dog he will become. Then consider neutering him once you have a handle on those things.

    Most dogs in rescue are abandoned as adolescents, because they are frequently unbearable! But if you put the effort in now, find a reward-based trainer, it will change everything for the better x
    • elsien
    • By elsien 11th Oct 17, 10:35 PM
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    elsien
    Have you thought about something like rally or agility to use up his mental energy and tire him out?
    It's taken me over 3 years to get Gitdog to the point where we now never need the head collar. He was 3ish when he came to me, completely untrained, lacking in impulse control (that's not changed!) and pulled like a steam train. I also still go to weekly training classes - more to keep me motivated, than him.
    I wouldn't expect it to take as long with other dogs, but he's an !!!!, bull terriers aren't noted for their willingness to learn and pulling is one of the harder things to train once fully ingrained.
    Gitdog will only go off lead in an empty enclosed field to let off steam and practice recall - is there anything like that anywhere near you? My local park has one that's secure, but also a local trainer rents a field out for an hour at a time. I use a longer lunge lead the rest of the time - not a flexi lead as they're lethal.
    What's recently made a difference as well though is taking him to agility - a fun class as the serious ones wouldn't have us. If you'd told me I'd be able to let him off the lead in a field with other dogs and keep his attention I'd have rolled round the floor laughing. But he loves it, it knackers him, and it's improved his focus no end. He's still an !!!! (took me 10 minutes to retrieve him last time as he zipped round on an unofficial round staying just out of grabbing distance) but he's now a more controllable !!!!.
    Training, and consistency. There aren't any short cuts.
    Last edited by elsien; 11-10-2017 at 10:38 PM.
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    • Katiehound
    • By Katiehound 11th Oct 17, 10:41 PM
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    Katiehound
    It has pretty much been said already by the people who always answer with great ideas.

    Sounds to me like he needs mental stimulation too-games you can play indoors: hiding a treat under one of 3 flower pots, or hiding toys round the house, playing hide and seek with you- as examples.
    Collies are working dogs and will run many miles in a working day so they are very active.
    I would neuter anyway.
    Find some reward based training. Are you near a Dogs Trust centre? because they have (new) dog school. Also look at their website for ideas. Even teaching your dog to 'shake paws' or High 5 may be considered a trick but it would get him to focus.

    If you have a safe enclosed space to exercise with another doggy pal so that they can let off steam by playing before going for a walk that would also be helpful. Then you can walk a slightly calmer , less excited pooch.

    Yes and food- check for % protein content as it might be too high
    Being polite and pleasant doesn't cost anything!

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