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  • FIRST POST
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 3:04 AM
    • 17Posts
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    Len86
    taken to the cleaners a while back...
    • #1
    • 8th Oct 17, 3:04 AM
    taken to the cleaners a while back... 8th Oct 17 at 3:04 AM
    not sure where to start so here goes nothing. A few years ago I purchased a vehicle online from a trader, it was a used but very low mileage one owner car. The trader offered to have it shipped to me instead of me coming down and viewing the car to which I agreed. It arrived a few weeks later well past midnight in the freezing cold, I took a quick look around and it seemed OK at first glance.

    Once I sorted out the insurance in the morning I got in and immediately realised many things wrong with it. Flat tyre, handbrake was jammed, idled rough, damp in the footwell, etc etc. Once I got it moving, odd sounds where coming from the rear differential area, it pulled heavily to one side, aircon was faulty - nothing was right with it.

    I got on the phone to the trader who assured me it passed an MOT with flying colours and none of this had shown however because he was such a nice fella he agreed to have the car collected and shipped back to him and repaired and returned FREE of charge. This is in writing, so no misunderstanding there (still got copies.)

    A few weeks later I get a phone call telling me the vehicle was checked and nothing was found, and for that reason, I better pay him for the transport to and from and also the cost of inspection somewhere in the region of £1000??? I told him he must be having a laugh and to have it looked at again as I wasn't going to pay him a dime (not to mention, as per agreement, in writing.) He gets back to me two weeks later telling me it has been checked out again and a few faults found (irrelevant to the original faults) and that they where all sorted now BUT (and here is where it gets interesting) I must still cough up the £1000 for the all of this plus storage costs for every day I don't pay up. Knowing now I was dealing with a cowboy I threatened with legal action for which I received a menacing letter from his solicitors which went on for over a month.... backwards and forwards.

    Now, between the time of actual purchase and to this point I think a good three months had pasted, and not long after, family troubles forced me to end up having to leave and go abroad for almost two years. I kept in touch via email with his (even more cowboy) solicitors but this ended up going nowhere.

    Now that I'm back, where do I stand on this exactly? Can I still pursue this in small claims court? It is still within the 5 years.

    The solicitors claim he has sold the vehicle to recover his false costs. If so, is this not fraud? (logbook fraud?)

    Where do I stand?
Page 2
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 8th Oct 17, 12:38 PM
    • 392 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    he lied and took the vehicle back under false pretense, with an agreement in place to repair the car at his expense - he is not innocent in this. simple as. He no longer can claim that he had the right to charge me storage or sell the car on. You are missing the point clearly. And if he has sold the car then he would have applied for a logbook fraudulently.
    Originally posted by Len86
    So you expected the car to be stored for two years then.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 8th Oct 17, 12:42 PM
    • 2,293 Posts
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    Car 54
    in order to sell a car to someone you must have a log book
    Originally posted by Len86
    Not true, though the purchaser would be foolish not to insist in it.
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 12:46 PM
    • 17 Posts
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    Len86
    So you expected the car to be stored for two years then.
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    you are clearly having a laugh and mocking me. i'm not interested in continuing this with you, i came here for some legal advice you are clearing being childish.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 8th Oct 17, 12:48 PM
    • 2,293 Posts
    • 1,470 Thanks
    Car 54
    he lied and took the vehicle back under false pretense, with an agreement in place to repair the car at his expense - he is not innocent in this. simple as. He no longer can claim that he had the right to charge me storage or sell the car on. You are missing the point clearly. And if he has sold the car then he would have applied for a logbook fraudulently.
    Originally posted by Len86
    What happened to the original logbook? Did he complete and give you the green "new keeper" slip? Did you send that off and get a new V5C?

    You will be aware that the V5C is not proof of ownership. Do you have proof of ownership? Any written evidence of the agreement to repair?
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 12:49 PM
    • 17 Posts
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    Len86
    Not true, though the purchaser would be foolish not to insist in it.
    Originally posted by Car 54
    You missed the other part about consent. It is true a log book is only a registered keepers document however consent is needed from the legal owner before hand, written or verbal it doesn't matter.

    That would be like me popping over to your house for a cup of tea, snapping up a picture of your car and then selling it on gumtree without asking, its illegal.
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 12:51 PM
    • 17 Posts
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    Len86
    What happened to the original logbook? Did he complete and give you the green "new keeper" slip? Did you send that off and get a new V5C?

    You will be aware that the V5C is not proof of ownership. Do you have proof of ownership? Any written evidence of the agreement to repair?
    Originally posted by Car 54
    Yes absolutely, log book was filled out and all paperwork is stored away safely, including all emails which he has signed off on many times before me sending the vehicle back clearly agreeing to all costs of transport and repairs. Even though I sent them to his solicitors, they played blind completely to contract law ignoring it completely.
    Last edited by Len86; 08-10-2017 at 12:53 PM.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 8th Oct 17, 12:56 PM
    • 392 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    you are clearly having a laugh and mocking me. i'm not interested in continuing this with you, i came here for some legal advice you are clearing being childish.
    Originally posted by Len86
    Pay a solicitor then.
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 12:58 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Len86
    Pay a solicitor then.
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    Go away. other people are helping, thank you.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 8th Oct 17, 12:58 PM
    • 392 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    You missed the other part about consent. It is true a log book is only a registered keepers document however consent is needed from the legal owner before hand, written or verbal it doesn't matter.

    That would be like me popping over to your house for a cup of tea, snapping up a picture of your car and then selling it on gumtree without asking, its illegal.
    Originally posted by Len86
    No, it would be more like you dumping your car on his drive for two years and having given you notice he disposes of it.
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 1:08 PM
    • 17 Posts
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    Len86
    Any moderator that can step in here please?
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 8th Oct 17, 1:27 PM
    • 13,043 Posts
    • 8,266 Thanks
    arcon5
    You'll struggle to get anywhere from a criminal perspective. A bailee (as they were) can follow a set procedure then dispose of goods, they can then deduct their losses and return the remaining balance. That will be their argument.
    However this may not hold ground if it can be demonstrated they wrongfully withheld the goods and/or breached the contract.
    In this case you are arguing the goods was faulty, thus breached sales of goods act (as it was at the time), they dispute this claim.

    The police would see it as a civil matter.

    You'd need to go to court for a resolution if one cannot be reached now. You'd need to demonstrate your case that the vehicle did not comply with the contract (including terms iimposed by law at the time regarding their fitness for purpose and quality). A court would seek for you to demonstrate your case adequately, they would though I suspect seek to quantify their losses in the event the court sided with the seller as well as consider the evidence to the contrary the seller may offer.

    The time lapsed shouldn't be relevant in terms of the seller justifying their losses but may complicate things if any party argued their vehicle report was disposed off due to the time lapsed and I suspect witness statements would offer little value.

    You may or may not win but even if you don't win you may get an award if they didn't mitigate their losses and if they cannot justify the losses they are claiming you caused them.
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 8th Oct 17, 1:28 PM
    • 13,043 Posts
    • 8,266 Thanks
    arcon5
    How much money are we talking about?
    And as important as that are they still trading and have you confirmed the vehicle was sold to you by a sole trader or a company
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 1:34 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Len86
    How much money are we talking about?
    And as important as that are they still trading and have you confirmed the vehicle was sold to you by a sole trader or a company
    Originally posted by arcon5
    £4000 plus shipping costs. Yes, it was sold under the trade name as trade, not private.
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 1:41 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Len86
    You'll struggle to get anywhere from a criminal perspective. A bailee (as they were) can follow a set procedure then dispose of goods, they can then deduct their losses and return the remaining balance. That will be their argument.
    However this may not hold ground if it can be demonstrated they wrongfully withheld the goods and/or breached the contract.
    In this case you are arguing the goods was faulty, thus breached sales of goods act (as it was at the time), they dispute this claim.

    The police would see it as a civil matter.

    You'd need to go to court for a resolution if one cannot be reached now. You'd need to demonstrate your case that the vehicle did not comply with the contract (including terms iimposed by law at the time regarding their fitness for purpose and quality). A court would seek for you to demonstrate your case adequately, they would though I suspect seek to quantify their losses in the event the court sided with the seller as well as consider the evidence to the contrary the seller may offer.

    The time lapsed shouldn't be relevant in terms of the seller justifying their losses but may complicate things if any party argued their vehicle report was disposed off due to the time lapsed and I suspect witness statements would offer little value.

    You may or may not win but even if you don't win you may get an award if they didn't mitigate their losses and if they cannot justify the losses they are claiming you caused them.
    Originally posted by arcon5
    Thank you for the reply, it was very helpful!

    Breach of contract law is clear as daylight so no worry there. I also have two copies of 'inspection' reports so they can't claim they've lost them. On the final one they admit that the windscreen was sold damaged and was replaced with a new one (apparently) upon second inspection.

    So far so good, looks like I might have something to go on, I will need some help however. Should I go straight to the small claims? I did tell them this back then but they couldn't have cared less.

    Regarding the police, if they did sell instead of dispose, is that not criminal? (without log book and or more importantly consent from legal owner?)

    thanks again
    • arcon5
    • By arcon5 8th Oct 17, 1:47 PM
    • 13,043 Posts
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    arcon5
    No not criminal.. police will tell you it's a civil dispute.

    Write a letter before action
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 1:51 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Len86
    No not criminal.. police will tell you it's a civil dispute.

    Write a letter before action
    Originally posted by arcon5
    Any specific template to go by? All help here would be useful as they genuinely fobbed me off many times in the past.

    As I already have given them notice that I would have taken court action back then, is that not enough just to go ahead and do so? They ignored it then anyway.
    • rich13348
    • By rich13348 8th Oct 17, 1:56 PM
    • 800 Posts
    • 426 Thanks
    rich13348
    Any specific template to go by? All help here would be useful as they genuinely fobbed me off many times in the past.

    As I already have given them notice that I would have taken court action back then, is that not enough just to go ahead and do so? They ignored it then anyway.
    Originally posted by Len86
    A Letter Before Action is a legal document setting out what you want when you want it and how it can be handled or you will take legal action.

    Mentioning legal action in an otherwise normal email is not an LBO. The LBO gives the other side a chance to rectify the issues to avoid court. If not supplied a judge would not look favourably on this as you have not tried everything to sort it out before involving the court.

    Search LBO template and you should find examples.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/going-to-court/taking-court-action/step-one-write-a-letter-before-action/
    Last edited by rich13348; 08-10-2017 at 1:58 PM. Reason: Added link to CAB website
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 2:21 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Len86
    Thanks, just one last thing to ask as this seems important.

    What if whilst abroad they applied for bailment and got a court order to dispose of the vehicle. If this did happen, and failed to disclose to the court at the time the full evidence, including inspection reports, plus signed agreements etc before hand and the court proceeded with only what was supplied to them, can this be reversed if I then present evidence that shows they intentionally held back this information? (and can they get done for it?)

    Don't forget by this time they would have known I was no longer in the country, as I did inform their solicitors this, I also specified that I wish to kept informed/intouch via email until stated otherwise, so they would have known I wouldn't have received any paperwork from the courts - what would happened if they failed to disclose this to the court, etc?
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 8th Oct 17, 2:24 PM
    • 2,293 Posts
    • 1,470 Thanks
    Car 54
    A Letter Before Action is a legal document setting out what you want when you want it and how it can be handled or you will take legal action.

    Mentioning legal action in an otherwise normal email is not an LBO. The LBO gives the other side a chance to rectify the issues to avoid court. If not supplied a judge would not look favourably on this as you have not tried everything to sort it out before involving the court.

    Search LBO template and you should find examples.

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/going-to-court/taking-court-action/step-one-write-a-letter-before-action/
    Originally posted by rich13348
    You'll find more relevant examples if you use LBA
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 8th Oct 17, 9:44 PM
    • 1,056 Posts
    • 1,276 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    Any moderator that can step in here please?
    Originally posted by Len86
    You could try simply ignoring the advice you don't want to hear, it's not difficult.
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