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  • FIRST POST
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 3:04 AM
    • 17Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Len86
    taken to the cleaners a while back...
    • #1
    • 8th Oct 17, 3:04 AM
    taken to the cleaners a while back... 8th Oct 17 at 3:04 AM
    not sure where to start so here goes nothing. A few years ago I purchased a vehicle online from a trader, it was a used but very low mileage one owner car. The trader offered to have it shipped to me instead of me coming down and viewing the car to which I agreed. It arrived a few weeks later well past midnight in the freezing cold, I took a quick look around and it seemed OK at first glance.

    Once I sorted out the insurance in the morning I got in and immediately realised many things wrong with it. Flat tyre, handbrake was jammed, idled rough, damp in the footwell, etc etc. Once I got it moving, odd sounds where coming from the rear differential area, it pulled heavily to one side, aircon was faulty - nothing was right with it.

    I got on the phone to the trader who assured me it passed an MOT with flying colours and none of this had shown however because he was such a nice fella he agreed to have the car collected and shipped back to him and repaired and returned FREE of charge. This is in writing, so no misunderstanding there (still got copies.)

    A few weeks later I get a phone call telling me the vehicle was checked and nothing was found, and for that reason, I better pay him for the transport to and from and also the cost of inspection somewhere in the region of £1000??? I told him he must be having a laugh and to have it looked at again as I wasn't going to pay him a dime (not to mention, as per agreement, in writing.) He gets back to me two weeks later telling me it has been checked out again and a few faults found (irrelevant to the original faults) and that they where all sorted now BUT (and here is where it gets interesting) I must still cough up the £1000 for the all of this plus storage costs for every day I don't pay up. Knowing now I was dealing with a cowboy I threatened with legal action for which I received a menacing letter from his solicitors which went on for over a month.... backwards and forwards.

    Now, between the time of actual purchase and to this point I think a good three months had pasted, and not long after, family troubles forced me to end up having to leave and go abroad for almost two years. I kept in touch via email with his (even more cowboy) solicitors but this ended up going nowhere.

    Now that I'm back, where do I stand on this exactly? Can I still pursue this in small claims court? It is still within the 5 years.

    The solicitors claim he has sold the vehicle to recover his false costs. If so, is this not fraud? (logbook fraud?)

    Where do I stand?
Page 1
    • wgl2014
    • By wgl2014 8th Oct 17, 8:47 AM
    • 314 Posts
    • 171 Thanks
    wgl2014
    • #2
    • 8th Oct 17, 8:47 AM
    • #2
    • 8th Oct 17, 8:47 AM
    A few years ago? Can you be more precise?

    What did you pay for the car and what is it, the reason I ask is to determine what it would be worth now.

    Might be a case of cut your losses on this one.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 8th Oct 17, 8:52 AM
    • 2,296 Posts
    • 1,472 Thanks
    Car 54
    • #3
    • 8th Oct 17, 8:52 AM
    • #3
    • 8th Oct 17, 8:52 AM
    A dark matter indeed.
    • soolin
    • By soolin 8th Oct 17, 9:11 AM
    • 59,282 Posts
    • 42,021 Thanks
    soolin
    • #4
    • 8th Oct 17, 9:11 AM
    • #4
    • 8th Oct 17, 9:11 AM
    It all seems a little strange, so you are at least 3 years on from the purchase and basically have had no correspondence for at least the last 2 years of that? Definitely something odd here, is there anything else that perhaps you have omitted to make this a little more likely, as it stands at the moment it seems very odd indeed.

    However, you mention corresponding with the seller so does that mean you have a proper geographic address for them? Also do you have their full trading details and are they still trading?
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move posts there. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
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    • worried jim
    • By worried jim 8th Oct 17, 9:22 AM
    • 8,645 Posts
    • 13,172 Thanks
    worried jim
    • #5
    • 8th Oct 17, 9:22 AM
    • #5
    • 8th Oct 17, 9:22 AM
    A dark matter indeed.
    Originally posted by Car 54
    Only yesterday I was thinking that it had been a while. Welcome back DM.
    "Only two things are infinite-the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not so sure about the universe"
    Albert Einstein
    • BeenThroughItAll
    • By BeenThroughItAll 8th Oct 17, 10:12 AM
    • 4,519 Posts
    • 3,900 Thanks
    BeenThroughItAll
    • #6
    • 8th Oct 17, 10:12 AM
    • #6
    • 8th Oct 17, 10:12 AM
    Don't want to !!!! on anyone's chips, but the style is all wrong for DM101.

    There is a couple of other suspects out there at the moment though.
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 11:54 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Len86
    • #7
    • 8th Oct 17, 11:54 AM
    • #7
    • 8th Oct 17, 11:54 AM
    some details to follow up

    yes after the tit for tat with the solicitors which lasted months, the last email I received from those cowboys was that their client WILL sell the car. I responded that it would be illegal as that would (probably) be a case of logbook fraud for which I never heard anything back from them again.

    yes they are still trading I checked it yesterday. It does sound odd but at the time I was dealing with a matter a thousand times more serious which ended up with me having to leave and stay abroad for two years, this simply was no longer something I could afford to focus on.

    But now that I am back and have some free time, where do I stand here? from the start they would have committed contract fraud, as they agreed one thing (on paper - then saying I need to pay for it, then threatening to sell it if I didn't) and possibly now log book fraud if they have sold the vehicle to someone else? I am still the legal owner so can I not get the police involved if they have sold it?

    I'm sure I have a case here just need some help in the right direction.
    Last edited by Len86; 08-10-2017 at 12:01 PM.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 8th Oct 17, 12:06 PM
    • 408 Posts
    • 198 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    • #8
    • 8th Oct 17, 12:06 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Oct 17, 12:06 PM
    some details to follow up

    yes after the tit for tat with the solicitors which lasted months, the last email I received from those cowboys was that their client WILL sell the car. I responded that it would be illegal as that would (probably) be a case of logbook fraud for which I never heard anything back from them again.

    yes they are still trading I checked it yesterday. It does sound odd but at the time I was dealing with a matter a thousand times more serious which ended up with me having to leave and stay abroad for two years, this simply was no longer something I could afford to focus on.

    But now that I am back and have some free time, where do I stand here? from the start they would have committed contract fraud, as they agreed one thing (on paper - then saying I need to pay for it, then threatening to sell it if I didn't) and possibly now log book fraud if they have sold the vehicle to someone else? I am still the legal owner so can I not get the police involved if they have sold it?

    I'm sure I have a case here just need some help in the right direction.
    Originally posted by Len86
    What's log book fraud?
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 8th Oct 17, 12:09 PM
    • 2,296 Posts
    • 1,472 Thanks
    Car 54
    • #9
    • 8th Oct 17, 12:09 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Oct 17, 12:09 PM
    What's log book fraud?
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    What's contract fraud?
    • ratrace
    • By ratrace 8th Oct 17, 12:09 PM
    • 460 Posts
    • 311 Thanks
    ratrace
    What car is it?
    how much did you pay?

    if it was expensive a few £££'s then some would say you are also to blame as you did not go and view the car and test drive it cars cost a lot of money so not seeing and inspecting it before buying was a really silly move imo, dealers are NOT your friend they are in business to make money

    im not sure you can do anything its best to take legal advise and go from there
    People are caught up in an egotistic artificial rat race to display a false image to society. We want the biggest house, fanciest car, and we don't mind paying the sky high mortgage to put up that show. We sacrifice our biggest assets our health and time, We feel happy when we see people look up to us and see how successful we are”

    Rat Race
    • maddogb
    • By maddogb 8th Oct 17, 12:13 PM
    • 464 Posts
    • 73 Thanks
    maddogb
    https://www.fsp-law.com/articles/can-a-dealer-keep-the-customers-car
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 12:14 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Len86
    What's log book fraud?
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    in order to sell a car to someone you must have a log book or consent from the owner. If not the only other way would be to apply for a new logbook in the absence of the owner with fraudulent details such as "I am the new owner" and selling it on. It used to be a thing years ago and I'm sure they had dubbed it logbook fraud.
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 12:18 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Len86
    What's contract fraud?
    Originally posted by Car 54
    not quite sure if you guys are just taking the mickey now to be honest.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 8th Oct 17, 12:21 PM
    • 408 Posts
    • 198 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    not sure where to start so here goes nothing. A few years ago I purchased a vehicle online from a trader, it was a used but very low mileage one owner car. The trader offered to have it shipped to me instead of me coming down and viewing the car to which I agreed. It arrived a few weeks later well past midnight in the freezing cold, I took a quick look around and it seemed OK at first glance.

    Once I sorted out the insurance in the morning I got in and immediately realised many things wrong with it. Flat tyre, handbrake was jammed, idled rough, damp in the footwell, etc etc. Once I got it moving, odd sounds where coming from the rear differential area, it pulled heavily to one side, aircon was faulty - nothing was right with it.

    I got on the phone to the trader who assured me it passed an MOT with flying colours and none of this had shown however because he was such a nice fella he agreed to have the car collected and shipped back to him and repaired and returned FREE of charge. This is in writing, so no misunderstanding there (still got copies.)

    A few weeks later I get a phone call telling me the vehicle was checked and nothing was found, and for that reason, I better pay him for the transport to and from and also the cost of inspection somewhere in the region of £1000??? I told him he must be having a laugh and to have it looked at again as I wasn't going to pay him a dime (not to mention, as per agreement, in writing.) He gets back to me two weeks later telling me it has been checked out again and a few faults found (irrelevant to the original faults) and that they where all sorted now BUT (and here is where it gets interesting) I must still cough up the £1000 for the all of this plus storage costs for every day I don't pay up. Knowing now I was dealing with a cowboy I threatened with legal action for which I received a menacing letter from his solicitors which went on for over a month.... backwards and forwards.

    Now, between the time of actual purchase and to this point I think a good three months had pasted, and not long after, family troubles forced me to end up having to leave and go abroad for almost two years. I kept in touch via email with his (even more cowboy) solicitors but this ended up going nowhere.

    Now that I'm back, where do I stand on this exactly? Can I still pursue this in small claims court? It is still within the 5 years.

    The solicitors claim he has sold the vehicle to recover his false costs. If so, is this not fraud? (logbook fraud?)

    Where do I stand?
    Originally posted by Len86
    Where was the vehicle during this time?
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 8th Oct 17, 12:22 PM
    • 408 Posts
    • 198 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    in order to sell a car to someone you must have a log book or consent from the owner. If not the only other way would be to apply for a new logbook in the absence of the owner with fraudulent details such as "I am the new owner" and selling it on. It used to be a thing years ago and I'm sure they had dubbed it logbook fraud.
    Originally posted by Len86
    What section of the fraud act is log book fraud?
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 12:23 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Len86
    articles/can-a-dealer-keep-the-customers-car
    Originally posted by maddogb
    thanks for that, reading through it it seems that it favours me more then anything. As no T&C was mentioned, nor implied. Also, in writing, the garage offered to pay for EVERYTHING free of charge which is the agreement full stop.

    If this is the case, what is the next step? small claims?
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 12:24 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Len86
    What section of the fraud act is log book fraud?
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    let me just take out my law degree..... one moment please.
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 12:25 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Len86
    Where was the vehicle during this time?
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    Still with the trader, or as his solicitors claim, sold on.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 8th Oct 17, 12:28 PM
    • 408 Posts
    • 198 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    Still with the trader, or as his solicitors claim, sold on.
    Originally posted by Len86
    So you expected him to store the car for two years?
    • Len86
    • By Len86 8th Oct 17, 12:32 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Len86
    So you expected him to store the car for two years?
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    he lied and took the vehicle back under false pretense, with an agreement in place to repair the car at his expense - he is not innocent in this. simple as. He no longer can claim that he had the right to charge me storage or sell the car on. You are missing the point clearly. And if he has sold the car then he would have applied for a logbook fraudulently.
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