Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 7th Oct 17, 6:09 PM
    • 55Posts
    • 11Thanks
    fumin37
    Esa hell ..desperate for feedback and advice anyone please :-)
    • #1
    • 7th Oct 17, 6:09 PM
    Esa hell ..desperate for feedback and advice anyone please :-) 7th Oct 17 at 6:09 PM
    Hi ...i have posted this on anothe forum but not getting the advice im looking for due to it being the weekend ..someone kindly gave me tbe link for here ..so here goes!
    I applied for ESA last year in November 2016 due to severersl conditions that i could no longer manage to work through anymore
    and went to the medical some time later which of course i failed.
    Iwent for a MR straight away ,failed and took it to tribunal.
    i claimed ESA at the assesemnt rate during this time.
    I then unbelievably missed two tribunals around march time due to a mix up and confusion with dates they had given me and my annoying cognative issues.
    i finally got to tribunal in May 2017 where they immedistely stated they woukd not be able to take my new evidence (of new conditions) into account as my claim was made in November.
    i basically failed on the spot because of this.
    i contacted ESA immediately while at the CAB and the man i spoke to said it was wrong of the tribunal to refuse my evidence and to re apply gor ESA again on the grounds of my new and worsening conditions .I semt in a fit note that day backing this up and was told to sign on jsa in the interim.
    I was then told by jsa before i had even had a payment that i had been put straight back onto ESA based on my fit note.I had not at this point even sent off new claim forms.
    I then remained on ESA untill my WCA last month.
    I then failed that too but with 6 points as apposed to 0.
    I asked for a MR and sent in more harder evidence including a letter from my doctor and the decision was overturned.
    I have now after a year of absaloute stress and turmoil been placed into the WRAG group.
    but my initial relief has turned to anxiety when i realised my "new claim"was made literally a few weeks after the cuts came in and i will now still be struggling just as much as i have been on the lowest rate of ESA and i imagine NO back pay .

    I do not know this for sure as i still have no award letter but this is how im guessing its going to be ?
    Unless the dwp back dates to my original claim back in Novemember last year due to my worsening and new conditions.I am still VERY confused by all of this and the idea of having to continue to live at subsistance level while being unwell and trying to support a family fills me with dread And my benefits have been all over the place due to being forced to claim jsa for a week.weve been to the food bank 3 times in the last few weeks..
    i realise this is a bit of a long post but any advice would be so gladly appreciated !so many thsnks in advance if anyone has the energy to read through it and give me some feed back !:-)
Page 5
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 11th Oct 17, 12:54 AM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    Neil cr again truly the greatest of respect to you ,And i do hear your concerns ,but i resent what you are saying as it is completely innacurate .please do not accuse me, or imply that i am dishonest as that absaloutely couldnt be further from the truth .There was NO premeditation involved and nothing covert or sneeky, no deeply personal info shared. Its just a simple call back that i needed clarifacation for in order to be able to log in writing what was said by the dwp on my own telephone /property that no longer exists .bearing in mind also, that i had spent the entire morning phoning dwp trying to get hold of the info epitome had suggested to me i try to get, and spending most of my life going up and down from the cab its not surprising i just so happened to get a call back while i was in the office .
    There is serious corruption that goes on all over the place,people being treated extremely badly,things being said and not said etc etc in the world ,and you are concerned about a 5 minute personal phone call made to me that no one will ever,ever hear.plus a maximum of two or three simple questions my worker asked for me ,that i couldnt wrap my head around and remember to ask at that particular moment in time Its hardly crime of the century.
    • Ames
    • By Ames 11th Oct 17, 1:30 AM
    • 16,344 Posts
    • 28,619 Thanks
    Ames
    Fumin- I don't think you realise that you're making a serious allegation of misconduct against CAB. One that could damage their relationship with the DWP and stop other people getting help. It also damages their reputation.

    Unless the person from the DWP who was on the phone knew it was being recorded your CAB worker was breaking the rules. That's why Neil and others are concerned.

    Did your CAB worker know that that specific call was being recorded, or had you just mentioned in the past that you automatically record all calls?
    Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.

    Reading the alphabet in 2017. 21/100
    ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 11th Oct 17, 10:36 AM
    • 1,031 Posts
    • 1,107 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Fumin- I don't think you realise that you're making a serious allegation of misconduct against CAB. One that could damage their relationship with the DWP and stop other people getting help. It also damages their reputation.

    Unless the person from the DWP who was on the phone knew it was being recorded your CAB worker was breaking the rules. That's why Neil and others are concerned.

    Did your CAB worker know that that specific call was being recorded, or had you just mentioned in the past that you automatically record all calls?
    Originally posted by Ames
    Thanks for expressing it better than I Ames

    Seems to me to be two possible scenarios

    a) the CAB worker knew about the recording

    Or much more likely

    b) Fumin and the worker were having a meeting - the phone went. It was the DWP - Fumin asked the worker to speak to them. Worker didn’t realise or had forgotten about the recording -Fumin thought they knew. It was all a bit spur of the moment. I’ve been in that situation and it didn’t occur to me that there was a recording app on the phone. Personally, I’d want to know myself if I was being recorded let alone anyone else

    Fumin. Honestly not really having a go at you but it is serious for a CAB worker and I am continuing with this because I don’t want others to think that CAB is in any way okay about recording conversations without telling the other party

    If you are ever in this position again please don’t assume anything. Tell the CAB worker about the recording app before they get into the conversation
    • Penitent
    • By Penitent 11th Oct 17, 11:07 AM
    • 1,361 Posts
    • 4,153 Thanks
    Penitent
    Aren't all calls to/from the DWP (potentially) recorded by the DWP? Can a DWP employee say they were being recorded without their consent if they've already consented for their employer to record them?
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 11th Oct 17, 11:32 AM
    • 1,031 Posts
    • 1,107 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Aren't all calls to/from the DWP (potentially) recorded by the DWP? Can a DWP employee say they were being recorded without their consent if they've already consented for their employer to record them?
    Originally posted by Penitent
    I think it may be okay to record a call with DWP if, as has been said, it’s for refreshing your own memory, a transcript is made and the call deleted

    The issue here, though, is the involvement of a third party, the CAB
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 11th Oct 17, 1:33 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    Neil CR (b) is exactly what happened.I expect thats why my worker said not to worry ,as they know ,I have always been honest about the fact that i record my dwp calls .including straight after it .Plus i expressed my apologees to them the next day and hoped they didnt think i was intentionally tying to trap them into being on my call as i would never intentially do that.
    And they were fine about it .like you say probably because i have always made them aware its what i do so theres nothing undercover about it .
    call no longer exists now anyway.
    other than that i have no concience re recording my own calls with these bodies.For me it is neccesary.It is fine for them to record me without asking and so the same should apply the other way round .
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 11th Oct 17, 1:37 PM
    • 1,031 Posts
    • 1,107 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Neil CR (b) is exactly what happened.I expect thats why my worker said not to worry ,as they know ,I have always been honest about the fact that i record my dwp calls .including straight after it .Plus i expressed my apologees to them the next day and hoped they didnt think i was intentionally tying to trap them into being on my call as i would never intentially do that.
    And they were fine about it .like you say probably because i have always made them aware its what i do so theres nothing undercover about it .
    call no longer exists now anyway.
    other than that i have no concience re recording my own calls with these bodies.For me it is neccesary.It is fine for them to record me without asking and so the same should apply the other way round .
    Originally posted by fumin37
    That’s cool then Fumin

    I’d have understood in that situation too. But asked you to remind me next time!
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 11th Oct 17, 2:37 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    The outcome of this situation anyway lol .Is that i spoke to someone at the DWP again this morning as i have not been paid .
    This man was extremely helpful and thank god DID actually know what he was talking about .
    The problem and issue was around june,and the fact that the tribunal refused to take on my additional evidence.
    He told me that this was almost certainly an error of law.
    particularly as i was told within the first two minutes they would not be taking the new diagnosis into account amd would be pursuing the case on my old evidence.
    He likened it to being sentenced before youve stated your case.Even though the tribunal did continue with the case,we all knew it was futile since they had already decided before i went in.
    He has has told me i need to appeal again against the decision in June and gather more evidence to back up how my conditions are affecting me .
    I have also been told that i am definitely on the basic rate because of thid failed tribunal in june .
    So finaly some sense.
    That doesnt make anything feel any better to be honest.for a year and a half ive been consumed bu this .To find out i will be recieving the same amount of money i am already struggling to survive on .
    The only real plus is that i wont be seriously harrassed for a year .
    I atleast know i will be remaining on ONE benefit and so that offers "some "stsbility.
    however no sooner than i finished my call thsn a brown letter plops on my doormat informing me i have to attend a work coach interview in a few days time for an hour at the local job centre.
    so ultimately while they are telling people they are on ESA effectively this is a prettied up,slightly more relaxed version of JSA and subject to the same sanctions.
    so really ,nothing has actually changed for me except for that i am now 100 times nore exhausted and unwell than i was when this all started.
    I have the deepest sympathy for all unwell adults and dependant children who are being harmed by this government.
    something seriously needs to be done about it as it is totally and utterly unethical.
    Although it wont of course as they want us all either dead or sicker or atleast swept under the carpet out of sight.
    Its disgusting.
    • pipkin71
    • By pipkin71 11th Oct 17, 6:47 PM
    • 18,888 Posts
    • 82,923 Thanks
    pipkin71
    The outcome of this situation anyway lol .Is that i spoke to someone at the DWP again this morning as i have not been paid .
    This man was extremely helpful and thank god DID actually know what he was talking about .
    The problem and issue was around june,and the fact that the tribunal refused to take on my additional evidence.
    He told me that this was almost certainly an error of law.
    particularly as i was told within the first two minutes they would not be taking the new diagnosis into account amd would be pursuing the case on my old evidence.
    He likened it to being sentenced before youve stated your case.Even though the tribunal did continue with the case,we all knew it was futile since they had already decided before i went in.
    He has has told me i need to appeal again against the decision in June and gather more evidence to back up how my conditions are affecting me .
    I have also been told that i am definitely on the basic rate because of thid failed tribunal in june .
    So finaly some sense.
    That doesnt make anything feel any better to be honest.for a year and a half ive been consumed bu this .To find out i will be recieving the same amount of money i am already struggling to survive on .
    The only real plus is that i wont be seriously harrassed for a year .
    I atleast know i will be remaining on ONE benefit and so that offers "some "stsbility.
    however no sooner than i finished my call thsn a brown letter plops on my doormat informing me i have to attend a work coach interview in a few days time for an hour at the local job centre.
    so ultimately while they are telling people they are on ESA effectively this is a prettied up,slightly more relaxed version of JSA and subject to the same sanctions.
    so really ,nothing has actually changed for me except for that i am now 100 times nore exhausted and unwell than i was when this all started.
    I have the deepest sympathy for all unwell adults and dependant children who are being harmed by this government.
    something seriously needs to be done about it as it is totally and utterly unethical.
    Although it wont of course as they want us all either dead or sicker or atleast swept under the carpet out of sight.
    Its disgusting.
    Originally posted by fumin37
    I do wonder about what you've been told, re the tribunal accepting evidence of a new condition.

    My understanding has always been that, since they are ruling on a failed assessment, they only look at the information supplied with the application for that period, and don't take either a worsening condition or a new health condition into account, as that wouldn't have been on the original forms.
    There is something delicious about writing the first words of a story. You never quite know where they'll take you - Beatrix Potter
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 11th Oct 17, 7:05 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    I dont know ,I give up pipkin !
    far too much conflicting advice.
    One would think that the people at ESA would be the people who know ?
    He seemed very clear about the decision not to take additional evidence as being completely wrong.
    I was also told this exact same thing at the time by a different dwp worker.
    who knows its is too confusing.
    • pipkin71
    • By pipkin71 11th Oct 17, 7:48 PM
    • 18,888 Posts
    • 82,923 Thanks
    pipkin71
    I dont know ,I give up pipkin !
    far too much conflicting advice.
    One would think that the people at ESA would be the people who know ?
    He seemed very clear about the decision not to take additional evidence as being completely wrong.
    I was also told this exact same thing at the time by a different dwp worker.
    who knows its is too confusing.
    Originally posted by fumin37
    I'm not surprised you find it confusing.

    Did he tell you who you need to appeal to?
    There is something delicious about writing the first words of a story. You never quite know where they'll take you - Beatrix Potter
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 11th Oct 17, 7:57 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    Yes he did pipkin, to the tribunal service .
    He also said that even though i didt make a paper claim the fact i rang up and stated my conditions had worsened straight after the tribunal counted as a new claim verbaly .
    I think i need to see a solicitor to be honest pipkin.
    • pipkin71
    • By pipkin71 11th Oct 17, 8:03 PM
    • 18,888 Posts
    • 82,923 Thanks
    pipkin71
    Yes he did pipkin, to the tribunal service .
    He also said that even though i didt make a paper claim the fact i rang up and stated my conditions had worsened straight after the tribunal counted as a new claim verbaly .
    I think i need to see a solicitor to be honest pipkin.
    Originally posted by fumin37
    Good luck with it all
    There is something delicious about writing the first words of a story. You never quite know where they'll take you - Beatrix Potter
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 11th Oct 17, 8:07 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    Thankyou so much pipkin .I need it
    • epitome
    • By epitome 11th Oct 17, 8:59 PM
    • 2,873 Posts
    • 1,778 Thanks
    epitome
    The problem and issue was around june,and the fact that the tribunal refused to take on my additional evidence.
    He told me that this was almost certainly an error of law.
    Originally posted by fumin37
    Unfortunately he is almost certainly wrong. A tribunal will look at your medical condition as it was before and as it was at the time of the decision. The tribunal cannot consider any evidence of worsening that has occured after the decision date.

    He has has told me i need to appeal again against the decision in June and gather more evidence to back up how my conditions are affecting me .
    You can only do so if you find an error in law, which you have not found yet, and would have to argue "at the date of decision" how you would have been entitled to ESA.

    He also said that even though i didt make a paper claim the fact i rang up and stated my conditions had worsened straight after the tribunal counted as a new claim verbaly .
    Originally posted by fumin37
    What he is saying here, is impossible.
    I think i need to see a solicitor to be honest pipkin.
    What you need to do is phone tribunal and ask for a Written Statement of Reasons for the June 2017 hearing. Then, I agree ask to see a solicitor, through the CAB perhaps. If it is too late to appeal to the Upper Tribunal, or they won't allow you to do it, as you have no error in law. There is still the option of Judicial Review, your solicitor can advise you on that....but any review will only take account of your medical condition as it was before the decision date.

    Good Luck.....


    Aren't all calls to/from the DWP (potentially) recorded by the DWP? Can a DWP employee say they were being recorded without their consent if they've already consented for their employer to record them?
    Originally posted by Penitent
    The DWP has no policy on claimants recording calls. AIUI, The law does not require either party in a phone conversation to say they are recording a call, unless they intend to publish or potentially use the call recording in evidence.

    That said, if you inform the DWP person that you are recording the call, they have to right to refuse consent and end the call.

    Anyone who calls the DWP can request the audio copy call recording, so in theory there is no need for a claimant to record the call. All inbound calls to the network lines are recorded by DWP. However, as I have said many times here, not all DWP staff log the calls in the way they are supposed to..making finding the call later very difficult...but not impossible...To find such a "lost" call, you, the caller, should keep a diary of every call you make to the DWP.
    • The phone number you are calling from
    • The date
    • The time you dialled
    • The exact time the call is answered by the staff member
    • The staff members first name
    • The office location, the name of the town, i.e. Grimsby, Bootle etc
    • The content of the call, what was discussed
    They say this in their call greeting. If you miss it, ask them again, and make sure they say a name of a town and not something generic like "Central office" "Courts Building"

    Very rarely you may be given a direct dial number to call a specific department these inbound calls will not be recorded by DWP.

    DWP outbound calls are generally not recorded, some of them are supposed to be like Decision Maker calls, but even these are rarely recorded.
    Last edited by epitome; 11-10-2017 at 9:43 PM.
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 11th Oct 17, 9:24 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    Thankyou again epitome .
    You can see ,from everything i have posted from the begining here just how much i have been getting messed around and how it looks as though it is "me" mixing things up .
    This has caused unbelievable distress.
    Unfortunately i am not entitled to legal aid .So will only be able to get advice.
    I agree that the verbal over the phone suposed claim is bizzare ..basically i didnt make one simple as that.
    And im sorry but i do feel that someone has cocked up along the way ,have been changing their rules at every single call, and i have been on the recieving end of all these mixed messsges.
    Thankyou also for the clarification about phone calls too.Thats good to know.
    • DavidF
    • By DavidF 11th Oct 17, 9:43 PM
    • 438 Posts
    • 2,468 Thanks
    DavidF
    Is there not any chance you could appeal and get into the support group ? Are your conditions treatable or likely to improve ?
    Not wanting to rejig the past but if you and your daughter suffer from the same condition then she should be able to use your "experience" to prepare herself for the "battle".
    My misses has a fairly rare condition that not many know about.....at the end of the day it's all about having evidence of the condition and evidence backed up by a "professional" that states how your condition limits you......Believe me I know that is far too easy to write and much much harder in the real world.
    Occupational therapists, Support workers, Carers, Physio's, Consultants, nurses and finally GP's are all good to reasonable sources of evidence. Trust me I know it's not much fun explaining a condition that effects less than 1% of the population.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 11th Oct 17, 10:09 PM
    • 2,873 Posts
    • 1,778 Thanks
    epitome
    If Fumin is to get into the Support Group
    She will need a error in law on the latest Tribunal hearing to take it to Upper Tribunal....the first step is to ask Tribunal for a Written Statement of Reasons for both hearings.

    Or to get evidence of another worsening condition now, send it to ESA with a request to be re-assessed for Support Group, she will have another medical Asessment and if necessary, appeal the decision. The decision could be No LCW and the claim could be closed, but on this one, she would then be allowed to be paid on appeal. And the new Tribunal could say she has No LCW and close her ESA, losing her appeal.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 11th Oct 17, 11:01 PM
    • 1,481 Posts
    • 1,577 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    I dont know ,I give up pipkin !
    far too much conflicting advice.
    One would think that the people at ESA would be the people who know ?
    He seemed very clear about the decision not to take additional evidence as being completely wrong.
    I was also told this exact same thing at the time by a different dwp worker.
    who knows its is too confusing.
    Originally posted by fumin37
    This advice was completely wrong.

    The tribunal is reviewing the DWP decision on the date that the DWP made that decision not to award you ESA (which will be some months before the decision date).
    They can only consider your condition and abilities re ESA activities at that date - because you have asked them to adjudicate on whether that decision was correct or incorrect. They cannot, in effect, use the appeal conduct a new WCA.
    Does this make sense to you?

    From your OP it seems you are now out of time to ask the UT to review the FTT decision (which has to be on an error of law).

    If you consult a solicitor you will be wasting your money.

    The best advice you have been given is by pmlindyloo at post 43.
    Apply for PIP, and make sure your daughter claims the benefits she is entitled to.
    Last edited by Alice Holt; 11-10-2017 at 11:04 PM.
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 11th Oct 17, 11:45 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    Thankyou for your kind reply David F.
    My daughter and i share a chronic life long condition which isnt realisticaly treatable and will never get better .
    On top of that i have one degenerative condition which cant be treated yet.
    I have 4 other conditions which are a bit more complex.Unfortunately i look perfectly fine most of the time.
    DWP have had LOTS and lots of evidence from doctors ,specialists etc and they aknowledge there is no doubt my conditions exist.
    One massive problem with gathering evidence i have found however is the distinct lack of support ie ..waiting months on end to see specialists.Being bounced back and forth from one service back to another or back to the gp ,being unable to get drs appointments ,not being able to get hold of support workers etc etc.all this needs to be done in time for assesements,medicals ,tribunals etc etc ..
    Apparantly its down to me being able to PROVE how these affect me.Yet at every turn it is made so difficult to do this when the support simply isnt there when you need it.
    I am sure by what you are saying in your post you and your partner can probably relate to this.
    As for appealing ,whats the point? They have me by the balls .I am already very concerned about the state of my health and how much more i can reasonably be expected to deal with .
    I also feel really concerned abput my daughter being caught up in this awful system so im not sure where i will go to next with all of this at the moment.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

3,436Posts Today

6,402Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • RT @LordsEconCom: On Tuesday Martin Lewis, Hannah Morrish & Shakira Martin gave evidence to the Cttee. Read the full transcript here: https?

  • Ta ta for now. Half term's starting, so I'm exchanging my MoneySavingExpert hat for one that says Daddy in big letters. See you in a week.

  • RT @thismorning: Can @MartinSLewis' deals save YOU cash? ???? https://t.co/igbHCwzeiN

  • Follow Martin