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  • FIRST POST
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 7th Oct 17, 6:09 PM
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    fumin37
    Esa hell ..desperate for feedback and advice anyone please :-)
    • #1
    • 7th Oct 17, 6:09 PM
    Esa hell ..desperate for feedback and advice anyone please :-) 7th Oct 17 at 6:09 PM
    Hi ...i have posted this on anothe forum but not getting the advice im looking for due to it being the weekend ..someone kindly gave me tbe link for here ..so here goes!
    I applied for ESA last year in November 2016 due to severersl conditions that i could no longer manage to work through anymore
    and went to the medical some time later which of course i failed.
    Iwent for a MR straight away ,failed and took it to tribunal.
    i claimed ESA at the assesemnt rate during this time.
    I then unbelievably missed two tribunals around march time due to a mix up and confusion with dates they had given me and my annoying cognative issues.
    i finally got to tribunal in May 2017 where they immedistely stated they woukd not be able to take my new evidence (of new conditions) into account as my claim was made in November.
    i basically failed on the spot because of this.
    i contacted ESA immediately while at the CAB and the man i spoke to said it was wrong of the tribunal to refuse my evidence and to re apply gor ESA again on the grounds of my new and worsening conditions .I semt in a fit note that day backing this up and was told to sign on jsa in the interim.
    I was then told by jsa before i had even had a payment that i had been put straight back onto ESA based on my fit note.I had not at this point even sent off new claim forms.
    I then remained on ESA untill my WCA last month.
    I then failed that too but with 6 points as apposed to 0.
    I asked for a MR and sent in more harder evidence including a letter from my doctor and the decision was overturned.
    I have now after a year of absaloute stress and turmoil been placed into the WRAG group.
    but my initial relief has turned to anxiety when i realised my "new claim"was made literally a few weeks after the cuts came in and i will now still be struggling just as much as i have been on the lowest rate of ESA and i imagine NO back pay .

    I do not know this for sure as i still have no award letter but this is how im guessing its going to be ?
    Unless the dwp back dates to my original claim back in Novemember last year due to my worsening and new conditions.I am still VERY confused by all of this and the idea of having to continue to live at subsistance level while being unwell and trying to support a family fills me with dread And my benefits have been all over the place due to being forced to claim jsa for a week.weve been to the food bank 3 times in the last few weeks..
    i realise this is a bit of a long post but any advice would be so gladly appreciated !so many thsnks in advance if anyone has the energy to read through it and give me some feed back !:-)
Page 4
    • bspm
    • By bspm 10th Oct 17, 3:04 PM
    • 436 Posts
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    bspm
    This is the conversation my representative at the CAB had with the woman at ESA this morning .Maybe it will make sense as to why im so confused.

    "She was put Onto ESA on the 18th of June 2016 to the 11th of June 2017 and then she had no LCW and I don't know why ,but they said
    she wasn't entitled to it anymore. So she must have put in a mandatory recon, I can't see any notes but she must have, because it then says the appeal was refused because she didn't attend twice she was given a hearing twice and she didn't go, so the claim was finished and closed and that finished with.

    (This isnt the case as i then was given a third appeal as it was accepted by the dwp that it was due to my conditions and general confusion over dates that i didnt attend the other two, and remained on ESA the entire time untill i was told by the appeal panel that my new evidence would not be accepted by them because they had to go by evidence given on my first claim made in November???)

    "She then put in for a, oh she phoned up or whatever, and then her claim was allowed because it was a worsening condition but it was a new claim, and this was from the 12th 2017 to the 18th of September and again she didn't have any LCW.
    (My worker then ask her what do you mean by that?)
    Well she wasn't allowed ,she didn't pass the medical ,you know she was found fit for work so then she put in for a mandatory recon which wasn't changed, and then it went to the appeal status and the appeal but in the meantime she had to claim Jobseeker's ,so she had to claim job seekers from the 19th of September to the 27th of September because you're not allowed two claims so she was put on Jobseeker's for that. The appeal has now been allowed but it only goes from the 12th of June right? So she's been put in the work related activity group from the 11th of September 2017 and let me just check? She's been given 12 months from, she's been given 12 months and that will be from when the appeal was heard which was what did they do? 3rd of October so she's been given 12 months work related activity and any money that's due will be backdated you know, so she's been given 12 months work related activity group from the 11th of September and we will get everything there for her on Wednesday.
    (My worker then asks roughly what the back pay will be?)
    Well it's about £29 a week extra and it's from the 11th of September so you looking at one two three four weeks about £120 you know that's just a rough idea until I look into it because of the JSA time exceeded that then it will be taken off obviously.
    Originally posted by fumin37

    Gobble de gook (if thats how you spell it!
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 10th Oct 17, 4:23 PM
    • 55 Posts
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    fumin37
    I doubt it pipkin ..but its for my own training purposes.
    If it is ok for them to record me then its ok for me to record them. If you read the above then you can see how confusing what im being told actually is .
    And when your memory and cognition is not the greatest it is easy for things to get confused and twisted, so it is for my own personal use so that i can be clear about what is being said ,and not for legal purposes or naming amd shaming.
    if its any consolation ,i feel sorry for that person..i could hear they were very stressed and really didnt have a clue what they were saying .clearly under alot of pressure like myself,But Unfortunately me and my children have been suffering hugely for months on end because of that kind of misinformation .
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 10th Oct 17, 4:26 PM
    • 1,031 Posts
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    NeilCr
    Was the CAB rep okay about the recording?
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 10th Oct 17, 4:34 PM
    • 55 Posts
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    fumin37
    Bspm .Yes well spelling isnt my strong point ,but this was speech to text and its still goobldegook.
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 10th Oct 17, 4:38 PM
    • 55 Posts
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    fumin37
    Niel cr yes completely fine .my worker was completely aware .It was the dwp who called me on my own phone while i was sitting in the office and my phone Automaticaly records calls .As i have stated ,it is not for namimg and shaming purposes .It is so i can unpick and make sense of what i am being told.It is not illegal .
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 10th Oct 17, 4:47 PM
    • 1,031 Posts
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    NeilCr
    Niel cr yes completely fine .my worker was completely aware .It was the dwp who called me on my own phone while i was sitting in the office and my phone Automaticaly records calls .As i have stated ,it is not for namimg and shaming purposes .It is so i can unpick and make sense of what i am being told.It is not illegal .
    Originally posted by fumin37
    Sorry.

    To be clear. Your CAB worker actually had the conversation with DWP? Thatís how I read it

    If thatís the case (if not apologies) did you clarify with the worker that it was fine for the conversation to be recorded before they started?

    As a CAB volunteer Iíd have been highly uncomfortable having a phone conversation with DWP that they didnít know was being recorded.
    • bspm
    • By bspm 10th Oct 17, 4:50 PM
    • 436 Posts
    • 667 Thanks
    bspm
    Bspm .Yes well spelling isnt my strong point ,but this was speech to text and its still goobldegook.
    Originally posted by fumin37
    Fumin I wasn't talking about your spelling at all, more the goobledegook spoken by the DWP.
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 10th Oct 17, 4:55 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    Yes they were completely Aware.I had informed them several times that i had an app that records all calls for my own personal use and that i need to do this so that i have a log of everything that i get told.If i had had to write down what the above person told me the other day i would have been on the phone for hours and still not been any the wiser.
    The person was and is completely aware .All calls are deleted once i have manually written down what has been said .
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 10th Oct 17, 5:03 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    Bspm lol .no but mine is not good .
    And yes i posted that to highlight exactly why i am not making sense with info on here ,because nothing i myself am being told makes sense.
    This is just one example of how many different things i am being told and as you can see, i think anyone desling with this kind of situation would be at a total loss especially when they are not in a good place .
    • pipkin71
    • By pipkin71 10th Oct 17, 6:13 PM
    • 18,888 Posts
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    pipkin71
    I doubt it pipkin ..but its for my own training purposes.
    If it is ok for them to record me then its ok for me to record them. If you read the above then you can see how confusing what im being told actually is .
    And when your memory and cognition is not the greatest it is easy for things to get confused and twisted, so it is for my own personal use so that i can be clear about what is being said ,and not for legal purposes or naming amd shaming.
    if its any consolation ,i feel sorry for that person..i could hear they were very stressed and really didnt have a clue what they were saying .clearly under alot of pressure like myself,But Unfortunately me and my children have been suffering hugely for months on end because of that kind of misinformation .
    Originally posted by fumin37
    Ok, but did you warn the person you were recording, that you were doing so? We are always told that phone calls may be recorded.

    My other concern is that a CAB representative would allow this, knowing that it breached guidelines.
    There is something delicious about writing the first words of a story. You never quite know where they'll take you - Beatrix Potter
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 10th Oct 17, 6:21 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    I have already stated they were aware yes.There are no illegal issues .recording has been deleted and any content shared is no different from me explaining what someone has said .which i am at liberty to do.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 10th Oct 17, 6:27 PM
    • 1,031 Posts
    • 1,107 Thanks
    NeilCr
    I have already stated they were aware yes.There are no illegal issues .recording has been deleted and any content shared is no different from me explaining what someone has said .which i am at liberty to do.
    Originally posted by fumin37
    I share pipkinís concerns

    Did you speak with the CAB rep on the day about the recording.? Did they know for certain that your phone was set to record? And did the DWP officer definitely not know they were being recorded?

    Forget whether you deleted it or not - thatís not the point.
    • pipkin71
    • By pipkin71 10th Oct 17, 6:29 PM
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    pipkin71
    I have already stated they were aware yes.There are no illegal issues .recording has been deleted and any content shared is no different from me explaining what someone has said .which i am at liberty to do.
    Originally posted by fumin37
    It's not illegal to record a conversation between two people, where one party is not aware of the fact they are being recorded. Problems can arise when that information is shared and, effectively, the CAB worker has shared their recorded conversation with you, since they knew the other person was being recorded.

    I think the CAB worker has been placed in an unfortunate position and there's something that doesn't sit right with this.
    There is something delicious about writing the first words of a story. You never quite know where they'll take you - Beatrix Potter
    • epitome
    • By epitome 10th Oct 17, 9:33 PM
    • 2,896 Posts
    • 1,785 Thanks
    epitome
    Ok...

    I'm wondering how you managed to get an incoming call from the DWP at the same time you were in the CAB office?

    I think people here are concerned about "CAB guidelines" with phone recordings.

    I'm not bothered at all about the recording, it was for personal use and will be deleted by the OP.

    Back on topic...OP,
    You are right, it is a difficult job for her to do, and she obviously is a bit stressed in her job, but I got enough info from that. It is a good job you recorded it, so you could type it out here.

    She said:
    ESA 18/06/2016 - 11/06/2017 Closed because you failed the medical (No LCW) You MR'd and then Appealed.
    "You missed 2 appeals, but then...oh yeah it was put back on" (my words)
    You also made a New Claim on a worsened condition
    ESA from12/06/17 onwards, You failed the medical and you appealed and won the appeal, you will be awarded WRAG from 11/09/17. ( 3 or 4 weeks back pay)

    Now combine what she said with what you said in your first post..
    You said:
    "I claimed from Nov '16, failed, missed 2 appeals then allowed to have a 3rd appeal(hearing) in May '17, lost the appeal, immediately made a new claim, failed assessment, appealed and won appeal.


    Conclusion:
    There is a difference on your original start date from June 2016 to November 2016.... This is irrelevant as it changes nothing.

    There is a difference for your end date of the first claim you said lost the appeal in May 2017, she said to the 11/06/2017....
    When an appeal is lost the ESA claim should be closed from the day after the appeal hearing, so your claim should have been closed from xx May 2017. But they will continue to pay you until they close your claim so I believe your payments continued to 11/06/17 which is strange as that is a Sunday.

    1. Either she was reading the screen wrong and your claim did close in xx May 2017 creating an overpayment to 11/06/17 or
    2. The DWP made an error and actually did close your ESA on the 11/06/17

    Then you made claim 2 to ESA from 12/06/17...they paid you until you failed 18/09/2017. You then claimed JSA (because you would not be entitled to ESA payment on appeal). You appealed and won the appeal.

    I assume that JSA is now closed, it must be as she said you will be paid tomorow.

    The 11/09/17 is the 14th week from the 12/06/17 so that confirms, your claim start date as 12/06/17.


    If there is a gap in your claims between xx May 2017 - 12/06/17 which is marked as overpayment, there is nothing you can do about it now. You could have claimed the new claim backdated to the day after tribunal, but as you didn't.... it is too late now.

    If there is no gap between your claims
    1st ends 11/06/17
    2nd starts 12/06/17
    Then there is nothing to worry about as there is no gap in claims or payments.

    However, I believe, as your 2nd claim was from 12/06/17 it is not going to qualify for "paid WRAG component".... so you will not be getting any £29.05 per week arrears or otherwise. She was wrong in that respect.

    I think that solves virtually everything. You can if you like, ask what date the first claim is showing as ending.... is it May or 11/06/17? There is nothing you can do about it now..

    You can wait for the letter, or when you have recieved money...tomorrow...or when ever you receive it... you could phone ESA and ask what your award rate is... is it £73.10 or £102.15 ? If you are being paid tomorrow, she should have been able to see your award, but maybe she didn't understand what she was looking at.
    Last edited by epitome; 10-10-2017 at 10:03 PM.
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 10th Oct 17, 10:41 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    Hi Epitome .
    wow thankyou !as for the recording ive given up trying to explain.All i know is its fine .The matter was discussed with my worker plus i apologised if they felt they had been put in a difficult position and they were completely ok with it as it was on my OWN phone and they know it is purely fir my own clarification.I had recieved a call back from the dwp and yes i was with my worker at the time .I have always been totally upfront with my worker about the fact that i record all my calls with the dwp.So as far as i am concerned that issue is irrelevent.My worker did nothing wrong and neither did i.
    yes i think you a right the claim would have been closed on 11/06/17 .It definitely wasnt May as the final tribunal i managed to get to was in june.
    i remember that the claim was not closed for some time atleast a couple of weeks as i had to wait for it to close to sign on jsa .in that time period i was diagnosed with a new problem and signed off with that and a worsening of my original condition.sick note was faxed over amd i was put back on ESA immediatley.I didnt even make a new claim BEFORE i was put back on it.I went into the JC to sign on and was told the JSA claim wasnt even live because i had been automaticaly put back onto ESA based on my fit note.
    i remember at the time my representative was quite surprised by this.
    As for the rest of it all.My brilliant CAB worker drafted a letter for me this morning asking for all dates of all medicals,tribunals,MRs closed claims and opened claims etc.
    to be delt with within a reasonable period of time.
    im sick of it all and think its incredably wrong that after a year and a half of fighting i will now lose that 29 a week.I feel the tribunal service new i would be forced to make another new claim.And they had ample evidence of my long and complex med history and conditions .
    I guess i feel the tribunal and wca were totally wrong in their asessmemts to begin with.
    If i hadnt been in such a devestaing place in my personal life i would have been able to think more clearly and fight my corner with more strength.I couldnt even ask for help at that point i was just scraping through the days.
    I dont know where i will go from here ,but i do know it is impossible to live on that income.
    thankyou very very much for your kindness and the time youve taken in looking into all of this for me Epitome.
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 10th Oct 17, 11:13 PM
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    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    Looking through my bank statement i can see that i was recieving ESA still throughout May and the last fortnightly Esa payment was 7th june.
    i then recieved a forward paymemt from JSA for 41 .78 on the 14th june
    and on 21 June i was back on Fortnightly ESA again.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 10th Oct 17, 11:48 PM
    • 1,031 Posts
    • 1,107 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Actually I wish you would try and explain and answer the questions I asked

    I completely appreciate that you are having a very difficult time and I think that epitome is giving you great advice and support

    My concern is that this thread would appear to be suggesting that a CAB worker was fine with having a conversation on the phone (doesn’t matter whose it is) with a DWP official without that DWP official knowing that they were being recorded.

    For clarity - and for others reading this thread - that is not something my CAB office would countenance.
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 10th Oct 17, 11:50 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    Looking through my bank statement i can see that i was recieving ESA still throughout May and sick note stating worsening condition was faxed on the 6th june to ESA (the day of the third tribunal i managed to attend)the last fortnightly Esa payment was 7th june.
    i then was told to sign on JSA by a man at ESA who also stated the tribunal were wrong not to tske my new evidence into account and as long as i could prove i was worse and the new condition then i would be put straight back on ESA .So i gave JSA and ESA another copy of my sick note ,and signed the paperwork and then recieved a "forward" payment from JSA for 41 .78 on the 14th june
    .around the 19th/20th june i went to my alloted apointment at the job centre to sign on wjere i was told much to my confusion as no one had informed me,that i didnt even have a JSA claim, because i was actually on ESA .so you see i never made a new claim for ESA at that point because as far as i was concerned i was on JSA as i had signed the paperwork and been given a job coach etc.
    I then had an ESA payments from the 21st june onwards untill i failed the medical in september.
    Last edited by fumin37; 10-10-2017 at 11:54 PM.
    • fumin37
    • By fumin37 10th Oct 17, 11:58 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    fumin37
    Neil cr with the greatest of respect i do not owe you,or anyone else reading an explaination.
    I am concerned with trying to get to the bottom of my ESA issues so i wont be answering any more questions on that particular issue .
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 11th Oct 17, 12:05 AM
    • 1,031 Posts
    • 1,107 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Neil cr with the greatest of respect i do not owe you,or anyone else reading an explaination.
    I am concerned with trying to get to the bottom of my ESA issues so i wont be answering any more questions on that particular issue .
    Originally posted by fumin37
    Fine

    I understand that but you also need to realise just what you are suggesting re CAB and how they interact with other organisations like DWP

    Iíll take it from your reluctance to clarify that the CAB worker was not aware that you had set up the record function on your phone and was acting in good faith. I hope you are clearer with them in future.
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