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  • FIRST POST
    • hygge123
    • By hygge123 7th Oct 17, 3:24 PM
    • 5Posts
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    hygge123
    Are we being unreasonable? Inheritance and houses
    • #1
    • 7th Oct 17, 3:24 PM
    Are we being unreasonable? Inheritance and houses 7th Oct 17 at 3:24 PM
    Update to this posting:

    As I have said previously (see below) my sister and I are joint executors of our father's will, with the proviso that our brother is kept fully informed at all times. Relationships have broken down between the sister, and myself and my brother, and yet we were all 3 due to meet with our joint solicitor and discuss arrangements for paying the IHT and sign the probate forms on Monday. She has now said she won't be attending, but will arrange to sign the forms elsewhere. I understand she is legally entitled to do this, but my question is, how am supposed to work with her if she is behaving like this? I've suggested mediation but she has pretty much refused it. There are big decisions to be made regarding the amount of tax to pay upfront, and whether to sell the house or not. (I posted a couple of weeks earlier about this, asking if was reasonable to expect us to wait 18 months before taking our share of the house so her daughter could finish her GCSEs and they could take over the house). Any suggestions of how to proceed?
    I'm one of 3 siblings, and our dad passed away in April. My sister and I are joint executors. The will is such that one property is left to our brother, with the remaining house and assets to be divided 3 ways. The reason for this is that 2 of us have had help buying property, whilst my brother hasn't. The remaining house is worth about 975k

    A few weeks after the death, my sister unexpectedly said she and her partner would like to take over the family home. They have now come up with the following proposal: they would sell one of their houses (they currently live half a mile apart, in separate houses). From the profits of the sale, they would pay off the remains of the inheritance tax and give me and my brother about 35k each. We would all then wait for my sister's child to finish their GCSEs in May 2019 and the other house would then be sold, and the balance given over to me and my brother.

    We are not happy about having to wait so long, and would like the house to be put on the open market asap so we can move on with our lives too. We also have concerns about the price they propose to pay us with as the value of the house could increase over a nearly 2 year wait. And lastly we don't feel comfortable taking money from her partner as we barely know him. A lot can happen in two years, and he could ask for the money back.
    Are we being unreasonable? It is almost impossible to talk to my sister, due to high emotions.
    Any suggestions of where to go from here? Probate has not yet been granted, but we were due to sign the forms next week.
    Last edited by hygge123; 22-10-2017 at 3:55 PM. Reason: Update to situation
Page 1
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 7th Oct 17, 3:36 PM
    • 4,058 Posts
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    Keep pedalling
    • #2
    • 7th Oct 17, 3:36 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Oct 17, 3:36 PM
    No you are not being unreasonable, she has no right to delay your inheritance. Unfortunately as she is a joint executor this could get very messy.

    The price she should have to pay you would be the market value at the date of sale not today's prices.
    • Margot123
    • By Margot123 7th Oct 17, 4:25 PM
    • 286 Posts
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    Margot123
    • #3
    • 7th Oct 17, 4:25 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Oct 17, 4:25 PM
    I am reading this as 'she wants us to subsidise her property investment and hang around for her child to leave school'.
    So, no, you are not being unreasonable. The inheritance is yours, claim it now. Otherwise it will become a very long-winded argument that will also split your family.
    • troubleinparadise
    • By troubleinparadise 7th Oct 17, 5:06 PM
    • 984 Posts
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    troubleinparadise
    • #4
    • 7th Oct 17, 5:06 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Oct 17, 5:06 PM
    It seems to not have occurred to your sister that possibly you might need your share of the house sale proceeds as soon as possible, and not have to wait 18 months or more for her selfish scheme to be achieved?

    I suspect if the tables were turned that she would not agree if you were to make this proposal.

    Donít let her bully you into this, unless you can really wait to sort everything out. There are also many costs associated with maintaining a second property (empty?) for an indefinite period - will she be happy to pay those as she is asking for the delay?

    However, I suspect this is a lovely fantasy scenario which she hasnít really thought through properly, and needs to be shown is unreasonable - be strong! It might cause family conflict, but she is the one who is causing it.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 7th Oct 17, 5:10 PM
    • 3,362 Posts
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    Yorkshireman99
    • #5
    • 7th Oct 17, 5:10 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Oct 17, 5:10 PM
    I'm one of 3 siblings, and our dad passed away in April. My sister and I are joint executors. The will is such that one property is left to our brother, with the remaining house and assets to be divided 3 ways. The reason for this is that 2 of us have had help buying property, whilst my brother hasn't. The remaining house is worth about 975k

    A few weeks after the death, my sister unexpectedly said she and her partner would like to take over the family home. They have now come up with the following proposal: they would sell one of their houses (they currently live half a mile apart, in separate houses). From the profits of the sale, they would pay off the remains of the inheritance tax and give me and my brother about 35k each. We would all then wait for my sister's child to finish their GCSEs in May 2019 and the other house would then be sold, and the balance given over to me and my brother.
    We are not happy about having to wait so long, and would like the house to be put on the open market asap so we can move on with our lives too. We also have concerns about the price they propose to pay us with as the value of the house could increase over a nearly 2 year wait. And lastly we don't feel comfortable taking money from her partner as we barely know him. A lot can happen in two years, and he could ask for the money back.
    Are we being unreasonable? It is almost impossible to talk to my sister, due to high emotions.
    Any suggestions of where to go from here? Probate has not yet been granted, but we were due to sign the forms next week.
    Originally posted by hygge123
    No, no and no again. The estate needs to be sorted as per the will. The property can be put up for sale and if anyone wants it they can buy it. Executors are forbidden from self dealing which this effectively is. Your sister needs to be told she has to act in the best interest of the estate and not her own interets. Do NOT allow her to bully you.
    Last edited by Yorkshireman99; 07-10-2017 at 6:50 PM.
    • CRANKY40
    • By CRANKY40 8th Oct 17, 10:45 PM
    • 2,646 Posts
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    CRANKY40
    • #6
    • 8th Oct 17, 10:45 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Oct 17, 10:45 PM
    It can also take a while for a house to sell. If it's still available when your sister has the funds then she can pay the going price for it then....
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 9th Oct 17, 8:45 AM
    • 30,712 Posts
    • 18,359 Thanks
    getmore4less
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 17, 8:45 AM
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 17, 8:45 AM
    Tell her due to self dealing rules she will have to step down as executor if she wants to buy the place.
    (not strictly true but worth a go)

    if she wants to buy the house off the estate and keep living in one of the other ones as a main residence then there will be the extra 3% stamp duty.

    they need to come up with 2/3rd of the value do they have that much equity in the two houses, if not and they need a mortgage that can complicate further.

    One thing you MUST not do as assent the house to the three of you once that happens it will get even harder to sort out.

    Best to have them buy off the estate and take 100% responsibility.
    • Margot123
    • By Margot123 9th Oct 17, 9:10 AM
    • 286 Posts
    • 238 Thanks
    Margot123
    • #8
    • 9th Oct 17, 9:10 AM
    • #8
    • 9th Oct 17, 9:10 AM
    Yours is another case of where family ties are being used to coerce. I'm sorry but from my own experience, I can say that once money comes into the equation, those ties get used to bully and blackmail.
    • maximumgardener
    • By maximumgardener 9th Oct 17, 1:26 PM
    • 259 Posts
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    maximumgardener
    • #9
    • 9th Oct 17, 1:26 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Oct 17, 1:26 PM
    follow what it says in the will

    thats the duty of all executors
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 9th Oct 17, 10:02 PM
    • 4,946 Posts
    • 6,171 Thanks
    theoretica
    It seems perfectly reasonable to want to finalise the sale of the inherited house soon. Is there any reason your sister couldn't sell both her properties now and hire a place near the GCSE school?
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • Margot123
    • By Margot123 10th Oct 17, 8:43 AM
    • 286 Posts
    • 238 Thanks
    Margot123
    What your sister (or anyone else) wants to do with their lives is up to them. You are an executor, first and foremost. I wish I had headed this advice when I allowed my previously wonderful Brother to take advantage of my generosity. I am now battling to get my 50% share of an inherited house; it is costly not just in money, and time, but also in stress.
    • ska lover
    • By ska lover 12th Oct 17, 11:39 PM
    • 2,549 Posts
    • 6,217 Thanks
    ska lover
    Yours is another case of where family ties are being used to coerce. I'm sorry but from my own experience, I can say that once money comes into the equation, those ties get used to bully and blackmail.
    Originally posted by Margot123
    Yes. once there is the prospect of a few quid on the table some folk can really change

    I really bore this in mind when organising my own will, it sounds really awful but the pple you think you can trust can change

    I feel nothing but sympathy for pple going through this awful type of situation and knw how stressful it can be
    Blah blah blah.
    • Jenniefour
    • By Jenniefour 22nd Oct 17, 4:45 PM
    • 1,234 Posts
    • 1,268 Thanks
    Jenniefour
    hygge123, am putting your post today here to get this visible as you altered original post (fine to do that but it doesn't get your original thread back on first page).

    Here it is:-

    "My sister and I are joint executors of our father's will, with the proviso that our brother is kept fully informed at all times. Relationships have broken down between the sister, and myself and my brother, and yet we were all 3 due to meet with our joint solicitor and discuss arrangements for paying the IHT and sign the probate forms on Monday. She has now said she won't be attending, but will arrange to sign the forms elsewhere. I understand she is legally entitled to do this, but my question is, how am supposed to work with her if she is behaving like this? I've suggested mediation but she has pretty much refused it. There are big decisions to be made regarding the amount of tax to pay upfront, and whether to sell the house or not. (I posted a couple of weeks earlier about this, asking if was reasonable to expect us to wait 18 months before taking our share of the house so her daughter could finish her GCSEs and they could take over the house). Any suggestions of how to proceed?"

    Hope that's OK.
    • Sarastro
    • By Sarastro 22nd Oct 17, 6:41 PM
    • 323 Posts
    • 243 Thanks
    Sarastro
    She is being unreasonable. And she will carry on being unreasonable for as long as you let her.
    Petition the court to have her removed as an executor - she is not carrying out the terms of the will and is not acting in the best interests of the beneficiaries.
    • Primrose
    • By Primrose 23rd Oct 17, 12:01 PM
    • 7,858 Posts
    • 26,667 Thanks
    Primrose
    Your sister has a conflict of interest as executor and should resign her position. It is also the duty of executors to execute a will as quickly as possible without any unnecessary delays and clearly one executor trying to delay the process for 18 months for her own personal gain is unacceptable.

    This is obviously going to lead to family conflict. You can only try to handle all communications impartially and avoid getting 8nto emoti9nal arguments as much as possible. Just stick to the facts and act professionally, even if yiu sister doesn’t.
    • happyandcontented
    • By happyandcontented 23rd Oct 17, 12:08 PM
    • 852 Posts
    • 1,699 Thanks
    happyandcontented
    This is a potential minefield, what happens if she and her partner split up? Just say No.
    • eddyinfreehold
    • By eddyinfreehold 23rd Oct 17, 12:38 PM
    • 114 Posts
    • 87 Thanks
    eddyinfreehold
    Although I'm afraid this adds to what is already an awkward situation, it is worth pointing out that the estate is unlikely to be wound up any time soon.

    You say you haven't got Probate yet? Has the full value of the estate been valued professionally, all land, property and chattels, and any individual valuables? With these sums of money involved it is vitally important you do this with at least one if not two RICS valuations. Your first hurdle will not be your sister, it will be HMRC. A good solicitor will point this out to you and I would encourage her to listen to your suggestion and attend to hear what is said.

    It might be that the forms for submission are ready and all the calculations are made. In these circumstances I think it is essential the certified will is retained by the solicitor and not any of the executors just in case it 'went missing.' You should all retain copies.

    I would be very surprised if (once the forms are submitted and a sum of IHT paid alongside), HMRC then indicate they will be going through the submission with a fine toothcomb, possibly sending the property details to the Office of Valuation for compliance. Hence the importance of cast iron 24 carat valuation(s) from RICS surveyors.

    I am in this position at the moment as some of you are aware. We were granted Probate 3 months after submitting IHT cheque and forms. Probate was the end of December 2016. We haven't heard from HMRC since although I have found out that the case was sent to Compliance in February 2017.

    Without being too cynical, your sister's daughter may be at University before the Estate is finally wound up going from my experience and the glacial pace of HMRC.

    Edit, addition.

    I would also add that I would be very worried about your sister's marital position. They own two houses and live apart? Is this a CGT scam where they are pretending to be separated? It is all very odd. If you did agree to an arrangement, AND I AM NOT SUGGESTING YOU DO, you would have to insist that any agreement of her suggestion, a Family Agreement as it is known, is drawn up legally and not involving her spouse and paid for by her, certainly not the Estate.
    Last edited by eddyinfreehold; 23-10-2017 at 12:48 PM.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 23rd Oct 17, 12:46 PM
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    Yorkshireman99
    Sorry to be blunt. You have had plenty of advice so why have you not got on with things? As far as I can see unless, and until,YOU take some action nothing will progress.
    • eddyinfreehold
    • By eddyinfreehold 23rd Oct 17, 12:54 PM
    • 114 Posts
    • 87 Thanks
    eddyinfreehold
    I know you say it how it is YM99 but that's very blunt.

    I have every sympathy with the OP. It is a very difficult situation and escalating it isn't going to help. Careful negotiation is needed here, and very good mediating legal advice or it could get very messy and expensive. Finding a way to get the sister to at least listen to some of the pitfalls of her idea, and see some of the elephant traps they could fall into might be a start, for example writing out some worst case scenarios in figures including the added legal costs.
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 23rd Oct 17, 2:08 PM
    • 3,362 Posts
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    Yorkshireman99
    I know you say it how it is YM99 but that's very blunt.

    I have every sympathy with the OP. It is a very difficult situation and escalating it isn't going to help. Careful negotiation is needed here, and very good mediating legal advice or it could get very messy and expensive. Finding a way to get the sister to at least listen to some of the pitfalls of her idea, and see some of the elephant traps they could fall into might be a start, for example writing out some worst case scenarios in figures including the added legal costs.
    Originally posted by eddyinfreehold
    I hear what you say! However, it is evident that the culprits, for want of a better term, either don’t have a clue or are determined not to carry out their responsibilities. In either my experience suggests that in such situations the softly, softly, approach just does not work. The only thing people like that understand is when they are faced with strong measures and those that will hurt their wallets.
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