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  • FIRST POST
    • batg
    • By batg 7th Oct 17, 12:05 PM
    • 32Posts
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    batg
    Apprentice son being made redundant
    • #1
    • 7th Oct 17, 12:05 PM
    Apprentice son being made redundant 7th Oct 17 at 12:05 PM
    My son, age 20 is approx 4/5 months into an apprenticeship.

    He has had no contact what so ever with the training company because of a change of person there. He has never had day release/training etc and telling him to find out the contact details for training/college is like talking to a brick wall. He wouldn't even ask them when their holiday year ran from ( he's quite shy and doesn't like to rock the boat)

    Comes in on Thursday to say he's been told he's being laid off as they can't afford him because a guy who bought a load of stuff off his employer has gone bust owing him money. He was told he had 6 days holiday accrued so to not to come in on Friday or next week.
    He gets about £140 a week for 8.30-5 Mon to Friday

    He seems to think the employer will be giving him £1400 although I have no idea how he (son) knows/has arrived at the figure?

    Is it true apprentices can't be made redundant?
Page 1
    • Diamandis
    • By Diamandis 7th Oct 17, 12:23 PM
    • 32 Posts
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    Diamandis
    • #2
    • 7th Oct 17, 12:23 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Oct 17, 12:23 PM
    If they've entered in to a contract to train this person then they could be in breach of contract for not doing so. The money argument here wouldn't hold up. I'd really recommend seeking some legal advice.
    • discat11
    • By discat11 7th Oct 17, 12:25 PM
    • 269 Posts
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    discat11
    • #3
    • 7th Oct 17, 12:25 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Oct 17, 12:25 PM
    Anyone can be made redundant, those who were last in with the least experience probably are the first out in most companies, although there is a body of legal opinion that claims that making an apprentice redundant is a breach of contract (simplybusiness.co.uk).

    This states quite specifically an employer can't use the reason of 'affordability' in redundancy.

    I think he needs to contact ACAS pronto.
    • xapprenticex
    • By xapprenticex 7th Oct 17, 1:28 PM
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    xapprenticex
    • #4
    • 7th Oct 17, 1:28 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Oct 17, 1:28 PM
    Its also worth considering, if he does go that route, will he be able to manage staying at the company when he is somewhat unwanted?

    Some can, some cant.
    • batg
    • By batg 7th Oct 17, 1:37 PM
    • 32 Posts
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    batg
    • #5
    • 7th Oct 17, 1:37 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Oct 17, 1:37 PM
    the guy says he has to let him go because he has taken a big hit on an unpaying client.

    Son says had call from him yesterday saying guy said he hadn't been paying NMW ( he had at apprenticeship rate) since he started so owes him about £1500,and son is saying he thinks he might have changed the contract to have him as an employee instead of apprenticeship.

    He is so naive it's unreal.
    I think it's a sweetner to get rid of him and keep him quiet

    Acas closed until Monday
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 7th Oct 17, 1:39 PM
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    Savvy_Sue
    • #6
    • 7th Oct 17, 1:39 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Oct 17, 1:39 PM
    And assuming he didn't join a union this time, please encourage him to do so next time ...
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 1 shawl, 2 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure, 1 sock ...
    Current projects: 1 shawl, t'other sock (just about to turn the heel!)
    • batg
    • By batg 7th Oct 17, 1:46 PM
    • 32 Posts
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    batg
    • #7
    • 7th Oct 17, 1:46 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Oct 17, 1:46 PM
    Don't suppose the fact that the company has the owner, his wife who does admin and one other worker makes a difference?
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 7th Oct 17, 1:49 PM
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    sangie595
    • #8
    • 7th Oct 17, 1:49 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Oct 17, 1:49 PM
    I suspect that this may be complicated. Assuming this really is an apprenticeship, he has some responsibilities too, and if he's never attended college or had any contact with his training mentor/ supervisor, then technically he may be considered in breach of his contract too. Being shy isn't an explanation for that that would be accepted - he's out in the real world and needs to take responsibility. It isn't a one way street where the employer does everything for you. And I don't say that to be harsh, but simply as a statement of fact - mum and/or dad can't do everything!

    And it isn't true that an apprentice can't be made redundant - it's hard, yes, but clearly employers do hit financial barriers or go bust etc., and the law cannot require them to risk their business simply to keep a person in training whilst skilled and experienced staff that actually make the business work go first! That would be patently ridiculous!

    Given the circumstances, I'd be tempted to agree with xapprenticex. It's all very well saying he might have rights to not be made redundant, but he's unable to stand up for those rights himself even if they apply; and all that leaves him doing is stuck in an employment where he is disliked because his employer can't afford him, and he may even be forcing someone else out of work which colleagues and employer will be unhappy about.

    I'd also just comment too- the reason you have been given ( or that he had been given) may not be true. It may be a gentle let down for someone who isn't working out? Which happens, and may be neither a reflection on your son or the employer.

    I'd suggest that he may be better off, with so little under his belt, cutting his losses, making sure he gets properly paid off, and looking for another apprenticeship that is a better fit. If he's so shy, he probably needs a more structured working environment (more common with larger employers) where they will push him when he doesn't push himself to do things like sort out training etc.

    And, with the greatest of respect, stop parenting him! I know it's hard. But he could have signed up and posted. You could have stood over him and made him! Then he'd have typed what he actually understands instead of us having to manage on what you think he thinks was said! He's going to have to survive in the world of work, and every bit of practice in sorting out his own issues is valuable. As is learning that stuff goes wrong so he should join a union - it's their job to help him stand up for himself, and they'll do it better than you

    ________
    Edit - just seen the new information. On this basis, take the money, cut his losses and get a better training environment in a bigger employer. And then join a union!
    Last edited by sangie595; 07-10-2017 at 1:53 PM.
    • Andy L
    • By Andy L 7th Oct 17, 1:51 PM
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    Andy L
    • #9
    • 7th Oct 17, 1:51 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Oct 17, 1:51 PM
    And assuming he didn't join a union this time, please encourage him to do so next time ...
    Originally posted by Savvy_Sue
    Traditionally apprentices couldn't join the Union/ engage in industrial action
    I don't know if that's still true
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 7th Oct 17, 1:55 PM
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    sangie595
    Don't suppose the fact that the company has the owner, his wife who does admin and one other worker makes a difference?
    Originally posted by batg
    Yes, a big one - even if he's an apprentice, which it sounds like he isn't, the argument that he's the only "disposable" cost without jeopardizing the company is stronger! If paying him would risk the company then an apprentice contract could be terminated.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 7th Oct 17, 1:56 PM
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    sangie595
    Traditionally apprentices couldn't join the Union/ engage in industrial action
    I don't know if that's still true
    Originally posted by Andy L
    According to what tradition????

    I have been in a union since 1976, and I have never known any union to refuse membership to apprentices!
    • footyguy
    • By footyguy 7th Oct 17, 2:38 PM
    • 3,690 Posts
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    footyguy
    According to what tradition????

    I have been in a union since 1976, and I have never known any union to refuse membership to apprentices!
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Traditionally, old fashioned apprentices were indeed forbidden by the terms of their indentures from joining Trade Unions, but that didn't always pevent them from taking industrial action as this article explains.

    https://www.socialist.net/the-1944-apprentices-strike-a-reflection-by-bill-landles.htm

    Without getting into the politics of what an apprentice is today, it certainly seems that there is no restriction on apprentices joining a Trade Union today
    https://www.unionlearn.org.uk/joining-trade-union
    http://www.unitetheunion.org/growing-our-union/unite-for-apprenticeships/
    http://www.anapprenticeship.co.uk/joining-trade-union.html

    In days gone by, an apprentice was considered a trainee(student) on an approved practical based training scheme provided by a company together with some appropriate college based study.

    Nowadays they are considered to be people on work-based programmes that include some practical training and an element of study

    It wasn't really until the Apprenticeship, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009, that apprentices were started to be seen more as employees, and it was the Apprenticeships (Form of Apprenticeship Agreement) Regulations 2012 that formally gave apprentices enployee status and rights thereunde. (including, for example, the right to a contract of employment or similar) reflecting their more modern role.
    Last edited by footyguy; 07-10-2017 at 2:47 PM.
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 7th Oct 17, 2:59 PM
    • 6,269 Posts
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    ohreally
    Wallace V C A roofing services and Whitely V Martin Electrical, it was not possible to terminate the apprentice on grounds of redundancy.

    An apprentice wrongfully dismissed can claim a sum representing loss of future prospects as a qualified person, Dunk V George Walker & son ltd.

    An apprentice is employed for the duration of the apprenticeship (unless serious misconduct).

    You should seek assistance with this.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 7th Oct 17, 4:31 PM
    • 3,843 Posts
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    sangie595
    Traditionally, old fashioned apprentices were indeed forbidden by the terms of their indentures from joining Trade Unions, but that didn't always pevent them from taking industrial action as this article explains.

    https://www.socialist.net/the-1944-apprentices-strike-a-reflection-by-bill-landles.htm

    Without getting into the politics of what an apprentice is today, it certainly seems that there is no restriction on apprentices joining a Trade Union today
    https://www.unionlearn.org.uk/joining-trade-union
    http://www.unitetheunion.org/growing-our-union/unite-for-apprenticeships/
    http://www.anapprenticeship.co.uk/joining-trade-union.html

    In days gone by, an apprentice was considered a trainee(student) on an approved practical based training scheme provided by a company together with some appropriate college based study.

    Nowadays they are considered to be people on work-based programmes that include some practical training and an element of study

    It wasn't really until the Apprenticeship, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009, that apprentices were started to be seen more as employees, and it was the Apprenticeships (Form of Apprenticeship Agreement) Regulations 2012 that formally gave apprentices enployee status and rights thereunde. (including, for example, the right to a contract of employment or similar) reflecting their more modern role.
    Originally posted by footyguy
    That is not "tradition" - that is ancient history! I am actually aware of the history, and I repeat - I have never known any union to turn apprentices away since I have been in the union movement in the mid-70's. My own union, and the one I work for, have certainly taken apprentices since that time and longer. I didn't bother withy the history lesson because it wasn't relevant to the comment posted that suggested that apprentices couldn't join a union.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 7th Oct 17, 5:01 PM
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    sangie595
    Wallace V C A roofing services and Whitely V Martin Electrical, it was not possible to terminate the apprentice on grounds of redundancy.

    An apprentice wrongfully dismissed can claim a sum representing loss of future prospects as a qualified person, Dunk V George Walker & son ltd.

    An apprentice is employed for the duration of the apprenticeship (unless serious misconduct).

    You should seek assistance with this.
    Originally posted by ohreally
    I am sorry but it IS possible to terminate an apprenticeship due to redundancy or other reasons. The specific case law quoted falls into the trap I have often pointed out - case law only applies when the case is sufficiently the same as the circumstances of the new situation - and only if applied by a court. In other words, unless you take it to a tribunal and the tribunal agree that the case law is sufficiently applicable. I do agree that legal advice on the specifics would be necessary to determine whether a possible case exists because the employer has more obligations on them to make an apprentice redundant: those may include finding another provider for the apprentice. If, indeed, the OP's son is an apprentice, which it appears they may not be.

    But none of that would, in any case, address the fact that the son could equally be deemed to be in breach of contract (if they are an apprentice) for not have undertaken the approved elements of training. Nor the fact that the easiest thing for the employer to do is to agree and keep them on - until they leave of their own accord because they are in a very vulnerable position with a small employer; or get dismissed for something else, which the employer can do. Or even, that the employer simply closes and phoenixes the company - easy to do with only a couple of workers.

    At the moment it appears that the employer is offering £1500 - money that will easily disappear in legal costs with no future guarantee that there will be a tribunal win or any employer to pay up at all. There is little lost because the lad has only worked there for a few months, and tbh it sounds like the apprenticeship could easily have been worthless anyway. I'd still suggest that he take the money and run... into a better apprenticeship.

    BTW - I am laying bets that the employer has already taken legal advice and that is why there is an offer on the table. It, and the employer, might not be there the week after if he decides to appeal. Which, of course, he must do if he is to make a claim to a tribunal. He will have to appeal the dismissal and say why he is appealing. Don't expect the employer to exist the day after he does. But my impression is that the employer is following (what seems to be good) advice, denying the apprenticeship and putting the wage issue down to an error which he is correcting. Without any evidence of the apprenticeship being in place - he has had no contact with a training provider, hasn't asked for it, and hasn't attended any training elements - that could be a rather convincing strategy.
    • batg
    • By batg 7th Oct 17, 7:25 PM
    • 32 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    batg
    Thanks Sangie, I think he's best taking the money and cutting his losses...like you say the business could go under (or the offer could disappear) and there would be no money at all for him.

    At least that money will be a cushion until he gets something else.
    • Elliesmum
    • By Elliesmum 7th Oct 17, 7:35 PM
    • 1,434 Posts
    • 1,723 Thanks
    Elliesmum
    My son, age 20 is approx 4/5 months into an apprenticeship.

    He has had no contact what so ever with the training company because of a change of person there. He has never had day release/training etc and telling him to find out the contact details for training/college is like talking to a brick wall. He wouldn't even ask them when their holiday year ran from ( he's quite shy and doesn't like to rock the boat)

    Comes in on Thursday to say he's been told he's being laid off as they can't afford him because a guy who bought a load of stuff off his employer has gone bust owing him money. He was told he had 6 days holiday accrued so to not to come in on Friday or next week.
    He gets about £140 a week for 8.30-5 Mon to Friday

    He seems to think the employer will be giving him £1400 although I have no idea how he (son) knows/has arrived at the figure?

    Is it true apprentices can't be made redundant?
    Originally posted by batg
    Hi

    I work with apprentices for an apprentice training provider and advise the following...

    Yes - regrettably he can be made redundant.

    He should contact his current training provider and state that he is getting made redundant and they should help him into another job/placement/apprenticeship.

    His apprenticeship can be put on hold, as we have break in learning procedures we can follow, to allow for learners to find another apprenticeship for these sorts of circumstances.

    Another question for me is when exactly did he start? Was is before the 30th April or after? This is because we had a huge change in funding rules as the apprenticeship levy kicked in. This has greatly changed the way that apprenticeships are now funded.

    As far as I am aware, if he was on the old funding, he is not able to transfer to another employer or training provider. On the new rules I am not sure.

    If you would like to PM me the name of the training provider I can check if they are still on the Register of Approved Training Providers for apprenticeships for you?

    I am sorry that this has happened to your son. I hope that this can be resolved and leads to a more positive experience for him.

    HTHs EM x
    You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.
    Plato

    NSD challenge for July - 1/10 2nd target 0/13 VSP £235.00
    • batg
    • By batg 7th Oct 17, 7:45 PM
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    batg
    That's the problem, he found the apprenticeship on the official site. Applied and was sent for interview. The trainer thought it was for customer service, employer wanted warehouse worker. Trainer turned up once and said they would transfer him from customer service to warehousing apprenticeship. Never heard from them since.
    I have been on at him for months and months to ring them and see what the heck was going on. The he casually drops in he doesn't even know the name of them so I said ask his boss' wife what contact details she has for them and ring them but he hasn't done so.

    I think it is prob best he takes the money. If nothing else, he will have learned to find out the ins and outs of everything about contracts, holidays etc working instead of sitting in the corner saying nothing!

    eta-------------------start was May/June time
    Last edited by batg; 07-10-2017 at 7:46 PM. Reason: addition
    • Elliesmum
    • By Elliesmum 8th Oct 17, 11:51 PM
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    Elliesmum
    I think taking the money is a good idea and yes lessons learnt!

    EM x
    You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.
    Plato

    NSD challenge for July - 1/10 2nd target 0/13 VSP £235.00
    • batg
    • By batg 16th Oct 17, 11:42 AM
    • 32 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    batg
    Just a quick update

    He got £1,400 (£100 deduction for NI) on Friday
    so he now feels like Rockerfeller!
    (not your average 20 year old either, he's now got £3k in bank from wages and hates spending)
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