Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Northerner_lad
    • By Northerner_lad 7th Oct 17, 11:46 AM
    • 9Posts
    • 3Thanks
    Northerner_lad
    Help - Claim form
    • #1
    • 7th Oct 17, 11:46 AM
    Help - Claim form 7th Oct 17 at 11:46 AM
    Hello.

    I am wondering if anyone could help.

    Please do not get angry as you probably receive lots of questions, which may have already been answered.

    I have received a claim form from the county court dated 03 Oct 2017 in respect of an overstay at a car park in July 2015. The claimants are Civil Enforcement Limited.

    I ignored previous correspondence and the last correspondence I received was dated 27 April 2016 from ZZPS limited saying I now owed £200.00. Again, I ignored that letter and now received a claim form dated 03 Oct 2017.

    I have done a quick search on the internet and came across this forum and some of the posts. I registred last night. It seems people here have experience in this field. In normal circumstances, I would have challenged and appealed this myself but I have sustained a head and leg injury and just awaiting surgery. I am therefore wondering if anyone would be kind enough to assist.

    If anyone could help, please let me know. If not, thanks for reading anyway. Many thanks.
    Last edited by Northerner_lad; 16-10-2017 at 8:13 PM. Reason: ive taken out some personal details
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 7th Oct 17, 12:27 PM
    • 33,482 Posts
    • 17,361 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #2
    • 7th Oct 17, 12:27 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Oct 17, 12:27 PM
    Everyone gets free help here.

    Can't a friend assist you in dealing with this?

    All advice on what to do and when is in the Newbies faq thread near the top of the forum
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Oct 17, 12:44 PM
    • 1,136 Posts
    • 1,165 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #3
    • 8th Oct 17, 12:44 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Oct 17, 12:44 PM
    First step acknowledge the claim

    Then you submit the standard cel defence from 2017 - dozens here - and go through the steps as outlined in the newbies thread. They’ll discont8nue after you submit your ws.
    • Northerner_lad
    • By Northerner_lad 9th Oct 17, 8:51 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Northerner_lad
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 17, 8:51 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Oct 17, 8:51 PM
    Ta for replying. I will try and do as much as I can and will post here for advice. Thanks once again.
    • Northerner_lad
    • By Northerner_lad 10th Oct 17, 11:13 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Northerner_lad
    • #5
    • 10th Oct 17, 11:13 AM
    • #5
    • 10th Oct 17, 11:13 AM
    Hello, is this defence statement ok?

    I deny I am liable for the sum of this claim for the following reasons:

    The Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol in failing to provide me with a Letter Before Claim. The Claimant has failed to provide me with a copy of the signs on display, a copy of any contract(the wording of which is surely central to any claim) nor any photographic evidence of the alleged breach of contract.

    The above documents, central to the claim, should have been produced , pursuant to paragraph 6 of the Practice Direction – Pre Action Conduct. The lack of these documents and of a Letter Before Claim is a deliberate attempt to thwart any attempt by myself to defend the claim, and is a failure to comply with pre-action obligations denying me the opportunity to “take Stock”, pursuant to paragraph 12 of the Practice Direction. Furthermore , the failure to provide a Letter Before Claim has denied me the option of a discourse with the Claimant before incurring additional court costs.

    The Claimant has added unreasonable and unexplained additional charges to the original parking charge. The Claim Form is sparse in detail and contains very little information. It fails to specify what the claim is about, what the alleged contract was and how the charges arose. It has not been signed by a legal person but by Civil Enforcement Ltd.

    Or shall I use the standard defence statements on here? Also, is it important to mention that Beavis case?
    Last edited by Northerner_lad; 10-10-2017 at 11:14 AM. Reason: More stuff added
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th Oct 17, 2:07 PM
    • 4,731 Posts
    • 3,066 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #6
    • 10th Oct 17, 2:07 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Oct 17, 2:07 PM
    Go back and re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES thread.

    In there you will see links to two defences written specifically for CEL.

    Choose the more appropriate one and adjust it as necessary to fit your particular circumstances.
    .
    • Northerner_lad
    • By Northerner_lad 16th Oct 17, 8:11 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Northerner_lad
    • #7
    • 16th Oct 17, 8:11 PM
    • #7
    • 16th Oct 17, 8:11 PM
    Hello,

    Please would you check this defence CEL statement. Please give any feedback before it's finalised. Much appreciated and thank you so much.
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________

    In the County Court Business Centre
    Between:
    Civil Enforcement Limited
    V
    XXXXXX


    Claim Number: XXXXX

    I, XXXXX, deny I am liable to the Claimant for the entirety of the claim for each of the following reasons:

    1. The Claim Form issued on XXX by Civil Enforcement Limited was not correctly filed under The Practice Direction as it was not signed by a legal person but signed by “Civil Enforcement Limited”.

    2. This Claimant has not complied with pre-court protocol (as outlined in the new Pre Action Protocol for Debt Claims, 1 October 2017). As an example as to why this prevents a full defence being filed at this time, a parking charge can be for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge. All these are treated differently in law and require a different defence. The wording of any contract will naturally be a key element in this matter, and a copy of the alleged contract has never been provided to the Defendant.

    (a) There was no compliant ‘Letter before County Court Claim’, under the Practice Direction.


    (b) This is a speculative serial litigant, issuing a large number of identical 'draft particulars'. The badly mail-merged documents contain very little information.

    (c) The Schedule of information is sparse of detailed information.

    (d) The Claim Form Particulars were extremely sparse and divulged no cause of action nor sufficient detail. The Defendant has no idea what the claim is about - why the charge arose, what the alleged contract was; nothing that could be considered a fair exchange of information. The Claim Form Particulars did not contain any evidence of contravention or photographs.
    These documents, and the ‘Letter before County Court Claim’ should have been produced, pursuant to paragraph 6 of the Practice Direction – Pre Action Conduct. This constitutes a deliberate attempt to thwart any efforts to defend the claim or to “take stock”, pursuant to paragraph 12 of the Practice Direction. Again, this totally contradicts the guidance outlined in the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (2017), the aims of which are:


    (1) early engagement and communication between the parties, including early exchange of sufficient information about the matter to help clarify whether there are any issues in dispute
    (2) enable the parties to resolve the matter without the need to start court proceedings, including agreeing a reasonable repayment plan or considering using an Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) procedure
    (3) encourage the parties to act in a reasonable and proportionate manner in all dealings with one another (for example, avoiding running up costs which do not bear a reasonable relationship to the sums in issue) and
    (4) support the efficient management of proceedings that cannot be avoided.’



    e) The
    Defence therefore asks the Court to strike out the claim as disclosing no cause of action and having no reasonable prospect of success as currently drafted.

    f) Alternatively, the Defendant asks that the Claimant is required to file Particulars which comply with Practice Directions and include at least the following information;

    i. Whether the matter is being brought for trespass, breach of contract or a contractual charge, and an explanation as to the exact nature of the charge

    ii. A copy of any contract it is alleged was in place (e.g. copies of signage)

    iii. How any contract was concluded (if by performance, then copies of signage maps in place at the time)

    iv. Whether keeper liability is being claimed, and if so copies of any Notice to Driver / Notice to Keeper

    v. Whether the Claimant is acting as Agent or Principal, together with a list of documents they will rely on in this matter

    vi. If charges over and above the initial charge are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    vii. If Interest charges are being claimed, the basis on which this is being claimed

    g) Once these Particulars have been filed, the Defendant asks for reasonable time to file another
    defence.

    3. The Claimant failed to meet the Notice to Keeper obligations of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Absent such a notice served within 14 days of the parking event and with fully compliant statutory wording, this Claimant is unable to hold me liable under the strict ‘keeper liability’ provisions.

    Schedule 4 also states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not, and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when neither the signs, nor the NTK, nor the permit information mentioned a possible £323.76 for outstanding debt and damages.

    4. The Claimant has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. It is believed that the employee who drew up the paperwork is remunerated and the particulars of claim are templates, so it is simply not credible that £50 'legal representative’s (or even admin) costs' were incurred

    5. This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. None of this applies in this material case.

    6. In the absence of any proof of adequate signage that contractually bound the Defendant then there can have been no contract and the Claimant has no case.


    a) The Claimant is put to strict proof that at the time of the alleged event they had both advertisement consent and the permission from the site owner to display the signs.


    b) In the absence of strict proof I submit that the Claimant was committing an offence by displaying their signs and therefore no contract could have been entered into between the driver and the Claimant.



    c) Inadequate signs incapable of binding the driver - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:


    (i) Sporadic and illegible (charge not prominent nor large lettering) of site/entrance signage - breach of the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice and no contract formed to pay any clearly stated sum.


    (ii) It is believed the signage was not lit and any terms were not transparent or legible; this is an unfair contract, not agreed by the driver and contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 in requiring a huge inflated sum as 'compensation' from by an authorised party using the premises as intended.


    (iii) No promise was made by the driver that could constitute consideration because there was no offer known nor accepted. No consideration flowed from the Claimant.


    (iv) The signs are believed to have no mention of any debt collection additional charge, which cannot form part of any alleged contract.

    d) BPA CoP breaches - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    (i) the signs were not compliant in terms of the font size, lighting or positioning.
    (ii) the sum pursued exceeds £100.
    (iii) there is / was no compliant landowner contract.

    7. No standing - this distinguishes this case from the Beavis case:
    It is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park. As an agent, the Claimant has no legal right to bring such a claim in their name which should be in the name of the landowner.

    8. The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal damages.

    9. The charge is an unenforceable penalty based upon a lack of commercial justification. The Beavis case confirmed that the penalty rule is certainly engaged in any case of a private parking charge and was only disengaged due to the unique circumstances of that case, which do not resemble this claim.



    10. Due to the length of time, the Defendant has little to no recollection of the days in question, which were unremarkable. It would not be reasonable to expect a registered keeper to be able to recall the potential driver(s) of the car some years later. In any case, there is no such obligation in law and this was confirmed in the POPLA Annual Report 2015 by parking expert barrister and Lead Adjudicator, Henry Greenslade, who also clarified the fact that registered keeper can only be held liable under the POFA Schedule 4 and not by presumption or any other legal argument.

    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant in any matter and asks the Court to note that the Claimant has:

    (a) failed to disclose any cause of action in the incorrectly filed Claim Form issued on 03 October 2017

    (b) Sent a template, well-known to be generic cut and paste 'Particulars' of claim relying on irrelevant case law (Beavis) which ignores the fact that this Claimant cannot hold registered keepers liable in law, due to their own choice of non-POFA documentation.

    The vague Particulars of Claim disclose no clear cause of action. The court is invited to strike out the claim of its own volition as having no merit and no reasonable prospects of success.

    I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.

    Signed: XXXXX


    Date:
    Last edited by Northerner_lad; 26-10-2017 at 3:40 PM. Reason: changed font so it reads better
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Oct 17, 10:20 PM
    • 51,672 Posts
    • 65,330 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 16th Oct 17, 10:20 PM
    • #8
    • 16th Oct 17, 10:20 PM
    Sorry to post and run - just a few tweaks needed - e.g. there was no PERMIT in your case:

    Schedule 4 also states that the only sum a keeper can be pursued for (if Schedule 4 is fully complied with, which it was not, and if there was a 'relevant obligation' and relevant contract' fairly and adequately communicated, which there was not) is the sum on the Notice to Keeper. They cannot pluck another sum from thin air and bolt that on as well when it is believed that neither the signs, nor the NTK, nor the permit information mentioned a possible £323.76 for outstanding debt and damages.
    5. This case can be distinguished from ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 (the Beavis case) which was dependent upon an undenied contract, formed by unusually prominent signage forming a clear offer and which turned on unique facts regarding the location and the interests of the landowner. Strict compliance with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) was paramount and Mr Beavis was the driver who saw the signs and entered into a contract to pay £85 after exceeding a licence to park free. As far as I can ascertain, based upon the very vague particulars of claim and complete lack of evidence and photographs, and without having been furnished with the alleged signage 'contract', none of this applies in this material case.
    10. Due to the length of time, the Defendant has little to no recollection of the days in question. , which were unremarkable. It would not be reasonable to expect a registered keeper to be able to recall the potential driver(s) of the car some years later. In any case, there is no such obligation in law and this was confirmed in the POPLA Annual Report 2015 by parking expert barrister and Lead Adjudicator, Henry Greenslade, who also clarified the fact that registered keeper can only be held liable under the POFA Schedule 4 and not by presumption or any other legal argument.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Northerner_lad
    • By Northerner_lad 17th Oct 17, 12:39 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Northerner_lad
    • #9
    • 17th Oct 17, 12:39 PM
    • #9
    • 17th Oct 17, 12:39 PM
    Ta so much Coupon-mad. Will finalise and send it off this week. Anymore feedback which would make it stronger, would be helpful.
    • Northerner_lad
    • By Northerner_lad 26th Oct 17, 3:36 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Northerner_lad
    Hello all,

    I think I've made a mistake....I submitted my defence on 17 Oct before the particulars of claim form being received by CEL (signed by a Ashley Cohen). I did get an acknowledgement from the county court re my defence and their letter dated was 17 Oct. I've not heard nothing since from the court whether CEL want to proceed. Any advice? Ta so much.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 26th Oct 17, 3:44 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
    • 20,992 Thanks
    Redx
    if its already with the CCBC in Northampton you will have to wait for them to decide if it goes to your local court or is thrown out

    if they decide to send it to your local court , you will get the DQ stage and after that CEL willl have a date to pay the court filing fee IF they wish to keep going

    you can phone the CCBC to check where its up to
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Northerner_lad
    • By Northerner_lad 26th Oct 17, 3:52 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Northerner_lad
    Ta so much for the qucik response Redx, I'll give them a buzz tomorrow.

    PS: I don't know how these CEL people sleep at night!
    • Northerner_lad
    • By Northerner_lad 17th Nov 17, 11:10 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Northerner_lad
    Hello, I have now received a Questionnaire (Form N180) to complete. I intend to challenge CEL. Do I scan and send the form via email or shall I post?

    Also, any advice what to include on the following:

    Section C (Do you agree that the small claims track is the appropriate for this case? Yes or No? What option do I go for?

    Also, am I right in thinking I tick 'No' for asking the court's permission to use written evidence of an experrt?

    Thanks all.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 17th Nov 17, 1:04 PM
    • 4,731 Posts
    • 3,066 Thanks
    KeithP
    Read Bargepole's walkthrough linked from post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ thread.
    You are looking for:
    Here's a summary from bargepole of what happens when, what you MUST do in time, re the paperwork & deadlines...
    It tells you exactly how to fill in all the boxes.
    .
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

1,125Posts Today

6,578Users online

Martin's Twitter