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  • FIRST POST
    • Docjames
    • By Docjames 6th Oct 17, 11:43 PM
    • 12Posts
    • 4Thanks
    Docjames
    Alternative to nhs pension?
    • #1
    • 6th Oct 17, 11:43 PM
    Alternative to nhs pension? 6th Oct 17 at 11:43 PM
    Hi,
    I am a doctor in A and E,have a pension in the 2008 scheme
    Been contributing since 2009.People in general praise the NHS pension and would love to have it. But lately we doctors have been chatting about it and have some serious concerns.
    1. Our contributions are just increasing and the benefits remain the same.
    2. The pension age keeps getting pushed back, so we aren't sure when we will be able to enjoy the pension as our jobs are getting more stressful. .due to heavy under staffing etc.
    I wonder if having a SIPP would be of help.
    I wish to contribute around 80,000 to 100000 over the next decade.
    Just wish to know about the platform and funds. .There are so many options.
    How do you decide? Is an IFA needed? Or one just puts in money into funds like the vanguard lifestrategy 60?
    Or a private pension is the way forward?
    Some insight would be welcome. .
    Dr James. .
Page 2
    • stoozie1
    • By stoozie1 7th Oct 17, 11:53 AM
    • 344 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    stoozie1
    I agree with Joe and CRV. However if you feel too bitten by the past to invest, could you consider purchasing NHS additional pension of £6500 annually (this will cost you £58000 if you were able to do it as a lumpsum, or more if you spread it out monthly over several years.)

    You could then use all/part of the £6500 as the amount which will be reduced when you take early retirement from the NHS scheme?
    • atush
    • By atush 7th Oct 17, 12:25 PM
    • 16,302 Posts
    • 9,969 Thanks
    atush
    AS long as you stick to funds over single shares, and go for a global fund over a UK specific Ftse fund, and have cash and other assets you should be fine.

    But really there is no alternative to the NHS pension for you- but there are suppliments sch as Sipps/PPs that you can use to retire early, leaving your NHS pension until it pays out in full or at a reduction you can live with.
    • victordent
    • By victordent 7th Oct 17, 4:27 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    victordent
    thanks ...
    I had done well after investing with persimmon and thought that I am Warren Buffett...Reality struck soon. The NHS is on shaky ground as many hospitals are closing and there are lots of changes.So am a bit hesitant on putting more in the pension...
    will look into funds...anyone suggest a good reliable platform? I want to use someone else besides AJ bell as I have isa account with them and want to spread risks and HL too pricey...
    anyone can suggest any decent funds?
    Doc James
    • Docjames
    • By Docjames 7th Oct 17, 5:16 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Docjames
    Apologies. .used oh phone again. ..
    Doc Kylie James
    • Edale
    • By Edale 7th Oct 17, 5:36 PM
    • 222 Posts
    • 446 Thanks
    Edale
    As somebody mentioned, get a Total Reward Statement (google it). This will show you what you have accrued to date in both the 2008 and 2015 schemes and also give you an equivalent fund value that you would need to provide the benefits. I don't think you will cancel once you see this. My wife is a consultant, made (pre tax) payments of just under £12k last year which increased her pension by c£1700 per year. The total hypothetical annuity cost on the statement for 2 years of membership in the 2015 scheme is £150k, even if this is overegged a bit you would be foolish to give up the NHS pension.
    • louloubelle79
    • By louloubelle79 7th Oct 17, 6:59 PM
    • 207 Posts
    • 93 Thanks
    louloubelle79
    Hi
    I am also in Nhs pension ( 2008 scheme 3 yrs) and with only couple years so far with (2015) as left to have kids. Due to small pot and low earnings as a part time nurse working 25 hrs my contribution is low so I have set up additional payments. This could be an option?

    https://www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/member-hub/increasing-your-pension

    Additional Pension is a flexible way of increasing your NHS Pension.

    You can choose to buy a set amount of annual pension, which you can pay for either with a lump sum payment or by regular contributions deducted from your pay, for an agreed period of time.

    Additional Pension can be bought at any time during the year as either:

    personal cover which increases your own pension benefits only; or
    dependants cover, which increases your own pension and the benefits that will be payable to your spouse, partner or dependant children after your death.
    Additional Pension does not include an automatic lump sum but you can include your Additional Pension in the total pension that is exchanged for lump sum.

    Irrespective of your working pattern you will get the same amount of Additional Pension at retirement and the cost of purchasing Additional Pension is the same whether you work full time or part time.
    Hoping to be mortgage free by 2026 age 47
    Current rate 2.79% fixed for 10 years
    Current mortgage end date: 03/10/2043
    MFW Starting Mortgage Jan 17 - £114,703
    • hyubh
    • By hyubh 7th Oct 17, 7:01 PM
    • 1,913 Posts
    • 1,432 Thanks
    hyubh
    The NHS is on shaky ground as many hospitals are closing and there are lots of changes.So am a bit hesitant on putting more in the pension
    Originally posted by victordent
    Even if all NHS hospitals closed that would be irrelevant because NHS pensions are paid for out of general taxation - no individual NHS employer has its own pension liability with the scheme.
    • crv1963
    • By crv1963 7th Oct 17, 7:35 PM
    • 136 Posts
    • 398 Thanks
    crv1963
    Even if all NHS hospitals closed that would be irrelevant because NHS pensions are paid for out of general taxation - no individual NHS employer has its own pension liability with the scheme.
    Originally posted by hyubh

    I think that OP was referring to a point she made in the original post of there being other pressures to consider such as staff shortages and investing outside the scheme could if of a sufficient level enable someone to leave the profession before the pension age.


    There are many stresses in many jobs but I can see being any medical consultant let alone an A&E Consultant being very stressful along with your profession being a regular political target being blamed for NHS failings whilst making daily life and death decisions as possibly one of the most difficult. Even consultants are human!
    CRV1963- Light bulb moment Sept 15- Planning the great escape- aka retirement!
    • justme111
    • By justme111 7th Oct 17, 10:47 PM
    • 2,825 Posts
    • 2,715 Thanks
    justme111
    I would add - making these decisions when I imagine on many instamces you can do no right due to admin and financial constrains.
    • dunstonh
    • By dunstonh 7th Oct 17, 11:54 PM
    • 89,851 Posts
    • 55,457 Thanks
    dunstonh
    I had shares in provident financial since 3 years. ..After the crash in the price, my confidence in investing has really slumped.
    Having a single company share it not investing. It is speculating.

    Risk is not on/off. It is a sliding scale. You effectively jumped in the deep end without being able to swim.

    what if I lose more money
    You are a doctor in A&E. Over the years you have probably seen plenty of people suffer problems due to accidents through bad planning or poor knowledge or understanding. Well, your way of investing was like one of those people.

    If you selected more conventional investment options, you would probably hold no more than 1% in any one company. So, if that company failed, the losses would be limited. When you hold a single company share and the company fails, you can lose the lot. From your medical knowledge, you should be able to understand risk assessment. So, apply your analytical way of thinking to how you invest.
    • bigadaj
    • By bigadaj 8th Oct 17, 8:00 AM
    • 10,356 Posts
    • 6,649 Thanks
    bigadaj
    thanks ...
    I had done well after investing with persimmon and thought that I am Warren Buffett...Reality struck soon. The NHS is on shaky ground as many hospitals are closing and there are lots of changes.So am a bit hesitant on putting more in the pension...
    will look into funds...anyone suggest a good reliable platform? I want to use someone else besides AJ bell as I have isa account with them and want to spread risks and HL too pricey...
    anyone can suggest any decent funds?
    Doc James
    Originally posted by victordent
    Ah well, you can console yourself, with the knowledge that the persimmon management have at least done very well.
    • Docjames
    • By Docjames 8th Oct 17, 11:33 AM
    • 12 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Docjames
    Thanks for the consolation bigadaj. .yes. .that is what I tell myself.
    Dunston. .yes. .I agree (hindsight is a great thing )
    Will look into additional contributions. .One issue we doctors have is that we compare our benefits to our senior doctors who have retired and are much better off. .that will need to stop as things are different now..
    • bigadaj
    • By bigadaj 8th Oct 17, 1:06 PM
    • 10,356 Posts
    • 6,649 Thanks
    bigadaj
    Thanks for the consolation bigadaj. .yes. .that is what I tell myself.
    Dunston. .yes. .I agree (hindsight is a great thing )
    Will look into additional contributions. .One issue we doctors have is that we compare our benefits to our senior doctors who have retired and are much better off. .that will need to stop as things are different now..
    Originally posted by Docjames
    It's probably an easy direct comparison with your predecessors or managers, but it's just a function of the U.K. And much of the developed world.

    Standards of living have increased for millennia, but that increase probably stops at the baby boomers. So from generation x to Generation Y to millennials then everyone feels slightly worse off, far easier to compare with your contemporaries.

    It's actually the only way to view things as it's the only valid comparator, I always remember doing a level maths and the teacher using the movement of grades by examining boards as an explanation of the bell curve and normalising statistics. So you couldn't equate an a or c grade with anyone a year or below you, but could with your cohort.
    • Docjames
    • By Docjames 8th Oct 17, 5:55 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Docjames
    Very true. .One place I feel that medics can have training is financial planning. .e.g most of us don't have a clue about sipp platforms and drawdowns...reading here can give a great insight along with the advice from others.
    • TARDIS
    • By TARDIS 8th Oct 17, 6:44 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    TARDIS
    Very true. .One place I feel that medics can have training is financial planning. .e.g most of us don't have a clue about sipp platforms and drawdowns...reading here can give a great insight along with the advice from others.
    Originally posted by Docjames
    To be fair the NHS pension is generous and many doctors won't need SIPPs etc due to the LTA. If you had been in the NHS scheme from 23/24 you would likely exceed LTA around 60 if you're full time. It's easy to be jealous of the previous generation, but please don't throw away what is still a good pension scheme just because it's not as good as it once was.
    • peter3hg
    • By peter3hg 8th Oct 17, 8:11 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 57 Thanks
    peter3hg
    Thanks for the consolation bigadaj. .yes. .that is what I tell myself.
    Dunston. .yes. .I agree (hindsight is a great thing )
    Will look into additional contributions. .One issue we doctors have is that we compare our benefits to our senior doctors who have retired and are much better off. .that will need to stop as things are different now..
    Originally posted by Docjames
    On a doctor's salary you will almost certainly hit the LTA before your retirement age (currently equivalent to £50k a year pension) so the difference in the schemes is actually largely irrelevant.
    You need to look carefully at this as it might reduce the benefit of having an external private pension.
    The contribution rates haven't changed in a couple of years and aren't due to be reassessed for another 4 years so your contributions will only have increased if you've had a salary increase that takes you into a higher contribution band.
    • MonkeyDr
    • By MonkeyDr 8th Oct 17, 8:51 PM
    • 110 Posts
    • 138 Thanks
    MonkeyDr
    I'm not convinced that these days that many doctors will "almost certainly" hit the LTA.

    The 2015 scheme is CARE, with pension accruing at 1/54 of annual earnings each year (might have phrased that poorly, but you know what I mean).

    Some juniors now will, for sure.

    But I am nearly 40, and like many of my contemporaries I have recently started working part-time because I have young children and I'd like to see them occasionally. I also have chosen a specialty which pretty much requires a PhD, so I am still a couple of years off being a consultant. I earn less than £35k pa at present.

    I'm not complaining about it. But it given that even when I become a consultant my salary will be around £75k (planning go back to full-time in a couple of years), I don't think I'll hit the £50k pa pension expectation to hit the LTA. Especially as I doubt I'll be fit enough to keep working at this intensity after 60 ish.

    (for reference, if consultant salaries had kept pace with inflation from when I started medicine, the consultant starting salary would be some £20k pa higher. And pension contributions were only half as much as they are now. You can see why a) the old pension scheme was bonkers, and b) medics around our age look at those retiring now with envy)

    Like the OP I am looking at SIPPs and other options to bridge the gap.
    • bigadaj
    • By bigadaj 9th Oct 17, 11:02 AM
    • 10,356 Posts
    • 6,649 Thanks
    bigadaj
    Medics are probably in a worse situation in terms of comparator as they see directly what previous generation had or have benefitted, in many other sectors technology and practices have changed so it's far less easy to value accurately.

    However make no mistake that the same is true for almost all areas of work, apart from very senior management, such as ftse board directors.

    My missus has an allotment and there's a bunch of guys there from mid 50s up who worked on a royal ordnance site. All made redundant a decade ago when it closed down, good payoff, final salary pensions, all left school at 18 or younger, there's absolutely no chance of any kid now getting anything like the same deal.

    Just deal with current realities and move on, look at the benefits life has brought, and remember for millennia very few people retired, you worked and then you dropped dead, was a lot simpler.
    • Docjames
    • By Docjames 9th Oct 17, 2:31 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Docjames
    monkeydr,
    Yes...SIPPs are what I am looking at as well..the thing is that it seems to be a vast ocean...too many choices leaves one confused...which is why I will be very grateful if the more experienced people and helpful people here would guide us through this maze...A and E seems easy compared to this
    Doc Kylie James
    • paparossco
    • By paparossco 9th Oct 17, 3:12 PM
    • 173 Posts
    • 115 Thanks
    paparossco
    One of our ED consultants took an early retirement but came back part time doing return clinics only. All those who would thank you to leave the NHS scheme would not want to have you carrying the arrest page at 68 the night they chose to have their MI
    The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
    Wayne Dyer
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