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  • FIRST POST
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 6th Oct 17, 11:55 AM
    • 18Posts
    • 3Thanks
    Magnum0121
    Claim Form - UK Car Park Management
    • #1
    • 6th Oct 17, 11:55 AM
    Claim Form - UK Car Park Management 6th Oct 17 at 11:55 AM
    Hello,
    A couple of weeks ago on the day I was meant to be going on holiday I received a letter before claim from Gladstones. Obviously there was no time to respond as I was catching a flight, so had to respond when I got back. I sent a robust response to the LBC but it was too late, the 14 days was up and they didn't mess around with the claim form!

    I've frantically read the newbies thread again and it says "small claim? Start a new thread please"
    I've registered with MCOL so I now have until the end of he month to sort this out but I'd rather nip it in the bud.

    The parking charge in question was for "breaching the terms of parking" on the land of a residential site.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 6th Oct 17, 12:11 PM
    • 33,606 Posts
    • 17,511 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #2
    • 6th Oct 17, 12:11 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Oct 17, 12:11 PM
    Once it's got this far, "nipping in the bud" is limited to paying up


    Assuming you don't intend that, then this is the start of a longish process


    You need to concentrate on #2 in the newbies faq thread for advice and links to defences


    Construct yours and put it up for comment
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 6th Oct 17, 12:26 PM
    • 6,483 Posts
    • 8,316 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #3
    • 6th Oct 17, 12:26 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Oct 17, 12:26 PM
    Hello,
    A couple of weeks ago on the day I was meant to be going on holiday I received a letter before claim from Gladstones. Obviously there was no time to respond as I was catching a flight, so had to respond when I got back. I sent a robust response to the LBC but it was too late, the 14 days was up and they didn't mess around with the claim form!

    I've frantically read the newbies thread again and it says "small claim? Start a new thread please"
    I've registered with MCOL so I now have until the end of he month to sort this out but I'd rather nip it in the bud.

    The parking charge in question was for "breaching the terms of parking" on the land of a residential site.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you
    Originally posted by Magnum0121
    Please tell us the history of why you got a parking ticket.

    Gladstones are incompetent solicitors and they no doubt
    rushed this through to beat the 1st October new claim
    procedures

    The more you can tell us, the better the help you will get
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 6th Oct 17, 12:45 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    • #4
    • 6th Oct 17, 12:45 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Oct 17, 12:45 PM
    The car was parked on private land managed by CPM, parked outside of a bay with no permit. Not causing an obstruction or using someone else's bay.
    The charge was issued to the car when I was in the process of moving out from the owned flat into a house. The flat is still owned by me but I have tenants renting it.
    There are no visitors bays or anywhere to temporarily park whilst attempting to unload belongings or shopping.

    There is no offer of free parking on the site, just "no parking outside of marked bays, no parking without a permit" etc.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 6th Oct 17, 12:56 PM
    • 6,483 Posts
    • 8,316 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #5
    • 6th Oct 17, 12:56 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Oct 17, 12:56 PM
    The car was parked on private land managed by CPM, parked outside of a bay with no permit. Not causing an obstruction or using someone else's bay.
    The charge was issued to the car when I was in the process of moving out from the owned flat into a house. The flat is still owned by me but I have tenants renting it.
    There are no visitors bays or anywhere to temporarily park whilst attempting to unload belongings or shopping.

    There is no offer of free parking on the site, just "no parking outside of marked bays, no parking without a permit" etc.
    Originally posted by Magnum0121
    As it's still your flat, what does your lease say about parking
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 18th Oct 17, 11:57 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    • #6
    • 18th Oct 17, 11:57 AM
    • #6
    • 18th Oct 17, 11:57 AM
    Hello, could I please have some feedback on my claim form defence?
    The alleged contravention is for parking without a permit in a residents area, outside of a bay. The amount claimed is £250 in total for an original single charge of £60.

    I've already registered with MCOL.

    Thank you in advance for any help.

    Here are my defence points:

    1.a. The amount claimed is unreasonable as it is significantly higher than the original charge of £60.
    1.b.The amount claimed is unreasonable as the parking company have suffered no loss or damages.

    2.a. There is no breach of contract as there is no offer of free parking. Jolson v Homeguard (2016) it was established that ParkingEye v Beavis (2015) does not apply to residential parking.
    2.b. If the wording of the signage forbids parking then there is no offer to park and therefore no contract. In PCM-UK v Bull et al (2016) residents were parking on access roads. The signage forbade parking therefore no contract was in place. A trespass had occurred, but that meant only the land owner could claim, not the parking company.
    2.c. In UKPC v Masterson (2016) it was also found that the signage was forbidding, so the matter was one of trespass. The parking company did not have standing to claim.
    2.d. In Horizon Parking v Mr J it was also found that the signage was forbidding, so the matter was one of trespass. The parking company did not have standing to claim.

    3.a. I was not the driver of the the vehicle at the time of the alleged contravention. The parking company are not relying on POFA 2012 therefore I am under no obligation to name the driver.
    3.b. Excel v Mr B - Sheffield (2016) the Judge made it clear that without proof of driver, and without invoking keeper liability, there was no claim against the keeper.
    • Reue
    • By Reue 18th Oct 17, 12:32 PM
    • 506 Posts
    • 414 Thanks
    Reue
    • #7
    • 18th Oct 17, 12:32 PM
    • #7
    • 18th Oct 17, 12:32 PM
    Here are my defence points:

    1.a. The amount claimed is unreasonable as it is significantly higher than the original charge of £60.
    1.b.The amount claimed is unreasonable as the parking company have suffered no loss or damages.
    Originally posted by Magnum0121
    In bold in the newbies sticky thread:

    Irrelevant Defences and How To Avoid Them - what NOT to argue (DO NOT ARGUE ''NO LOSS' OR 'EXTORTIONATE CHARGE'):

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5555458
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 18th Oct 17, 12:57 PM
    • 613 Posts
    • 1,125 Thanks
    safarmuk
    • #8
    • 18th Oct 17, 12:57 PM
    • #8
    • 18th Oct 17, 12:57 PM
    This is a residential car parking case and you are the owner of a flat in that estate.

    As mentioned you are missing a massive trick if you do not check your lease and find out what it say about parking. If will likely say you have rights to park and easements. Check your lease and find out what it says.

    I would also be on to the Management Company who would have contracted this PPC and ask them why they don't get it cancelled for you. If they fob you off go to the freeholder (the people you pay your Ground Rent too).

    If you can let us know the location (we can then check signage on Google Street Maps), the Managing Agent and the Freeholder we can advise - this should have all been done previously, but its never too late to do this alongside building your defence.
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 18th Oct 17, 1:04 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    • #9
    • 18th Oct 17, 1:04 PM
    • #9
    • 18th Oct 17, 1:04 PM
    Thanks, I do need to find the lease asap. I've had a quick look but couldn't find it. I'll have another look tonight.
    I know that the parking management company was changed from UKPC to CPM, so I'm hoping that the lease states that UKPC are managing the parking, then possibly CPM wouldn't have any authority to manage the parking?


    I will remove the first point from my defence about unreasonable charges. Whilst I'm at it I may remove the "I wasn't the driver" point as the link posted above states that it could be irrelevant to my case.

    Are my points in section 2 of my defence relevant? "No contract" feels like my strongest point along with the cases mentioned
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 18th Oct 17, 1:07 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    I can't get a street view actually down the road as it is private. But on the entrance to the road there is a sign up saying "private road. Residents parking only". Followed by the usual no parking signs with hard to read conditions and phone numbers dotted around.
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 18th Oct 17, 1:40 PM
    • 613 Posts
    • 1,125 Thanks
    safarmuk
    I know that the parking management company was changed from UKPC to CPM, so I'm hoping that the lease states that UKPC are managing the parking, then possibly CPM wouldn't have any authority to manage the parking?
    Unless the PPC was there from the very beginning before anyone moved into the flats then I doubt your lease will say anything about parking controls and UKPC or UK CPM. These PPCs are brought in by Management Agents after the event to try to "help" residents and "control" the car park. They use outdated methods (like paper permits) deliberately to facilitate issuing tickets (some do the "you need to renew your permit every year wheeze").

    It will be your Management Agent (the people you pay service charge to) who almost certainly contracted the PPC. Have you even spoken to them about this? They should be able to provide you with the contract they signed with the PPC. I would also complain to them that you are being taken to court by their agent ... especially if you are using the facilities in accordance with your lease.

    Also your lease is paramount, you will absolutely need this.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 18th Oct 17, 2:12 PM
    • 6,483 Posts
    • 8,316 Thanks
    beamerguy
    I can't get a street view actually down the road as it is private. But on the entrance to the road there is a sign up saying "private road. Residents parking only". Followed by the usual no parking signs with hard to read conditions and phone numbers dotted around.
    Originally posted by Magnum0121
    This will depend on your lease and what says about parking.

    The courts do not favour scammers who try to override
    your rights

    READ THIS and take into account that UKPC has a bad history
    of faking pictures
    UKPC lose residential case. Charge not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/ukpc-lose-residential-case-charge-not.html
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 18th Oct 17, 2:22 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    I've just been on the phone to the management agent. They were zero help. They could give me any details about their contract and couldn't give me any advice because apparently they can only help within 28 days of the PCN
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 18th Oct 17, 2:27 PM
    • 613 Posts
    • 1,125 Thanks
    safarmuk
    I've just been on the phone to the management agent. They were zero help. They could give me any details about their contract and couldn't give me any advice because apparently they can only help within 28 days of the PCN
    Firstly, you need these conversations in writing.
    Seriously, they could not provide you with the contract? If not then does it even exist ... if not what are the PPC doing on the residential estate? Questions for the MA.

    The MA is responsible for the actions of their agents (e.g. the PPC they employed). If they are saying they did not employ the PPC then who did?

    I would go back to the MA in writing and ask them for much more information and don't be so nice (give them a deadline to respond). If they employed the PPC they control the PPC and they can tell the PPC to discontinue proceedings as this is an invalid ticket. If they are saying this is a valid ticket then you have another avenue that the MA is breaching your leasehold rights (depending on what the lease says).

    You should read "hairrays" thread - search for it. He had much the same problem and a couple of LBCs sorted it.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 18th Oct 17, 2:31 PM
    • 6,483 Posts
    • 8,316 Thanks
    beamerguy
    I've just been on the phone to the management agent. They were zero help. They could give me any details about their contract and couldn't give me any advice because apparently they can only help within 28 days of the PCN
    Originally posted by Magnum0121
    A fob off and a lie about 28 days of the PCN

    Time to get heavy ...... let them know they are jointly
    responsible for the actions of their agent and you will
    have no option but to involve them in any court action.

    Maybe their 28 day rule will be flexible ?????
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 18th Oct 17, 2:39 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    They put me through to the buildings manager (apparently) who sounded like he was in a world of his own, completely clueless.
    Are the obligated to share their contract with a resident like myself?
    I was very persistent, I asked the same question several times.

    When I'm home from work I'll post what the lease says about parking. I know where it is.

    It's amazing how stressful this is...
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 18th Oct 17, 2:42 PM
    • 6,483 Posts
    • 8,316 Thanks
    beamerguy
    They put me through to the buildings manager (apparently) who sounded like he was in a world of his own, completely clueless.
    Are the obligated to share their contract with a resident like myself?
    I was very persistent, I asked the same question several times.

    When I'm home from work I'll post what the lease says about parking. I know where it is.

    It's amazing how stressful this is...
    Originally posted by Magnum0121
    No point in stressing.
    If it went to court they would have to, you are trying to save
    them the effort of going to court
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 18th Oct 17, 3:35 PM
    • 613 Posts
    • 1,125 Thanks
    safarmuk
    Are the obligated to share their contract with a resident like myself?
    If you are being taken to court by their agent then yes, I would imagine they should show you this and if not it should be included in the Claimants evidence.

    I think you need to start putting this in writing to the MA. The parking scheme was probably put in place to deter non-residents, of which you are not one, so why are they taking you to court?

    MA's are just a joke, they constantly employ PPCs and then wonder why it goes wrong and then worse don't step in when it does go wrong.

    Your lease is key, once we know more we can advise better.
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 18th Oct 17, 5:13 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    I found the lease. Not an awful lot of info regarding parking, but this is what I've found:


    Covenants by the buyer:

    Parking:
    19. Not to use any car parking space for any purpose other than the parking of one private motor car or one private motorcycle which shall be in a roadworthy condition and shall exhibit a current road fund licence.

    That seems to be the only point directly related to parking.
    Another section that's possibly of some relevance:

    Rights Granted - Access
    To pass with or without vehicles along the Estate roads and any other roads connecting thereto which are intended to be highways maintainable at the public expense to provide access and egress to and from the public highway and to pass with or without vehicles as appropriate over any of the vehicular access-ways comprised in the Common Parts for the purpose of access and egress from the property.
    • Magnum0121
    • By Magnum0121 19th Oct 17, 3:48 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Magnum0121
    Could anyone assist in regards to the lease? I can't see a relevant point there myself
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