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  • FIRST POST
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 6th Oct 17, 6:28 AM
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    saintscouple
    Condensation Bedroom Windows
    • #1
    • 6th Oct 17, 6:28 AM
    Condensation Bedroom Windows 6th Oct 17 at 6:28 AM
    OK, so we live in a 2 bed, mid-terrace house with a wet room between the 2 bedrooms, no window, just an extractor pump fitted in loft the sucks the moisture out of the wet room and pumps it outside via an outlet in the roof. The pump works well with condensation quickly leaving the bathroom mirror.
    Both bedroom have had newly fitted windows this year, also had new central heating system installed this year with correctly sized radiators.
    Now the cold weather is here, we have all windows closed, but trickle vents open.
    We are a couple and only use the 1 bedroom, both bedroom doors are left open for the cats to wander freely.
    The heating is on 21c during the day which we increase to 22c when going up to bed.
    But yet we still have condensation on all upstair windows in the morning.
    Can anyone suggest where the problem lies?
    I have checked the loft and insulation seems plentiful above the bedroom, and perhaps a little sparse above the wet room where the pump was installed and cabling laid.

    The extractor pump was again installed this year and was told it was the most powerful solution, it comes on when we turn the light on, and continues for approx 5 mins after we turn the light out.... could it be the power or duration could be increased and that could help?

    The condensation used to affect the downstairs windows, but the radiators and windows seemed to have solved it there.

    I forgot to mention we have a condenser dryer in an alcove in the spare bedroom, which has doors, but still main and spare bedroom windows have condensation equally. I have a cheap hydrometer which showed at 5am this morning the inside temp was 19.4c with a humidity of 86%. The 2 outer panes of glass with the trickle vents above weren't too bad, but the middle panes were full steamed up completely.
    Incidentally the outside temp was 8.0c and the thermostat downstairs was showing 22.0c, the hygrometer was placed on the window sill above the radiator (which was warm).

    Would really appreciate some advice as we are housing association tenants, and although they've done a lot of improvements in terms of the extractor pump, radiators, and windows, it would be good if i could point them in a direction of finally solving this condensation issue.

    Tia

    Last edited by saintscouple; 06-10-2017 at 6:30 AM. Reason: photo
Page 2
    • tacpot12
    • By tacpot12 8th Oct 17, 9:39 AM
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    tacpot12
    The PIV units are very effective, especially in properties that have trickle vents on the windows. The positive pressure moves damp air out of the whole property replacing it with dry air, whereas an extractor fan pulls the replacement air from rest of the property into the room it is fitted in. If this air is already damp, the damp room dries out more slowly.

    I looked at fitting a PIV unit into a rental flat that was having a bit of a damp problem in the bathroom, but held off as the tenants were changing and I wanted to see if the tenants made a difference. I even looked at building my own PIV unit but cost of the parts was only a few pounds less that a Nuaire Flatmaster so I gave up on that idea.
    Last edited by tacpot12; 08-10-2017 at 9:48 AM.
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 8th Oct 17, 12:45 PM
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    saintscouple
    The PIV units are very effective, especially in properties that have trickle vents on the windows. The positive pressure moves damp air out of the whole property replacing it with dry air, whereas an extractor fan pulls the replacement air from rest of the property into the room it is fitted in. If this air is already damp, the damp room dries out more slowly.

    I looked at fitting a PIV unit into a rental flat that was having a bit of a damp problem in the bathroom, but held off as the tenants were changing and I wanted to see if the tenants made a difference. I even looked at building my own PIV unit but cost of the parts was only a few pounds less that a Nuaire Flatmaster so I gave up on that idea.
    Originally posted by tacpot12
    Thanks, I was surprised just how competitively priced they are in comparison to a dehumidifier, seeing as with this once it's installed you can almost forget about it.
    I think now i have seen these before, in my father-in-law's new build bungalow before he moved, he had a vent in the ceiling, so imagine it would have been this.
    • DorsetLad
    • By DorsetLad 8th Oct 17, 11:11 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    DorsetLad
    OP, you asked: "The extractor pump was again installed this year and was told it was the most powerful solution, it comes on when we turn the light on, and continues for approx 5 mins after we turn the light out.... could it be the power or duration could be increased and that could help?"
    One way you might test this would be to leave the light on for 30 mins (or longer) after showering, so that the fan stays on for 35 mins. Does this reduce the window condensation? (Even if, as at present, the fan clears the condensation from your bathroom mirror, there could still be enough moisture in the air to condense on a cold window).
    If you can find out the make and model of the fan you can Google to find out its rate of air flow and compare this with the volume of air in your bathroom. I agree with other posters that a humidistat would be a good idea.
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 9th Oct 17, 9:12 AM
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    saintscouple
    OP, you asked: "The extractor pump was again installed this year and was told it was the most powerful solution, it comes on when we turn the light on, and continues for approx 5 mins after we turn the light out.... could it be the power or duration could be increased and that could help?"
    One way you might test this would be to leave the light on for 30 mins (or longer) after showering, so that the fan stays on for 35 mins. Does this reduce the window condensation? (Even if, as at present, the fan clears the condensation from your bathroom mirror, there could still be enough moisture in the air to condense on a cold window).
    If you can find out the make and model of the fan you can Google to find out its rate of air flow and compare this with the volume of air in your bathroom. I agree with other posters that a humidistat would be a good idea.
    Originally posted by DorsetLad
    Thanks, this was my original concern when posting however, now i have a hygrometer placed on the window sill of each window i have been monitoring the readings before and after a shower and it shows no real increase in humidity. I take it that if not the fan, then having the door shut is keeping the moisture in the bathroom, and also with the door shut there doesn't seem to be a build up of moisture in the bathroom.
    You have a good point though, and will go up in to the loft and see if i can find a model number on the pump, and a timer switch that will allow me extend the running time of the fan after i've switched it off.
    Thank you

    Here's the up to date readings, the overnight temperatures have risen recently, thus no visual evidence of condensation, but the humidity readings are too high. I have kept the windows ajar, all trickle vents open, reduced the TVR on the radiators to 3 out of 5, the thermostat in the hall i have at 21 during the day and 18 when going to bed.... although.... the temp on the thermostat shows no lower than 21.5 which is during the night and up as high as 23.5 during the day, so in effect the radiators are not coming on...........

    hmmm..... could that be the problem, it's warmer downstair than in the bedrooms?
    Is that normal, or is there an issue with the bedrooms not retaining heat, as heat rises, which would do up the stairs and as i say, insulation is sparse above the area that is the bathroom and landing?
    There again, the bedroom windows are open ajar for the ventilation, perhaps it's just there that the warm air is escaping.

    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 9th Oct 17, 11:59 AM
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    saintscouple
    Timed the extractor fan and it runs for 7 mins after turning it off.
    Went in the loft and took a photo of the sticker on it, it seems to be a sealed unit, so no visible switch to alter the timing,
    Whilst in the loft the insulation above the bathroom isn't as bad as i thought, but, underneath where the water tank used to there is no insulation at all. I notice a vent in the roof, which i think should be there and would be needed if a PIV unit was installed. Not sure about the hole in the cavity that i noticed should be there though.









    • Grenage
    • By Grenage 9th Oct 17, 12:35 PM
    • 1,260 Posts
    • 1,201 Thanks
    Grenage
    The timing dials are normally under the cover, where the unit's wires terminate.
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 9th Oct 17, 3:24 PM
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    saintscouple
    The timing dials are normally under the cover, where the unit's wires terminate.
    Originally posted by Grenage
    Yeah i was thinking it would be under the cover somewhere, but it's not for me to play with, leave that to the housing, i'm just trying to gather as much evidence and advice as i can for the housing to make a decision on how to rectify the problem, i,e lower the humidity.

    I have had a reply back via email from the housing which they say in conclusion that the humidity is too high when the outside temperature drops, and they will look into fitting a humidistat fan or a 50/50 air filter system.

    I would hope if a humidistat fan that it wouldn't be installed in a bedroom would it? as i remember them being quite noisy, and i use a CPAP machine each and every night thus medically don't need disturbed sleep from the noise of a fan.
    I am also unable to google what a 50/50 air filter system is for sure, but assuming it is the same as the PIV unit, or very similar.
    I've since informed them of my medical condition, so will await their decision and dates for survey, installation, etc In the meantime i will continue the readings as will be interesting to see how they change once the remedy is in place.

    Edit: Just been informed a contractor will be in touch to make arrangements to come and survey the best solution for us, so that's nice to get some reassuring news that something will be done and to get a professional insight into the cause of the problem and the remedy.
    Thanks to all who took the time to read and post their advice, i shall update this thread throughout the process for those that have an interest, and for anyone who may research in the future.
    Last edited by saintscouple; 09-10-2017 at 3:37 PM.
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 10th Oct 17, 6:20 AM
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    saintscouple
    Well this is interesting, with a mould and condensation survey booked with the contractor for Wednesday this week i thought i would see how the readings differ with the windows closed and just relying on the trickle vents to do their job, after all that's how it's meant to be and when it gets near freezing in the winter outside, we are not going to want to have those windows open. So i closed the windows yesterday afternoon, and straight away the humidity rises and we are back to condensation on the panes, this is how it looked this morning when i woke... outer panes clear, but this was the middle pane.....



    The middle pane has no trickle vent, only the 2 outer panes.

    And here's the readings, outside temperature hasn't changed, but look at the difference in the main bedroom, internal temperature has risen a couple of degrees and the humidity has risen significantly, all through the windows being closed as they should....



    Look forward to what the surveyor says tomorrow.
    • Rijndael
    • By Rijndael 10th Oct 17, 6:27 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Rijndael
    This is a very common issue. It's more problematic if you own a single skin home. If it's double skinned w/ an insulated cavity then the inner wall will remain warmer and thus the heat difference is substantially reduced, and therefore there is less condensation.

    There is moisture everywhere due to evaporation (via the sink, food, when you cook, as you breathe etc) and it needs to go somewhere. When you have the windows closed, the air heats up (computer, telly, heating, cooking etc) and accumulates more moisture. Such air is also "stale" since it is not being readily replaced, so naturally it will build up and condense on any cold surfaces.

    PIV systems will practically eliminate the problem. Cool air is drawn in, and the stale air is moved around/pushed out so you have a constant stream of clean, fresh air. You can install it in the attic, and be done with it. It doesn't need an inlet like an extractor fan - all it needs is a well ventilated area to pull fresh air from, and the loft is ideal since it has (by design) a constant stream of cool air flowing through it.

    You will notice that this issue mostly occurs between October and March. The PIV system is only run in this period.

    Don't use an extractor fan, it is usually placed along with a vent so will only keep your wet room condensation free due to most of the airflow being from the vent to the extractor fan. It is also much louder, and operates at a high RPM whereas a PIV operates at a much lower RPM.

    Dehumidifiers are expensively priced, costly to run, and it will take a lot of work to setup appropriate pipework throughout the house to adequately dehumidify it.

    The PIV solution overcomes all of these limitations, since air is being pushed into the house forcing stale air out wherever there are gaps/vents. It is important you don't open windows when using a PIV system to maintain good air pressure within the property. You should however leave the trickle vents open.
    • DorsetLad
    • By DorsetLad 10th Oct 17, 11:14 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    DorsetLad
    Re: humidistat. Some fans do come with a humidistat built in, but you only need the humidistat itself, which is basically just a switch that switches on when the humidity is above the level you set. They generate no noise. You can have the humidistat in the bathroom controlling the fan in the loft. Incidentally, that is quite a powerful fan you have (not sure if I'm allowed to mention the name on MSE?). The fan's manufacturers also make a humidistat to control it.
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 11th Oct 17, 9:49 AM
    • 3,839 Posts
    • 2,916 Thanks
    saintscouple
    This is a very common issue. It's more problematic if you own a single skin home. If it's double skinned w/ an insulated cavity then the inner wall will remain warmer and thus the heat difference is substantially reduced, and therefore there is less condensation.

    There is moisture everywhere due to evaporation (via the sink, food, when you cook, as you breathe etc) and it needs to go somewhere. When you have the windows closed, the air heats up (computer, telly, heating, cooking etc) and accumulates more moisture. Such air is also "stale" since it is not being readily replaced, so naturally it will build up and condense on any cold surfaces.

    PIV systems will practically eliminate the problem. Cool air is drawn in, and the stale air is moved around/pushed out so you have a constant stream of clean, fresh air. You can install it in the attic, and be done with it. It doesn't need an inlet like an extractor fan - all it needs is a well ventilated area to pull fresh air from, and the loft is ideal since it has (by design) a constant stream of cool air flowing through it.

    You will notice that this issue mostly occurs between October and March. The PIV system is only run in this period.

    Don't use an extractor fan, it is usually placed along with a vent so will only keep your wet room condensation free due to most of the airflow being from the vent to the extractor fan. It is also much louder, and operates at a high RPM whereas a PIV operates at a much lower RPM.

    Dehumidifiers are expensively priced, costly to run, and it will take a lot of work to setup appropriate pipework throughout the house to adequately dehumidify it.

    The PIV solution overcomes all of these limitations, since air is being pushed into the house forcing stale air out wherever there are gaps/vents. It is important you don't open windows when using a PIV system to maintain good air pressure within the property. You should however leave the trickle vents open.
    Originally posted by Rijndael
    Thank you for such a detailed reply, I will certainly mention if this option would be viable to the surveyor today.

    Re: humidistat. Some fans do come with a humidistat built in, but you only need the humidistat itself, which is basically just a switch that switches on when the humidity is above the level you set. They generate no noise. You can have the humidistat in the bathroom controlling the fan in the loft. Incidentally, that is quite a powerful fan you have (not sure if I'm allowed to mention the name on MSE?). The fan's manufacturers also make a humidistat to control it.
    Originally posted by DorsetLad
    For sure, MSE have no problem with brand names being mentioned, all for the greater good here lol
    But yeah, i saw the wattage and wondered if this is a costly thing to run, especially if tying up a humidistat to it!
    This is the thing though, the moisture in the bathroom is pretty much contained how it is, it's getting the humidity down in the bedrooms that is needed. I've taken readings before and after a shower and it shows a 2% increase in humidity in the main bedroom, no change in the spare, so thinking the fan in the bathroom is doing its job as it is.
    Again i'll discuss this with the surveyor today...... bet the surveyor tells me all my readings are irrelevant though

    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 11th Oct 17, 11:00 AM
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    saintscouple
    Surveyor been and gone, went around the house taking readings, photos', asking what we do in certain situations, i,e closing bathroom door when taking a shower, etc all that we already do.
    He was unable to comment if anything can be done, just that he has gathered all the information he needs, he then sends that information to the contractor who will contact the housing with their findings.
    He's sending his bit off today, so just a matter of waiting to hear back from the housing on solutions, at least the surveyor acknowledged there is a problem.
    • Apodemus
    • By Apodemus 11th Oct 17, 1:22 PM
    • 929 Posts
    • 728 Thanks
    Apodemus
    This is a very common issue. It's more problematic if you own a single skin home. If it's double skinned w/ an insulated cavity then the inner wall will remain warmer and thus the heat difference is substantially reduced, and therefore there is less condensation.

    There is moisture everywhere due to evaporation (via the sink, food, when you cook, as you breathe etc) and it needs to go somewhere. When you have the windows closed, the air heats up (computer, telly, heating, cooking etc) and accumulates more moisture. Such air is also "stale" since it is not being readily replaced, so naturally it will build up and condense on any cold surfaces.

    PIV systems will practically eliminate the problem. Cool air is drawn in, and the stale air is moved around/pushed out so you have a constant stream of clean, fresh air. You can install it in the attic, and be done with it. It doesn't need an inlet like an extractor fan - all it needs is a well ventilated area to pull fresh air from, and the loft is ideal since it has (by design) a constant stream of cool air flowing through it.

    You will notice that this issue mostly occurs between October and March. The PIV system is only run in this period.

    Don't use an extractor fan, it is usually placed along with a vent so will only keep your wet room condensation free due to most of the airflow being from the vent to the extractor fan. It is also much louder, and operates at a high RPM whereas a PIV operates at a much lower RPM.

    Dehumidifiers are expensively priced, costly to run, and it will take a lot of work to setup appropriate pipework throughout the house to adequately dehumidify it.

    The PIV solution overcomes all of these limitations, since air is being pushed into the house forcing stale air out wherever there are gaps/vents. It is important you don't open windows when using a PIV system to maintain good air pressure within the property. You should however leave the trickle vents open.
    Originally posted by Rijndael
    Hmmm...

    Whether the building is single-skinned or double-skinned will make very little difference to the amount of moisture in the air or the amount that the OP is getting on the windows. (The only difference being the amount of water condensing out on the walls in the single-skinned building).

    An extractor fan is much more efficient at quickly removing the huge amount of water vapour being produced in the shower room than any other method. Even if a PIV is the best answer for the rest of the house, a good extractor fan in the bathroom will stop much of the moisture getting into the rest of the house.

    Dehumidifiers have their place and are very good at removing excess moisture from parts of a building where there is a source (such as a bedroom with sleeping adults).

    Installing a PIV system may well help the OP, but (unless you are in the business of selling these!) they are not a panacea for all ills.
    Last edited by Apodemus; 11-10-2017 at 1:24 PM.
    • Rijndael
    • By Rijndael 11th Oct 17, 2:12 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Rijndael
    Hmmm...

    Whether the building is single-skinned or double-skinned will make very little difference to the amount of moisture in the air or the amount that the OP is getting on the windows. (The only difference being the amount of water condensing out on the walls in the single-skinned building).

    An extractor fan is much more efficient at quickly removing the huge amount of water vapour being produced in the shower room than any other method. Even if a PIV is the best answer for the rest of the house, a good extractor fan in the bathroom will stop much of the moisture getting into the rest of the house.

    Dehumidifiers have their place and are very good at removing excess moisture from parts of a building where there is a source (such as a bedroom with sleeping adults).

    Installing a PIV system may well help the OP, but (unless you are in the business of selling these!) they are not a panacea for all ills.
    Originally posted by Apodemus
    If I am in the PIV business, you must be in the extractor fan trade ?

    I've been through the entire process approximately 2 years ago. We had severe damp and mould issues within our property spanning over 10 years and I finally decided to deal with it once and for all.

    I too initially thought it was the bathroom, since everyone enjoyed a steamy bath, and at the time we had no extractor fan. Initially, I went for a 100m^3 100mm inline extractor, but found it taking too long. Long story short, I ended up fitting in a 150mm 450m^3/m fan and it was literally sucking out the steam as it was being generated.

    The mould growth in the bathroom dropped to nill, but we still had severe mould issues in other places. My eyes moved onto the kitchen, and again I fitted another extractor fan and that reduced condensation build up in the kitchen during cooking but did not aid it much after the cooking/when the fan was turned off.

    That STILL did not deal with the mould build up in landing, and in the bedrooms, until after I fitted a PIV system.

    The bathroom/kitchen definitely needs it's own dedicated extraction, but it won't account for the rest of the property.

    Some other things to consider:
    1. Extractor fans are usually loud since they operate at much higher RPMs. PIVs are much quieter since they are low RPM. At night, I can barely hear the PIV fan, and it's right next to my room. Whereas the extractor fans can be heard from the garden!

    2. Extractor fans need ample ventilation to pull air hence they are usually accommodated with a vent. Not having ample airflow will increase the effort of the fan and reduce it's lifespan.
    When you have an extractor fan with a vent, if it is a standard size then it may very well draw up to 80/90% of it's air from that vent; the other 10/20% from the property which is not very efficient.
    With a PIV, all windows, doors etc are closed except for trickle vents. This creates positive pressure within the property, and the air is more evenly displaced.

    3. Extractor fans pull air out very quickly. So when you have the heating on, it'll quickly pull all that warm air out of the room and you'll be shivering even with the heating on!
    A PIV will operate at a much lower RPM, so air is drawn in slowly, which allows it to heat up. Also, with PIVs only the area below the fan is cool, but the rest of the house retains the heat.

    4. 99% of extractor fans worth their weight are inline/axial. PIV fans are centrifugal, so will have much higher pressure which is why they are so good at pushing and expelling air within the property when all doors/windows are closed.

    I love my PIV (and extractor) fans! We always used to wake up in the mornings and you would have that damp stinch, and just nasty smelling stale air, not anymore. The house smells fresh, and clean (even with all the windows closed 24/7). The window condensation has dropped by 98%, and mould is completely eliminated. It absolutely works; what a god send.
    Last edited by Rijndael; 11-10-2017 at 2:39 PM.
    • Apodemus
    • By Apodemus 11th Oct 17, 2:50 PM
    • 929 Posts
    • 728 Thanks
    Apodemus
    Thanks, you have confirmed that the PIV has its place alongside fans and other methods of controlling humidity and condensation. It was your “Don’t use an extractor fan” comment....that “sucked”!
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 14th Oct 17, 7:58 AM
    • 3,839 Posts
    • 2,916 Thanks
    saintscouple
    Still taking the readings, and humidity still high even though the outside temp is higher than it has been....


    • thepurplepixie
    • By thepurplepixie 14th Oct 17, 9:47 AM
    • 676 Posts
    • 1,211 Thanks
    thepurplepixie
    I've got two rental properties that had this problem. The PIV worked beautifully in both and I thought they were well worth the investment. I don't know all the technical stuff and don't know if they would suit all situations but I found them great.
    • tacpot12
    • By tacpot12 14th Oct 17, 10:11 AM
    • 683 Posts
    • 583 Thanks
    tacpot12
    But yeah, i saw the wattage and wondered if this is a costly thing to run, especially if tying up a humidistat to it!
    23 watts is a tiny amount of power. If you let the fan running constantly all year, it would use about £25 of electricity. I have the same fan controlled by a remote humidistat, and it runs for up to an hour after someone has taken a long shower. We're a large family, and I hear the fan running twice a day at most. On that basis, it is costing us £2 a year in electricity.

    The PIV units will cost a similar amount to run, if they don't have a heating element. I would not fit one without a heating element as you will get a cold draft from the input vent in winter.
    • thepurplepixie
    • By thepurplepixie 14th Oct 17, 1:18 PM
    • 676 Posts
    • 1,211 Thanks
    thepurplepixie
    My tenants haven't had a problem with a cold draft, the guy who fitted it said if you position it properly it won't be a problem. If I put my hand up near it I can feel it but not standing normally.
    • peachyprice
    • By peachyprice 14th Oct 17, 2:08 PM
    • 18,637 Posts
    • 42,819 Thanks
    peachyprice
    Well this is interesting, with a mould and condensation survey booked with the contractor for Wednesday this week i thought i would see how the readings differ with the windows closed and just relying on the trickle vents to do their job, after all that's how it's meant to be and when it gets near freezing in the winter outside, we are not going to want to have those windows open. So i closed the windows yesterday afternoon, and straight away the humidity rises and we are back to condensation on the panes, this is how it looked this morning when i woke... outer panes clear, but this was the middle pane.....
    Originally posted by saintscouple
    We have a top window open in every bedroom 24/7 365. If we didn't we'd have a condensation problem.
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