Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 6th Oct 17, 6:28 AM
    • 3,844Posts
    • 2,916Thanks
    saintscouple
    Condensation Bedroom Windows
    • #1
    • 6th Oct 17, 6:28 AM
    Condensation Bedroom Windows 6th Oct 17 at 6:28 AM
    OK, so we live in a 2 bed, mid-terrace house with a wet room between the 2 bedrooms, no window, just an extractor pump fitted in loft the sucks the moisture out of the wet room and pumps it outside via an outlet in the roof. The pump works well with condensation quickly leaving the bathroom mirror.
    Both bedroom have had newly fitted windows this year, also had new central heating system installed this year with correctly sized radiators.
    Now the cold weather is here, we have all windows closed, but trickle vents open.
    We are a couple and only use the 1 bedroom, both bedroom doors are left open for the cats to wander freely.
    The heating is on 21c during the day which we increase to 22c when going up to bed.
    But yet we still have condensation on all upstair windows in the morning.
    Can anyone suggest where the problem lies?
    I have checked the loft and insulation seems plentiful above the bedroom, and perhaps a little sparse above the wet room where the pump was installed and cabling laid.

    The extractor pump was again installed this year and was told it was the most powerful solution, it comes on when we turn the light on, and continues for approx 5 mins after we turn the light out.... could it be the power or duration could be increased and that could help?

    The condensation used to affect the downstairs windows, but the radiators and windows seemed to have solved it there.

    I forgot to mention we have a condenser dryer in an alcove in the spare bedroom, which has doors, but still main and spare bedroom windows have condensation equally. I have a cheap hydrometer which showed at 5am this morning the inside temp was 19.4c with a humidity of 86%. The 2 outer panes of glass with the trickle vents above weren't too bad, but the middle panes were full steamed up completely.
    Incidentally the outside temp was 8.0c and the thermostat downstairs was showing 22.0c, the hygrometer was placed on the window sill above the radiator (which was warm).

    Would really appreciate some advice as we are housing association tenants, and although they've done a lot of improvements in terms of the extractor pump, radiators, and windows, it would be good if i could point them in a direction of finally solving this condensation issue.

    Tia

    Last edited by saintscouple; 06-10-2017 at 6:30 AM. Reason: photo
Page 1
    • Browntoa
    • By Browntoa 6th Oct 17, 7:18 AM
    • 31,941 Posts
    • 37,677 Thanks
    Browntoa
    • #2
    • 6th Oct 17, 7:18 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Oct 17, 7:18 AM
    I'm thinking the tumble dryer

    You can get bathroom extractor with humidity sensors which trickle airflow out when humidity hits a certain level
    I'm the Board Guide of the Referrers ,Telephones, Pensions , Shop Don't drop ,over 50's and Discount Code boards which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum runnning smoothly .However, please remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.
    • tacpot12
    • By tacpot12 6th Oct 17, 8:00 AM
    • 743 Posts
    • 645 Thanks
    tacpot12
    • #3
    • 6th Oct 17, 8:00 AM
    • #3
    • 6th Oct 17, 8:00 AM
    The extractor fan is the problem. Running on for five minutes is not long enough to solve the issue. In my experience, no fan with an adjustable timer has a long enough run on.

    I have two properties that had similar problems. The problems in both have been solved by wiring the extractor fan to a humidistat so that the fan runs when the air is wet and keeps running until the air is dry. The fan is effectively only controlled by the humidistat, although I do have it wired in one property to also come on with the light switch, so it is always on when the light is on, but if the light is off, it is then controlled by the humidistat.

    When the fan is fixed, I would also suggest you turn down the heating at night, not up. You will get a better nights sleep and save energy. 17 degrees c is the recommended temperature for bedrooms at night.
    Last edited by tacpot12; 06-10-2017 at 8:02 AM.
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 6th Oct 17, 9:02 AM
    • 3,844 Posts
    • 2,916 Thanks
    saintscouple
    • #4
    • 6th Oct 17, 9:02 AM
    • #4
    • 6th Oct 17, 9:02 AM
    I'm thinking the tumble dryer

    You can get bathroom extractor with humidity sensors which trickle airflow out when humidity hits a certain level
    Originally posted by Browntoa
    The tumble dryer is on just 2 days a week (we are only a couple), and was last on 3 days prior to the photo shown. It's also very new with filters cleaned after each day of use. It may be a contributing factor, but we have to dry clothes and found it worse if we use a clothes horse or hang on radiators, or course more expensive but prefer the cost to the condensation.

    A good point on the humidistat

    Thank you
    The extractor fan is the problem. Running on for five minutes is not long enough to solve the issue. In my experience, no fan with an adjustable timer has a long enough run on.

    I have two properties that had similar problems. The problems in both have been solved by wiring the extractor fan to a humidistat so that the fan runs when the air is wet and keeps running until the air is dry. The fan is effectively only controlled by the humidistat, although I do have it wired in one property to also come on with the light switch, so it is always on when the light is on, but if the light is off, it is then controlled by the humidistat.

    When the fan is fixed, I would also suggest you turn down the heating at night, not up. You will get a better nights sleep and save energy. 17 degrees c is the recommended temperature for bedrooms at night.
    Originally posted by tacpot12
    Thank you, this has made me think, back in November last year the fan in the bathroom stopped working, and it was run off a humidistat. It wasn't till December that the fan was replaced, but what they did was remove the humidistat, fit and inline outlet in the ceiling, then install a pump in the loft running off a timer with ducting from the ceiling outlet to the pump, then from the pump to the outlet in the roof.
    So perhaps if the housing were willing to run the pump off a humidistat that could ease the problem.
    Though to note, we reported condensation on the windows a month before the old fan failed (these were on the old timber frame windows which were double glazed, albeit 4mm glass, 4mm cavity)
    We had only moved in to the property in July, a few months before, there is a row of 4 houses, and all have the same condensation issue, although the end 2 houses have added ventilation of a window to their bathrooms

    Interesting on the turning temp down at night, and yes since turning it up to 22c i haven't slept well at all, so will at least maintain it at 21c and see what housing say.

    Unfortunately we are on benefits and funds are limited on what we can do ourselves to cure this condensation problem, the hygrometers are about as far as we can go, although not looked at the price of a humidistat, but the installation cost would probably be more.

    Thanks for your advice.
    • shortcrust
    • By shortcrust 6th Oct 17, 9:49 AM
    • 1,451 Posts
    • 1,911 Thanks
    shortcrust
    • #5
    • 6th Oct 17, 9:49 AM
    • #5
    • 6th Oct 17, 9:49 AM
    I have a condensor dryer and having it on for an hour in a small basement room with almost no ventilation usually increases the relative humidity by about 5%. It's nothing that would explain the OP's situation, although obviously every bit of water in the air does contribute.

    If the money were there I'd recommend getting a dehumidifier. Any relatives that could get one as a very unexciting Christmas present?

    I think you'd be amazed at the difference flinging all your windows open for 10 minutes would do. When it's 8c outside the air is much drier than inside even if it's foggy and pouring with rain. You don't lose as much heat as you'd imagine and the humidity would plummet. 86% at 19c is very damp. The extractor fan and trickle vents just aren't going to cut it.

    You might know all about this already, but understanding more about relative humidity and dew point has really helped me to manage the damp in my house. Check this out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiejHVHrdOo

    I'm interested that you put the heating up when you go to bed. I've always turned my heating off and hour before bed, no matter how cold it is outside. I love feeling snug in my duvet when it's cold. That said, I think if you turned your heating off at night with those sort of humidity levels you'd end up with damp walls and furnishings.
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 6th Oct 17, 11:53 AM
    • 3,844 Posts
    • 2,916 Thanks
    saintscouple
    • #6
    • 6th Oct 17, 11:53 AM
    • #6
    • 6th Oct 17, 11:53 AM
    We did run a dehumidifier earlier this year, purchased 2nd hand, but it didn't really collect a lot of moisture, was intrusive with the noise, and used a lot of electricity... perhaps we had the wrong type, insufficient to our needs, or it was faulty, i don't know. But we would like to actually uncover and address the issue at the source so to speak before we look at that route again.
    We did start with those moisture devices that hold a tablet and sit on the window sill, but for what was meant to last 4.8 or 12 weeks whatever it was, they were full in a couple of days and were proving the most costly of devices when you think we needed one for each room.

    We would be happy to open the windows slightly ajar on the latch to aid air circulation, but were advised by the housing to keep the windows closed and let the trickle vents do their job. It was also on their advice to maintain a constant temperature, which i have misinterpreted it and put the heating up a degree at night, which i will stop doing and maintain it at 21c from where the thermostat is located in the hall below.
    Again, since i raised the temp by a degree i haven't slept well at all and find it much too hot, i would like to lower the temperature at night, but need to go with the advice from housing... we have a 1tog duvet on the bed with just 1 sheet... that's how hot we are, and i can't see lowering it just 1c is going to change it that much, taking it down to 17c sounds ideal, but then we would be too cold during the day.
    As you say, the heat is probably keeping the damp problems to the windows and stopping it spread to the walls.

    Just a thought, when the extractor fan stopped working in the bathroom last year, it took the housing a month to replace it, so that couldn't have helped matters, being that there is no window in the bathroom, but also the ducting from the fan to the roof outlet was torn. So even when the fan was working, the moisture could have been escaping in to the loft area. There is no signs of damp in the loft, and insulation doesn't seem damp, so guess not a factor, apart from spare insulation in the loft above the bathroom.

    The housing have asked me to take humidity, indoor, outdoor temp and take photo's for a week and then provide them with this.

    My only hope is a fix can be achieved before winter really kicks in and the temperature outside plummets as imagine the condensation will only get worse.

    Thanks for posting the youtube video, i have watched it twice now, and to be honest still don't fully understand. I get the point of the dew point being more relative, but have trouble translating that to the situation i am in, and how to apply it, so it can identify where the route causes are.

    Furthermore my wife is a copd suffer and i use a cpap machine every night due to severe obstructive sleep apnea, i'm also asthmatic, thus added need to nip this in the bud before the plummeting outdoor temperatures arrive. We really suffered last winter and don't think we could cope through that again.
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 6th Oct 17, 11:58 AM
    • 3,844 Posts
    • 2,916 Thanks
    saintscouple
    • #7
    • 6th Oct 17, 11:58 AM
    • #7
    • 6th Oct 17, 11:58 AM
    Yeah with the breathing we would understand that if it was just our bedroom having the issues, but it's both, and we found this morning the kitchen window has joined in as well
    Also i wonder if i would contribute to moist air at night, as with my cpap i wear full face mask, perhaps it's actually worse?
    We are using a squeegee on the windows in the morning to clear what we can, if only to avoid water damage to the wooden window sill.

    Thanks
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam5; 12-10-2017 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Quoting deleted post
    • SuzieSue
    • By SuzieSue 6th Oct 17, 1:50 PM
    • 3,698 Posts
    • 3,985 Thanks
    SuzieSue
    • #8
    • 6th Oct 17, 1:50 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Oct 17, 1:50 PM
    It is going to cost you a fortune if you have the heating on at night. Most people turn their heating off at night and mine only comes on if the temperature inside the house falls below 10 degrees but I don't have a problem with condensation.

    I really don't think that the HA meant that you had to keep the same temperature 24 hours a day - that is ridiculously wasteful and will cost much more than running a dehumidfier.
    • TheCyclingProgrammer
    • By TheCyclingProgrammer 6th Oct 17, 2:12 PM
    • 2,902 Posts
    • 1,658 Thanks
    TheCyclingProgrammer
    • #9
    • 6th Oct 17, 2:12 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Oct 17, 2:12 PM
    At 86% RH at 19.5C indoors you're always going to have an issue with condensation and probably other longer term damp issues (mould on walls etc.) - that's very, very high.

    For context, we get condensation on our bedroom window from around this time of year until early Spring overnight and that's with an internal temperature similar to yours and RH of around 65%. Our house RH averages around 50-60% at this time of year, sometimes lower, which is a perfectly acceptable level however you breathe out a lot of moisture over the night and combined with our 13 year old glazing, this is enough to create some condensation on the window panes as their temperature drops. Additionally our bedroom wall is insulated meaning the window is basically a large cold spot on the wall. At its worst we the whole window would be covered.

    We have reduced the problem (but not completely eliminated it) by using a decent dehumidifier. We put it on for a few hours in the evening (either on the landing or in our bedroom) and occasionally a few leave it on for a few hours after we go to bed. As a result we only get a small amount of condensation on the window (as opposed to the whole window as before) and this can either be wiped down or we simply turn the dehumidifier on again in the morning and it disappears quickly.

    You really have to work on getting the humidity in your house down and eliminating the cause of the high humidity in the first place or you'll never get rid of the problem, even with the best glazing in the world.

    I also agree with others about your heating over night - its really odd to turn the heating *up* when you go to bed. This is a waste of energy. We have our heating set at 20.5C during the day and then our thermostat drops down to 17C from 11pm. Our house temperature doesn't generally drop more than a few degrees overnight so the heating very rarely comes on even in the coldest months. Having the bedrooms around 18-19C is much more comfortable.
    • Grenage
    • By Grenage 6th Oct 17, 2:36 PM
    • 1,324 Posts
    • 1,254 Thanks
    Grenage
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Karcher-Wv2-Handheld-2nd-Generation-Home-Car-Window-Vacuum/1437394421?iid=352011115666
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 6th Oct 17, 3:10 PM
    • 3,844 Posts
    • 2,916 Thanks
    saintscouple
    Thank you,

    I have opened the windows slightly ajar on the latch which had dropped the humidity reading somewhat, although the rise in temperature could also be a contributing factor.

    I have also taken a reading prior and after a shower with the bathroom door closed which showed no increase in humidity, which I assume means the fan is working fine as it is.

    I have adjusted our thermostat settings to the same 20.5c and to go down to 17c when we go to bed.

    These are the readings i have taken today, i have just taken receipt of another hygrometer which i will place in the main bedroom, so i can compare readings.



    So i'm guessing i should be really looking at dehumidifier recommendations to try and keep the humidity at a suitable level. If anyone has any recommendations on what type is best for running in a bedroom / landing?

    Thank you for for your help thus far in trying to understand this.
    • TheCyclingProgrammer
    • By TheCyclingProgrammer 6th Oct 17, 3:36 PM
    • 2,902 Posts
    • 1,658 Thanks
    TheCyclingProgrammer
    Your humidity levels taken this afternoon seem perfectly reasonable, presumably as a result of ventilation.

    You need to keep an eye on it over several days to see if you can figure out what's causing the huge jump. Anything over 70% for a long period of time is cause for concern. The only time I ever see RH levels like that indoors are in late Summer when it's very humid outside (and so opening the windows doesn't help) but as it's only short term and during the day it doesn't cause any problems.

    Also your indoor temperatures seem a bit high considering the outside temperature and your thermostat temperature. Do you have a TRV in the spare room? If so I'd turn it down a notch.
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 6th Oct 17, 4:28 PM
    • 3,844 Posts
    • 2,916 Thanks
    saintscouple
    Your humidity levels taken this afternoon seem perfectly reasonable, presumably as a result of ventilation.

    You need to keep an eye on it over several days to see if you can figure out what's causing the huge jump. Anything over 70% for a long period of time is cause for concern. The only time I ever see RH levels like that indoors are in late Summer when it's very humid outside (and so opening the windows doesn't help) but as it's only short term and during the day it doesn't cause any problems.

    Also your indoor temperatures seem a bit high considering the outside temperature and your thermostat temperature. Do you have a TRV in the spare room? If so I'd turn it down a notch.
    Originally posted by TheCyclingProgrammer
    Thank you, yes just checked and the TRV has set to the highest 5, i've bought this down to 3.
    Do you think it would best to leave the windows ajar as they are now, or close them when we go to bed and just leave the ventilation to the trickle vents?
    The wife sleep with a fan on, so leaving them slightly open wouldn't be problem.

    Thank you again
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 7th Oct 17, 11:18 AM
    • 3,844 Posts
    • 2,916 Thanks
    saintscouple
    Well woke to no condensation on the windows this morning, but it was warmer than the night before and also today we have had rain and it's very damp outside, still haven't changed anything from yesterday, windows still ajar. Temperature coming down in the bedroom, perhaps a result of turning the TRV down a couple of notches. Don't know if that's good or not, but the condensor tumble dryer will be going on in that room shortly.... having the window ajar should help with that though, we will see.
    Perhaps it's worth noting the spare bedroom is west facing, the main bedroom, east.

    Last edited by saintscouple; 07-10-2017 at 11:21 AM.
    • shortcrust
    • By shortcrust 7th Oct 17, 11:39 AM
    • 1,451 Posts
    • 1,911 Thanks
    shortcrust
    I'm as obsessed as you about this stuff!

    You might want to get one of these or similar:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01NBVV2ZI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    It shows dew point as well as RH%. Dew point doesn't change with temperature so you can tell if you're really getting rid of moisture as opposed to just heating the air. The readings update instantly rather than taking a few mins like the other meters you've got. This means it's helpful for identifying 'wet spots' as in a damp wall, leaking window - I think the readings are a bit odd in your spare bedroom and I wonder if water is getting in from somewhere.

    I've got one of these dehumidifiers:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0194MCV0G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    It was a godsend a few days back when the air outside was damp and warm (i.e. no point opening windows!). I sometimes also use it in my bathroom for an hour after use if it's really cold outside and I don't want to open a window.
    • TheCyclingProgrammer
    • By TheCyclingProgrammer 7th Oct 17, 11:54 AM
    • 2,902 Posts
    • 1,658 Thanks
    TheCyclingProgrammer
    The readings in your master bedroom seem fine to me.

    There’s definitely something odd going on in your spare bedroom that is causing the RH to get too high.
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 7th Oct 17, 3:39 PM
    • 3,844 Posts
    • 2,916 Thanks
    saintscouple
    Thank you both, I'll keep the readings going for a week and then present them to the housing for them to make their investigations. Here's the latest with the tumble having been on a couple of hours....



    I think the main bedroom is pretty constant, a little rise in temp and humidity from tumble being on just across the hall in the spare room is to be expected.
    But the spare room's humidity levels have dropped with the tumble on....... wasn't expecting that.
    • TheCyclingProgrammer
    • By TheCyclingProgrammer 7th Oct 17, 6:19 PM
    • 2,902 Posts
    • 1,658 Thanks
    TheCyclingProgrammer
    The RH has dropped because the temperature has increased. You would need to work out the absolute humidity to see if it has changed.
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 8th Oct 17, 5:06 AM
    • 3,844 Posts
    • 2,916 Thanks
    saintscouple
    I'm as obsessed as you about this stuff!

    You might want to get one of these or similar:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01NBVV2ZI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    It shows dew point as well as RH%. Dew point doesn't change with temperature so you can tell if you're really getting rid of moisture as opposed to just heating the air. The readings update instantly rather than taking a few mins like the other meters you've got. This means it's helpful for identifying 'wet spots' as in a damp wall, leaking window - I think the readings are a bit odd in your spare bedroom and I wonder if water is getting in from somewhere.

    I've got one of these dehumidifiers:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0194MCV0G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    It was a godsend a few days back when the air outside was damp and warm (i.e. no point opening windows!). I sometimes also use it in my bathroom for an hour after use if it's really cold outside and I don't want to open a window.
    Originally posted by shortcrust
    I wake up at 4.30am to watch the F1 and part of my brain wakes up remember the many, many, many years ago when i went to technical college and had to calculate dew to work out the size of window needed for ventilation in a room...... now have to try and search that part of the brain that has the calculation formula.... or perhaps google is my friend.

    Ahh indeed it is.... http://www.dpcalc.org/

    I've started to look at what dehumidifiers are available preowned in my area, if i can find a cheap one that i can put on for a couple of hours in the morning / evening that may be a start and a help. I found if you buy a dehumidifier preowned, as long as it's working, you can sell for pretty much the same price you paid.
    Last edited by saintscouple; 08-10-2017 at 5:10 AM.
    • saintscouple
    • By saintscouple 8th Oct 17, 7:20 AM
    • 3,844 Posts
    • 2,916 Thanks
    saintscouple
    Just come across an article https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/dehumidifier-or-piv-system.474384/ where it mentions a permanent solution by installing a PIV unit, something like this, www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01MTP2LQW
    Anyone read or considered one of these?
    The bloke from housing mentioned this system when looking at the condensation issues last year.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,625Posts Today

7,385Users online

Martin's Twitter