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    • sailpete
    • By sailpete 5th Oct 17, 2:34 PM
    • 4Posts
    • 0Thanks
    sailpete
    ESA(CB) help
    • #1
    • 5th Oct 17, 2:34 PM
    ESA(CB) help 5th Oct 17 at 2:34 PM
    Any help appreciated please.

    I started getting ESA (CB) support last year and was placed in the support group. After 9 months I started to get back to some permitted work. In May I informed the ESA helpline that I would be increasing my hours worked meaning I no longer qualified for ESA under the permitted work limits. Pretty much immediately after increasing work, I realised I was not ready and so called them back to re-establish my ESA payments just one week after my previous call.

    Since then I have been battling with the DWP to get back onto ESA (CB) support. They demanded I start a new claim, which they then silently closed. After hearing nothing for a while I chased them and they now say I'm in a UC area so are not interested in me. The UC guys are saying as I don't qualify for IR support, I need to submit a new style ESA (CB) claim.

    Every time I called the ESA helpline I came away weary and despondent. So considerable time has passed and I'm feeling pretty exhausted with it all.

    Any help is much appreciated to contact the right department and get the entitled support.

    Many thanks
Page 1
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 5th Oct 17, 2:45 PM
    • 4,248 Posts
    • 4,427 Thanks
    TELLIT01
    • #2
    • 5th Oct 17, 2:45 PM
    • #2
    • 5th Oct 17, 2:45 PM
    ESA are wrong in the way they have acted. If you asked to reopen the claim after just one week your claim links and you should have been put back into the position you were prior to closing the claim i.e. straight back into the Support Group.
    In a situation like this I would get straight onto your MP. Explain the situation to them and I will be amazed if things aren't sorted in a very short time.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 5th Oct 17, 8:47 PM
    • 3,022 Posts
    • 1,836 Thanks
    epitome
    • #3
    • 5th Oct 17, 8:47 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Oct 17, 8:47 PM
    In this situation, where you have worked 16 hours or more, your claim has to close. It is possible to challenge the procedures that were taken to close your ESA claim (for example you would have to tell me exactly what was said on that first call and whether you agreed to your claim closing, or what exactly it was that you declared to the ESA on that call about how many hours you have worked or are going to work..etc) but if you did work 16 hours or more in a week then ESA would have been correct to have closed your claim.
    And you would not be sucessful in challenging them on it.

    1. Did you actually make the New Claim to ESA Conts as you were instructed to do? What date did you make the claim by phone? Were you sent a claim statement?

    2. Are you saying that after you made the New Claim they silently closed your new claim to ESA? When did you find this out?

    3. Did they not then tell you to claim ESA Conts New Style?

    4. Did you claim ESA Conts New Style...What dare did you amke the claim?

    5 What happened to your clam for ESA Conts New Style.

    6 What is the name of your local Jobcentre ? i.e. town


    6.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 5th Oct 17, 10:09 PM
    • 1,583 Posts
    • 1,684 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    • #4
    • 5th Oct 17, 10:09 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Oct 17, 10:09 PM
    I would agree with Tellit01.
    There is a 12 week ESA linking rule which enables a reclaim to be linked to your old claim, so you do not need to start a completely new claim.
    Here is a bit of info
    https://benefitsandwork.co.uk/forum?view=topic&catid=10&id=103777
    This dates back a couple of years but AFAIK the 12 week linking rule is still in place.

    Worth:
    a) googling to see if you can find the ESA regulations to quote to the DWP (Sorry I haven't found it yet).
    b) getting advice from your local CAB
    c) as per Tellit01 - involving your MP
    d) If the CAB / googling / another forum poster can find the relevant Reg; then put in a complaint. (As the dispute resolution manager should be able to correct an error).

    Do you have an ESA decision letter refusing a reclaim you could challenge and then appeal?
    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/challenging-an-esa-decision/
    • sailpete
    • By sailpete 6th Oct 17, 12:01 AM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    sailpete
    • #5
    • 6th Oct 17, 12:01 AM
    • #5
    • 6th Oct 17, 12:01 AM
    In this situation, where you have worked 16 hours or more, your claim has to close. It is possible to challenge the procedures that were taken to close your ESA claim (for example you would have to tell me exactly what was said on that first call and whether you agreed to your claim closing, or what exactly it was that you declared to the ESA on that call about how many hours you have worked or are going to work..etc) but if you did work 16 hours or more in a week then ESA would have been correct to have closed your claim.
    Originally posted by epitome
    I'm self employed and received more than the permitted weekly earnings with this brief 2 day period of work. However, on the initial call, I was told that if things changed in the following 12 weeks, that my claim would be re-instated. The advisor definitely did not say the claim would be closed and a new claim would be required. This call was on 8th May.

    And you would not be sucessful in challenging them on it.

    1. Did you actually make the New Claim to ESA Conts as you were instructed to do? What date did you make the claim by phone? Were you sent a claim statement?
    I made a new claim by phone on 15 or 16th May though argued the need for a new claim was contrary to the information I'd been given the week before. This fell on deaf ears. I was sent a new customer statement which had a number of errors. Due to ongoing hospital visits and the long time to get through to person on the ESA helpline, it took a while before I spoke with someone to correct the mistakes. I asked for a new customer statement but never received one. They also asked for some evidence of some travel dates from over a year previously and this took a while for me to find. I submitted these just before the 19th June deadline they'd give me.
    2. Are you saying that after you made the New Claim they silently closed your new claim to ESA? When did you find this out?
    Yes exactly. I found this out when I chased them by phone in early July. I can't find my paperwork with the exact date on at the moment. I asked for a letter explaining why they had closed the claim without any communication. I never received anything and I recall them saying they would not send anything as by now my area was under UC and they were no longer interested in talking to me.
    3. Did they not then tell you to claim ESA Conts New Style?
    They never used those words. Effectively they just said goodbye and speak with UC.
    4. Did you claim ESA Conts New Style...What dare did you amke the claim?
    No, because by then I had started some light work again, in excess of the permitted earnings and so my medical certificate had finished before the date at that time. This meant I could not complete the claim. Since then, I have been back to hospital and had further time where I have been unable to work and only found out about new style ESA conts today. I have not submitted a claim via UC because I was told I would not qualify because they did not provide CB benefits.
    5 What happened to your clam for ESA Conts New Style.

    6 What is the name of your local Jobcentre ? i.e. town
    Salisbury

    Thanks for your help above. Let me know if you need more information.
    • sailpete
    • By sailpete 6th Oct 17, 12:13 AM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    sailpete
    • #6
    • 6th Oct 17, 12:13 AM
    • #6
    • 6th Oct 17, 12:13 AM
    I would agree with Tellit01.
    There is a 12 week ESA linking rule which enables a reclaim to be linked to your old claim, so you do not need to start a completely new claim.
    Here is a bit of info
    benefitsandwork.co.uk/forum?view=topic&catid=10&id=103777
    This dates back a couple of years but AFAIK the 12 week linking rule is still in place.
    Originally posted by Alice Holt
    Thanks I will look into this.
    Worth:
    a) googling to see if you can find the ESA regulations to quote to the DWP (Sorry I haven't found it yet).
    b) getting advice from your local CAB
    c) as per Tellit01 - involving your MP
    d) If the CAB / googling / another forum poster can find the relevant Reg; then put in a complaint. (As the dispute resolution manager should be able to correct an error).
    I have spoken with CAB and whilst they were able to provide some advice it seemed there was a limit to what they could do. I subsequently think I probably underestimated the knowledge and help they could provide.
    Do you have an ESA decision letter refusing a reclaim you could challenge and then appeal?
    citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/employment-and-support-allowance/while-youre-getting-esa/challenging-an-esa-decision/
    No, unfortunately not. See my reply to epitome above. However, I will look at the link.

    Thanks for you help.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 6th Oct 17, 9:26 PM
    • 3,022 Posts
    • 1,836 Thanks
    epitome
    • #7
    • 6th Oct 17, 9:26 PM
    • #7
    • 6th Oct 17, 9:26 PM
    You were obviously on ESA C before all this happened...and you say in the Support Group. I will refer to this as 'claim 1'.

    What date was 'claim 1' claimed from?

    Before 'claim 1'.... you must have been working...what date did you stop working before 'claim 1' started?

    What date did 'claim 1' finish..... (pay you up until)?

    Have you paid all your your national insurance up to 5th April 2016? If not, you had better do this. ASAP. (before making a claim to ESA C New Style)

    I'm self employed and received more than the permitted weekly earnings with this brief 2 day period of work. However, on the initial call, I was told that if things changed in the following 12 weeks, that my claim would be re-instated. The advisor definitely did not say the claim would be closed and a new claim would be required. This call was on 8th May.
    Originally posted by sailpete
    All of the below in blue text is entirely optional, it is only if you want to have whatever evidence you can get from DWP...
    Next time you call ESA Enquiry line, you can ask the enquiry agent to look in your call history and ask them to identify and confirm there was an "inbound" call from you on the 8th May 2017 (do this before you tell them what you want). And the other call on 15/05/17. When they say they have found them, ask them to give you the "Call I.D. numbers" it will be a series of numbers possibly a few letters, about this big, 567867983. Note them down. Then ask the agent to send a handover to ESA Benefit Centre, requesting an "audio copy of both calls to be sent to you" make sure the handover gives the call I.D. No.s The enquiry agent may try to fob you off telling you to make such a request in writing (and DWP guidance does state it is to be requested in writing), however, I happen to know:
    a) The DWP data control people are very happy to accept such requests by phone, regardless what guidance says.
    b) The person you will be speaking to is not allowed to refuse your insistance that a handover is sent with your request.

    **You should also request in the same handover "I request a Written Statement of Reasons" is sent to me as to why my ESA claim was closed from 08/05/2017(?)

    *You should also ask that the handover is sent with a request for a confirmation call back to you. So you know both your requests are going to be done. If you don't get the call back phone again after 24 hours, to tell them you did not get the call and you insist, if you have to, on getting that call.

    *And you should request the person who sends the handover to put what you have requested into a note, both in CAM(cam) and in JSAPS (jay-saps), two identical notes, two different sytsems.


    I will explain....where I am going with this... You did not specifically request or agree that your ESA claim to be closed from 08/05/17 and the person you were speaking to did not tell you "I am going to close your claim from 08/05/17" .... This is a long shot, but if you only worked 1 week earning more than Permitted Work Limit, you could ask for a Mandatory Reconsideration that your claim should have been sent to a Decision Maker to decide if the claim had to close or could stay open, especially as after that 1 week your earnings dropped aswell.

    Can you clarify after the 1 week, did you stop work all together or reduce your hours/earnings to what they were before?

    You will need some evidence of your earnings, running up to the week where it was high, the week itself, and the weeks after that.

    If you don't want to do the blue text bit above....then all you need to do starts here:
    If you have your earnings evidence now,.... when you are phoning ESA on Monday to ask for the above, ask them to book you an appointment at local jobcentre (to have your Man Recon & evidence scanned) , you write a Mandatory Reconsideration request .... something like:

    I wish to request a Mandatory Reconsideration against the decision to close my ESA from 08/05/17 (or whatever)

    This request is late because I have been trying to make a new claim for the last few months, as instructed by DWP, and no-one ever told me I could challenge the decision to close my claim, until now.

    I phoned ESA on 08/05/17 to inform you that my earnings had increased, I did not know how long this would last for. I did not request my ESA to be closed. I was not told that my ESA was being closed. I believe that the correct process has not been followed by your department. I believe I should have been requested to provide evidence of hours worked and earnings, and that this evidence should have been sent to a Decision Maker to determine if my ESA should be closed or been allowed to continue. I called back to your department on 15/05/17 to inform you that my earnings were £....... again. As my earnings were only high for 1 week, I would like it to be considered that my claim could have been allowed to continue. I enclose evidence of my hours/earnings for the period 08/04/17 - onwards
    . Please also note I also started working/earning more again from 22/07/17(or whatever), and I have also enclosed evidence of this for a decision to be also made on this second period. (so you would include more of your accounts for a longer period)

    The rest I will continue in a new post below.
    Last edited by epitome; 07-10-2017 at 2:17 PM.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 6th Oct 17, 9:46 PM
    • 3,022 Posts
    • 1,836 Thanks
    epitome
    • #8
    • 6th Oct 17, 9:46 PM
    • #8
    • 6th Oct 17, 9:46 PM
    I made a new claim by phone on 15 or 16th May <snip> I was sent a new customer statement which had a number of errors. Due to ongoing hospital visits and the long time to get through to person on the ESA helpline, it took a while before I spoke with someone to correct the mistakes. I asked for a new customer statement but never received one. They also asked for some evidence of some travel dates from over a year previously and this took a while for me to find. I submitted these just before the 19th June deadline they'd give me.

    Yes exactly. I found this out when I chased them by phone in early July. I can't find my paperwork with the exact date on at the moment. I asked for a letter explaining why they had closed the claim without any communication. I never received anything and I recall them saying they would not send anything as by now my area was under UC and they were no longer interested in talking to me.
    Originally posted by sailpete
    Similar to my last post, we will call this claim 'claim 2'.

    Because this is an entirely different subject to 'claim 1' I recommend that you make 2 phone calls to ESA Enquiries, the first call, as above for 'claim 1' with requested handover for 'claim 1'. The second call for 'claim 2'. However, if you do not do the blue text bit in the first post, then you could do this on a single call, you would ask for a Jobcentre Appointment to scan your evidence and your Mand Recon letter for 'claim 1'...and you can request the call back handover as shown below...regarding 'claim 2'.

    Request a handover call back from ESA Benefit Centre, "New Claims",
    Asking that you want to be told why the claim you made on 16/05/17 was never processed, or if it was why it was closed....

    Do not allow yourself to be fobbed off, by them saying you already have requested a call back... You tell them this is an entirely different subject to a the New Claims Department and you insist that you want to speak to the New Claims Department.

    When they tell you what happened... if you don't like what you hear, ask them to send you a Written Statement of Reasons as to why 'claim 2' was never processed or was closed.


    No, because by then I had started some light work again, in excess of the permitted earnings and so my medical certificate had finished before the date at that time. This meant I could not complete the claim. Since then, I have been back to hospital and had further time where I have been unable to work and only found out about new style ESA conts today. I have not submitted a claim via UC because I was told I would not qualify because they did not provide CB benefits
    In this regard, you need to phone UC helpline on Monday and ask for a New claim to ESA Conts New Style, backdated to the date you were last below the permitted work limits, but no more than 3 months backdating. Then wait to see if you qualify, based on what you wrote so far, you may or may not qualify.
    Last edited by epitome; 07-10-2017 at 12:13 PM.
    • Bananas123
    • By Bananas123 7th Oct 17, 2:38 AM
    • 293 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    Bananas123
    • #9
    • 7th Oct 17, 2:38 AM
    • #9
    • 7th Oct 17, 2:38 AM
    hello,
    Every time I called the ESA helpline I came away weary and despondent. So considerable time has passed and I'm feeling pretty exhausted with it all.
    Originally posted by sailpete
    the call people pull up your details on the computer and then "relay information to their ability" kind of thing.... they can make mistakes and cause confusion, and also presumably have to talk to some pretty angry people day to day (many variables).

    theres supposed to be a 12-week link, so they are wrong..... it's law so people don't have to wait +13weeks to eat food etc... if they have no income.... again.

    -

    i think there should maybe only be a problem (cause by them, not you), if your contributions based had expired AT THE SAME TIME... coincidentally (some time in / after may ?) ...but even then they should have put you in IR-support group esa, anyway.

    ------------------

    there can be problems if you agree to close claim etc, BUT it's not your fault as evidenced here... so if they say "NO > because you did X", then they are simply being !!!!!!!s....

    ------------------

    i would ring them up @ ~8am or whenever it opens, and say "it says there is a 12 week linking rule in the esa regulations, but i tried to link my claim and it was rejected, please can you explain why or LINK MY CLAIM FOR ME ?"

    if they still say no, then ask to speak to "the manager" (on the basis it is written in the esa regulations / law), again "please link............"

    (you can shout at them if it is not linked, and maybe ask for their name)

    if it doesn't get linked, then, you will need a desicion notice or evidence of this, then you will probably have to appeal and wait for ages to get somebody to link it, like they should have in the first place.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3221694


    regards
    • epitome
    • By epitome 7th Oct 17, 11:57 AM
    • 3,022 Posts
    • 1,836 Thanks
    epitome
    Anyone who is saying in this thread that this is as simple as a 12 week link... is wrong...it is not that simple.

    EDIT to explain... If the area had already gone UC Full Service, a new ESA claim is not allowed.

    Other than that possible reason, we would need to know exactly what happened to the second claim,
    and the only way we can find out is if the OP phones and asks for a call back.

    Speculation before then is not helping.
    Last edited by epitome; 08-10-2017 at 6:21 PM.
    • Bananas123
    • By Bananas123 7th Oct 17, 3:31 PM
    • 293 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    Bananas123
    Twelve-week linking rule

    Any two periods of limited capacity for work that are separated by no more than 12 weeks are treated as a single period. If you are off sick or leave a job within 12 weeks of a previous ESA award you will go back onto your ESA at the same rate and terms as before.
    (from link i posted inc. dwp advice)

    > it sounds THAT simple ?

    if it was NOT, then people would potentially have to re-apply, and wait weeks and weeks with no income simply because they over-estimated their abilities (like mental health claimants etc).
    • epitome
    • By epitome 7th Oct 17, 4:00 PM
    • 3,022 Posts
    • 1,836 Thanks
    epitome
    > it sounds THAT simple ?

    if it was NOT, then people would potentially have to re-apply, and wait weeks and weeks with no income
    Originally posted by Bananas123
    Or claim UC or claim ESA CNS (through UC).

    There is no automatic right anymore to be allowed back onto ESA, whether within 12 weeks or not.
    • Bananas123
    • By Bananas123 8th Oct 17, 1:30 PM
    • 293 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    Bananas123
    There is no automatic right anymore to be allowed back onto ESA, whether within 12 weeks or not.
    Originally posted by epitome
    cite source so people know you are not talking nonsense.
    • bspm
    • By bspm 8th Oct 17, 3:10 PM
    • 445 Posts
    • 693 Thanks
    bspm
    cite source so people know you are not talking nonsense.
    Originally posted by Bananas123
    Maybe you are new but I noticed a condescending 'I know what I am talking about so don't question me' attitude months ago.

    Epitome .......If you say that a person or thing is the epitome of something, you are emphasising that they are the best possible example of a particular type of person or thing.

    Let us be honest here, nearly everyone working for the DWP knows !!!!!! all about UC or ESA new style.

    It's a minefield.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 8th Oct 17, 3:18 PM
    • 3,022 Posts
    • 1,836 Thanks
    epitome
    Have you taken me off ignore?
    • Bananas123
    • By Bananas123 8th Oct 17, 3:26 PM
    • 293 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    Bananas123
    Maybe you are new but I noticed a condescending 'I know what I am talking about so don't question me' attitude months ago.
    Originally posted by bspm
    i don't know if that is for me ? and i don't understand as you refer to me (if so) as "new" but then say "months ago" (which doesn't make sense) ("months ago is not new")

    if it was at me, i am annoyed because i believe him to be wrong, and when questioned he has wormed out completely, and now even to the point is posting about website settings ? (nothing to do with the thread / discussion / help etc)

    the OP is enquiring to get benefit re-instated, i have been trying to help him, epitome is seemingly only interested in massaging his own ego and avoiding anything that suggests he may be wrong.
    • Bananas123
    • By Bananas123 8th Oct 17, 3:31 PM
    • 293 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    Bananas123
    (please note that i have posted quotes explaining the 12 week link rule, and a link to a thread discussing the esa regulations and when epitome has been asked to provide details he states "no thanks" and starts talking about being ignored.... whilst being questioned directly)
    • IAmWales
    • By IAmWales 8th Oct 17, 3:45 PM
    • 1,841 Posts
    • 3,821 Thanks
    IAmWales
    Bananas, given their description I expect bspm is talking about epitome, not yourself.

    (Why does predictive text try to change bspm to bdsm? )
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 8th Oct 17, 3:54 PM
    • 1,758 Posts
    • 1,588 Thanks
    poppy12345
    i don't know if that is for me ? and i don't understand as you refer to me (if so) as "new" but then say "months ago" (which doesn't make sense) ("months ago is not new")

    if it was at me, i am annoyed because i believe him to be wrong, and when questioned he has wormed out completely, and now even to the point is posting about website settings ? (nothing to do with the thread / discussion / help etc)

    the OP is enquiring to get benefit re-instated, i have been trying to help him, epitome is seemingly only interested in massaging his own ego and avoiding anything that suggests he may be wrong.
    Originally posted by Bananas123
    I'm sorry but after your comment on another thread about someone enquiring about SDP and your advice being completely wrong, i know who i'm going to believe here.
    • Bananas123
    • By Bananas123 8th Oct 17, 4:07 PM
    • 293 Posts
    • 123 Thanks
    Bananas123
    I'm sorry but after your comment on another thread about someone enquiring about SDP and your advice being completely wrong, i know who i'm going to believe here.
    Originally posted by poppy12345
    again nothing to do with what the op was asking, no information provided, no information provided as to what you are talking about.

    --------------------------------

    good luck OP, i think the !!!!!!!! on the dwp phoneline just gave you mis-information like the dwp !!!!!!!!s here and you should have been returned onto your main-phase benefits.

    that's what the relavant information i read / posted here says anyway.

    the other !!!!!!!!s are saying different, but are providing no information to back up their claims, so i am led to believe the 12-week linking ESA REGULATION LAW is still applicable....
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