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  • FIRST POST
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 5th Oct 17, 11:29 AM
    • 18Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Quitto
    Parking charge on my own parking bay
    • #1
    • 5th Oct 17, 11:29 AM
    Parking charge on my own parking bay 5th Oct 17 at 11:29 AM
    Hi All, need some help dealing with private parking company and housing association to appeal or complain against parking charge issued for my car being parked in my own bay (I am a leaseholder of a flat and a parking space).

    I have written several times to housing association and PPC demanding the ticket to be cancelled on the grounds that I am a landowner. They claim the valid permit has not been displayed. It was displayed but expired by several months. There is nothing about permits in my lease agreement, however it has some generic "fits all situations" statement that can be used against me (I can post it if required).

    I find all this situation absurd and am not willing to pay anything to PPC for my parking space that cost me 10% of the property value when I purchased a flat.

    Could you please provide some advice how to deal with them? Shall I go straight to POPLA or deal with housing association and ignore the PPC?
Page 2
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 10th Oct 17, 9:25 AM
    • 33,482 Posts
    • 17,360 Thanks
    Quentin
    You look to be too late for POPLA.


    If so then your only way at present is to keep on to the HA to get it cancelled


    Otherwise you are in the debt collectors stage (see FAQ)


    Ignore everything except a LBCCA or Court Correspondence


    They have 6 years to commence legal action


    (If you do have a valid popla code then of course use it!)
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 10th Oct 17, 9:38 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    This is the response I got last week from PPC:

    In order for Car Parking Partnership to cancel this Parking Charge, we require evidence of your valid permit as proof that you did not break the terms and conditions stipulated on the signage.

    This Parking Charge has been placed on hold for 28 days to enable you to provide the evidence requested. If this information is not provided within 28 days, the appeal may well be rejected and a POPLA code provided.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 10th Oct 17, 9:46 AM
    • 33,482 Posts
    • 17,360 Thanks
    Quentin
    OK.


    Good.


    Await the code, construct your popla appeal and post it here for comments (still keep on at the HA as well)


    (All as you were advised in #6!!)
    Last edited by Quentin; 10-10-2017 at 9:49 AM.
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 10th Oct 17, 3:14 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    Sent another email to the housing association regarding my issue and got this response (extract):

    If you have received a parking fine you must contest this with the company whom you received it from. We have no association with parking enforcement teams and are not responsible for any fines. CPP can be contacted by xxxxxxxx.

    Leaseholders were all advised via sms on how to contact CPP and also through letter. It is not our responsibility to notify residents on renewing permits. Permits and all parking issues are to be raised via CPP.


    Are they suggesting they have no contract with CPP?
    Last edited by Quitto; 10-10-2017 at 3:40 PM.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Oct 17, 3:24 PM
    • 7,411 Posts
    • 6,458 Thanks
    The Deep
    send the HA a letter asking them if they contracted with the PPC.If so, ask fir a copy of the contract


    If they did, inform them that they are responsible for the PPC's actions in contract law. Ask them how they like them apples?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 10th Oct 17, 3:27 PM
    • 613 Posts
    • 1,123 Thanks
    safarmuk
    send the HA a letter asking them if they contracted with the PPC.If so, ask fir a copy of the contract
    +1 ... ask for the contract between the HA and the PPC. If the HA contracted the PPC then the PPC are the HA's agent and the HA will not be able to wash their hands of the actions of their agent unfortunately (for them).
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 10th Oct 17, 3:36 PM
    • 1,740 Posts
    • 2,842 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Spell it out for them that the PPC is their agent and they can't absolve themselves of responsibility if the PPC interferes with your rights or commits an act of trespass against your car/space. They'll reject your advances until they are backed into a corner. That's why I recommend tough LBCs which they can't ignore.
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 10th Oct 17, 3:41 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    Thank you all for your support, I have emailed HA and requested a copy of contract, will report back when they reply.
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 10th Oct 17, 4:11 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    They are very quick in responding today:

    We work with various contractors and should we need a contractor to manage or enforce or engage in some activity on a particular scheme, we advise via email accordingly.

    It is in your lease to:
    4.2 Comply with Regulations
    To comply with such reasonable regulations as the Landlord or the Superior
    Landlord may make from time to time relating to the orderly and proper use of the
    Common Parts and security of the Building and including (for the avoidance of
    doubt) regulations as to the manner of use of any car parking space or visitors car
    parking spaces and the nature of any vehicle which may be parked thereon

    As such, the parking regulations introduced were a direct result of complaints from leaseholders regarding illegal parking on site, and thus paying £30 a year for parking enforcement. This was in place to ensure 'orderly and proper use...as to the manner of use of any car parking space'.

    The Trust conducted a CPP management survey on whether to remove CPP, and based on records we hold from your response, you answered 'No'.

    Should you have any parking disputes, please ensure you contact CPP directly.


    In the above they refer to questionnaire they had about two months ago before I received the letter from CPP and realized the ticket from July was not cancelled (the rest of them were). I did reply with "No" stupidly thinking it offers some level of protection to bay owners. However, their response to questionnaire was: "We had a low response and as a result kept enforcement onsite".
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 10th Oct 17, 7:53 PM
    • 1,136 Posts
    • 1,165 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Reply back

    They can not create a regulation requiring you to contract with a third party
    They cannot create a regulation requiring you to pay any amount not within your lease , ie ground rent.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 11th Oct 17, 9:17 AM
    • 2,585 Posts
    • 3,847 Thanks
    fisherjim
    Do both, but is your POPLA code still valid?

    Though as yet CPP have never done court anyway.
    Last edited by fisherjim; 11-10-2017 at 9:20 AM.
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 11th Oct 17, 9:29 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    I'm yet to receive a code as I understand from CPP's response if I do not provide a "valid permit" or pay them in 28 days.
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 11th Oct 17, 10:20 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    I have requested a copy of contract between HA and CPP twice. I was advised to deal with CPP directly by HA and my requests were ignored.
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 11th Oct 17, 1:05 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    Here is HA's latest response:

    As advised on more than one occasion, we do not contest any penalties on behalf of residents.

    We have not created a regulation, but have introduced parking management due to residents request for enforcement on the scheme, due to the illegal parking concerns raised. Residents pay, £30 a year for the permit. All parking queries, appeals etc. are to be managed by CPP.

    You mention it was not within your lease, but your lease states as the leasee:

    "To comply with such reasonable regulations as the Landlord or the Superior Landlord may make from time to time relating to the orderly and proper use of the Common Parts and security of the Building and including regulations as to the manner of use of any car parking space or visitors car
    parking spaces and the nature of any vehicle which may be parked thereon". In this case, parking enforcement was introduced 'relating to the orderly and proper use of the common parts and security of the building'. We do not have in-house parking enforcements and so the majority of our sites are managed by CPP.

    CPP were always managing the scheme prior to gates being installed. Following the installation of the gate, residents had a high number of concerns with illegal parking on their bay and we instructed CPP to monitor leaseholder bays at residents request for enforcement.

    I advise for the last time, you are to liaise with CPP on any penalty received.

    I am sorry if my response is not what you expected, should you be unhappy with my response, you are welcome to submit a complaint to:xxxxxxxxxxxxx



    The lease states the following and I reminded them of that:

    “Common Parts” means those parts of the Building (whether or not within the
    structure of the Building) to be used in common by any of the Leaseholder, other
    tenants and occupiers of the Building, the Landlord, and those properly authorised
    or permitted by them to do so, and “Common Parts” includes (but without
    limitation) any atrium and entrance hall, corridors, lobbies, staircases, lavatories,
    access ways, passages, lifts, escalators, turntables, courtyards, external
    pavements, car park, and its ramp, service and loading areas, service road,
    gardens and other such amenities, but excluding any such parts as may be within
    the Premises.


    As a result I was told off by HA and have 2 ghost tickets from CPP and no POPLA codes (I have to wait for a POPLA code on July's ticket for 28 days and also there is another older ticket with my appeal, which they did not respond to for nearly 4 months). Could anyone please advise how justice can be achieved here?
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 12th Oct 17, 11:28 AM
    • 1,740 Posts
    • 2,842 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    So they are relying on this clause:

    4.2 Comply with Regulations
    To comply with such reasonable regulations as the Landlord or the Superior Landlord may make from time to time relating to the orderly and proper use of the Common Parts and security of the Building and including (for the avoidance of doubt) regulations as to the manner of use of any car parking space or visitors car parking spaces and the nature of any vehicle which may be parked thereon


    And you are saying that the right to make regulations relates, under the clause, only to "Common Parts" which is defined to specifically exclude "the Premises" - the "Premises" is defined as your property PLUS the parking space. The only potential fly in the ointment is that 4.2 is said to include the use of "any car parking space". Therefore the definitions are contradictory.


    Contra preferentem rule: any uncertainty will be resolved in favour of the person who did not draft the contract/the consumer. ie you.


    I'd write them a firm LBC to say that you will either issue proceedings, or apply to join them as a party to any proceedings issued by the PPC and make a counterclaim against them for breach of the quiet enjoyment covenant and trespass to your space and your vehicle. You can get the precedent from hairray's thread. Also a LBC to the PPC as well - again I put the precedent on hairray's thread. Those LBCs were tailored to hairray's lease, you will need to work on the letters to make sure you are referring to the correct parts of your lease and make sure that they correctly quote your lease. But they are a good starting point and I put a lot of work into them. In hairray's case he was given the bum's rush too until he wrote the LBCs when the pcns were magically cancelled.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 12th Oct 17, 11:42 AM
    • 7,411 Posts
    • 6,458 Thanks
    The Deep
    To comply with such reasonable regulations as the Landlord or the Superior Landlord may make from time to time relating to the orderly and proper use of the Common Parts


    I suspect that many here would not agree that the appointment of a PPC who goes on to target residents is reasonable. IMO it is NOT in the best interests of the residents.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 12th Oct 17, 12:31 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    To comply with such reasonable regulations as the Landlord or the Superior Landlord may make from time to time relating to the orderly and proper use of the Common Parts


    I suspect that many here would not agree that the appointment of a PPC who goes on to target residents is reasonable. IMO it is NOT in the best interests of the residents.
    Originally posted by The Deep
    That's exactly what I told them in my last email but it is unlikely that I will get any response.
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 12th Oct 17, 12:36 PM
    • 613 Posts
    • 1,123 Thanks
    safarmuk
    That's exactly what I told them in my last email but it is unlikely that I will get any response.
    You are not alone, most MA's we see on here have the exact same attitude and in most cases it takes the LBC letters that LOC123 talks about to make things happen.

    Remember, it works two ways, when organisations want to make you do or pay something what do they threaten ... LOC123's LBC letters do exactly the same thing just in reverse.
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