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    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 5th Oct 17, 11:29 AM
    • 18Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Quitto
    Parking charge on my own parking bay
    • #1
    • 5th Oct 17, 11:29 AM
    Parking charge on my own parking bay 5th Oct 17 at 11:29 AM
    Hi All, need some help dealing with private parking company and housing association to appeal or complain against parking charge issued for my car being parked in my own bay (I am a leaseholder of a flat and a parking space).

    I have written several times to housing association and PPC demanding the ticket to be cancelled on the grounds that I am a landowner. They claim the valid permit has not been displayed. It was displayed but expired by several months. There is nothing about permits in my lease agreement, however it has some generic "fits all situations" statement that can be used against me (I can post it if required).

    I find all this situation absurd and am not willing to pay anything to PPC for my parking space that cost me 10% of the property value when I purchased a flat.

    Could you please provide some advice how to deal with them? Shall I go straight to POPLA or deal with housing association and ignore the PPC?
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 5th Oct 17, 11:48 AM
    • 33,473 Posts
    • 17,354 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #2
    • 5th Oct 17, 11:48 AM
    • #2
    • 5th Oct 17, 11:48 AM
    First do as everyone is politely asked to do before starting a new thread


    Read up on this in the newbies faq thread near the top of the forum


    There you will see advice to do both!


    Then read up on own space threads till you understand the game you are involved in
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 5th Oct 17, 11:51 AM
    • 613 Posts
    • 1,123 Thanks
    safarmuk
    • #3
    • 5th Oct 17, 11:51 AM
    • #3
    • 5th Oct 17, 11:51 AM
    1. What PPC are you dealing with?
    2. What date did you receive your ticket?
    3. Have you appealed to the PPC using the template in the Newbies thread via the timelines advised (if your PPC is a member of the BPA that is the way you get your POPLA code)
    4. Are other residents experiencing these problems in your estate?
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 5th Oct 17, 1:17 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    • #4
    • 5th Oct 17, 1:17 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Oct 17, 1:17 PM
    Thanks Quentin, I did read plenty of posts and I am still reading. I did not follow the recommendations here, as I did not expect it to be such a painful process for landowners. The notice that was issued is several months old, and I have written to PPC several times through appeal form explaining that I am the owner of the bay.
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 5th Oct 17, 1:20 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    • #5
    • 5th Oct 17, 1:20 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Oct 17, 1:20 PM
    1. What PPC are you dealing with?
    2. What date did you receive your ticket?
    3. Have you appealed to the PPC using the template in the Newbies thread via the timelines advised (if your PPC is a member of the BPA that is the way you get your POPLA code)
    4. Are other residents experiencing these problems in your estate?
    Originally posted by safarmuk
    1. CPP
    2. Several months ago, following by several letters.
    3. No, I have not, I did write to them through their "appeal form" explaining the ownership of the bay however. They keep asking for "valid permit" or offering POPLA number.
    4. Yes. Some of them have paid the ticket, some refused.

    Thank you!
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 5th Oct 17, 1:37 PM
    • 613 Posts
    • 1,123 Thanks
    safarmuk
    • #6
    • 5th Oct 17, 1:37 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Oct 17, 1:37 PM
    1) Car Parking Partnership - BPA member so at least POPLA is indeed available to you
    2) Ideally you can try and see this off at POPLA and then deal with the Housing Association
    3) I would take the POPLA code and then construct a winning appeal, if you win this is then done and dusted and you can turn your attention to bringing the Housing Association into line - with the back up of a POPLA appeal success in your back pocket
    4) You need to round them up and complain as a group to the Housing Association. They (probably) contracted the PPC and therefore they should have control over them and should cancel tickets for genuine, authorised users of the car park

    The reason CPP are bleating about a permit is because they - like most PPCs - believe the only contract in place is the contract as specified on the signs they have erected and you have breached that contract by not displaying a permit. They have conveniently forgotten that:
    a) There is a pre-existing contract (the lease) between you and the landowner that (hopefully) defines your right to park clearly and;
    b) They are there to deter unauthorised car parking not authorised car parking (e.g. residents).
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 5th Oct 17, 1:54 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    • #7
    • 5th Oct 17, 1:54 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Oct 17, 1:54 PM
    Thank you! Do you think the template in the Coupon-mad's post (I cannot post a link unfortunately) is applicable to my case? Can I use that and submit as my POPLA appeal?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 5th Oct 17, 2:06 PM
    • 16,865 Posts
    • 20,943 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 5th Oct 17, 2:06 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Oct 17, 2:06 PM
    unless you have a valid popla code then you cannot appeal to popla

    so any historical ticket will not have a popla option as it will have expired long ago

    if you do get a pcn , appeal it and get a popla code, post #3 of her NEWBIES thread deals with popla appeals
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 5th Oct 17, 2:06 PM
    • 1,739 Posts
    • 2,837 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    • #9
    • 5th Oct 17, 2:06 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Oct 17, 2:06 PM
    If you own your space under your lease and have exclusive rights in relation to it, then unless there's a clause in your lease which permits the introduction of new regulations concerning, inter alia, the car parking space, nobody has the power to introduce rules about how you can use it beyond those in the lease.


    Even if there is such a clause which covers parking regulations, it will most certainly not allow the freeholder to impose upon you a contractual relationship with a 3rd party pursuant to which the 3rd party can recover charges - the only money that can be obtained from you pursuant to your lease is ground rent/service charge.


    You need to get a copy of your lease.




    I am assuming that the introduction of the PPC was AFTER you had bought your leasehold title.


    How was the introduction of parking regs communicated to you? How did you get your original permit? Were you supposed to have renewed it or were they supposed to provide you with a new one? Were you told how to get a new one? Was it drawn to your attention that it would expire, or was this obvious?


    You need to think this through logically.
    Read hairray's thread where I drafted LBCs to be sent to the freeholder, the management company and the parking company threatening proceedings against them for damages for trespass, breach of the covenant of quiet enjoyment and DPA breaches. You need to look at your lease terms as well. If you haven't got a copy of your lease, you can get it from the solicitor who did your conveyancing, or from Land Registry (latter will charge a fee of c.£15)
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 5th Oct 17, 2:48 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    If you own your space under your lease and have exclusive rights in relation to it, then unless there's a clause in your lease which permits the introduction of new regulations concerning, inter alia, the car parking space, nobody has the power to introduce rules about how you can use it beyond those in the lease....
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    Yes, I own my space, as per lease agreement and land registry entry. There is nothing in my lease about parking permits, however there is a generic clause you are referring to. The housing association employed the CPP, I believe around the same time or shortly after the lease was signed. I do have a hard copy of my lease.

    All communication was done via mail from HA, first permit was issued by HA free of charge, after they informed that if the permit is not renewed the bay will not be monitored, I renewed the permit. After that there were no reminders or explanation as to how and if we need to renew a permit, so it is obviously lapsed. Based on that communication I was under impression that CPP are no longer monitor my bay if I do not renew. To my surprise they issued me a ticket. It seems like they are blackmailing and force us to purchase their permit for the land we own (under lease).
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 5th Oct 17, 3:13 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    after they informed that if the permit is not renewed the bay will not be monitored
    I don't suppose you kept that?


    a generic clause
    Can you post the clause here for us to see?
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 6th Oct 17, 10:55 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    after they informed that if the permit is not renewed the bay will not be monitored
    I don't suppose you kept that?


    a generic clause
    Can you post the clause here for us to see?
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    I should have that letter somewhere. I will dig the clause out and post it when I get home.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 6th Oct 17, 11:03 AM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    That letter will be dynamite, try to find it and keep it very safe when you do
    When you eventually get a Letter Before Claim, send it to them and invite them to withdraw.
    They will argue that it was a once-only offer to opt out and once you'd opted in, you were in - but that's not what it says and uncertainty is resolved in favour of the consumer/against the person who wrote the contract under the contra preferentem rule.
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 6th Oct 17, 11:44 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    The lease states the following:

    The Premises
    (Plot No XXX) on the XXX floor of the Building
    shown edged red on the attached plan and the parking space edge red on the
    attached parking space plan.

    Parking Permits
    The Leaseholder acknowledges the terms of the S106 Agreement and will not make
    any application for a parking permit in breach of paragraph 6 of the Third Schedule
    thereto nor raise any objection thereto.

    Schedule 3
    Easements, Rights and Privileges

    6. The benefit of the rights appurtenant to the Landord’s title so far as these are
    intended to benefit the Premises.

    Quiet enjoyment
    That the Leaseholder paying the rents reserved by this Lease and performing and
    observing the covenants contained in this Lease may peaceably enjoy the Premises
    during the Term without any lawful interruption by the Landlord or any person
    rightfully claiming under or in trust for it.

    Comply with Regulations
    To comply with such reasonable regulations as the Landlord or the Superior
    Landlord may make from time to time relating to the orderly and proper use of the
    Common Parts and security of the Building and including (for the avoidance of
    doubt) regulations as to the manner of use of any car parking space or visitors car
    parking spaces and the nature of any vehicle which may be parked thereon.

    Mutual Covenants
    Not to park or to suffer or permit to be parked upon any parking space
    allocated to the Premises from time to time any vehicle other than a
    private motor car or such other motor vehicle as may be first approved in
    writing by the Landlord acting in its absolute discretion

    Not to park or to permit or suffer any occupier of the Premises to park any
    motor vehicle on the Visitors Parking Spaces (if any) the same being
    intended for use by visitors only.

    Exceptions and Reservations
    The right for the Landlord at any time upon reasonable notice to temporarily
    suspend or revoke the allocation of a parking space for the purpose of repair to any
    part of the adjoining road or for any reasonable other purpose.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 6th Oct 17, 11:52 AM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    Comply with Regulations
    To comply with such reasonable regulations as the Landlord or the Superior
    Landlord may make from time to time relating to the orderly and proper use of the
    Common Parts and security of the Building and including (for the avoidance of
    doubt) regulations as to the manner of use of any car parking space or visitors car
    parking spaces and the nature of any vehicle which may be parked thereon.
    Originally posted by Quitto
    No right to make regulations concerning the "Premises" then, only the Common Parts and security of the building. However, this is then followed by wording that it includes regs "as to the manner of use of any car parking space.....". The question is whether the reference to "any car parking space" includes the car parking space included in "the Premises". You'd argue it doesn't, and it can only apply to non-demised car parking spaces (eg any communal/visitor spaces) - although against that argument they will say that there is then specific reference to visitors spaces and so the first reference to "any car parking space" can only mean the spaces demised with each flat/property. Are there any spaces other than the one owned by each resident and the visitors ones?


    It's a bit unclear I'm afraid, but arguable..


    Is there anything in the definitions/interpretations clause which helps with the interpretation of this clause/the definition of car parking spaces?
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 6th Oct 17, 12:05 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    There are only allocated spaces and a few disabled/visitor spaces, plus some allocated to commercial units. That's all.

    This is all I could find in definitions, no reference to car parking:

    “Building” means the building on the Estate of which the Premises form part and
    each and every part of the Building and the car park, service or loading area,
    service road if any and any other areas the use and enjoyment of which is
    appurtenant to the Building, whether or not within the structure of the Building.

    “Common Parts” means those parts of the Building (whether or not within the
    structure of the Building) to be used in common by any of the Leaseholder, other
    tenants and occupiers of the Building, the Landlord, and those properly authorised
    or permitted by them to do so, and “Common Parts” includes (but without
    limitation) any atrium and entrance hall, corridors, lobbies, staircases, lavatories,
    access ways, passages, lifts, escalators, turntables, courtyards, external
    pavements, car park, and its ramp, service and loading areas, service road,
    gardens and other such amenities, but excluding any such parts as may be within
    the Premises.
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 6th Oct 17, 12:21 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    One more thing to note, I did not realise I had a ticket until I received a letter demanding £100. I do not think the ticket was actually affixed to my car and a picture of a ticket did not match the time-code of a picture of my car parked in my bay. There was about 30 min difference between these pictures. I suspect the picture of a ticket is actually not on my car.

    Is it something I could use?
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 9th Oct 17, 11:36 AM
    • 1,739 Posts
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    Loadsofchildren123
    yes, to show how economical they are with the truth
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 9th Oct 17, 11:58 AM
    • 2,584 Posts
    • 3,845 Thanks
    fisherjim
    One more thing to note, I did not realise I had a ticket until I received a letter demanding £100. I do not think the ticket was actually affixed to my car and a picture of a ticket did not match the time-code of a picture of my car parked in my bay. There was about 30 min difference between these pictures. I suspect the picture of a ticket is actually not on my car.

    Is it something I could use?
    Originally posted by Quitto
    Yep it's commonly called "ghost ticketing" to bump up the charge!
    • Quitto
    • By Quitto 10th Oct 17, 9:15 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Quitto
    Could you please recommend an appropriate course of action in my case? Shall I write to housing association (again) or do the POPLA appeal? Any thoughts?
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