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  • FIRST POST
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 4th Oct 17, 10:25 PM
    • 40Posts
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    Joe whenjung
    Indigo railway parking notice
    • #1
    • 4th Oct 17, 10:25 PM
    Indigo railway parking notice 4th Oct 17 at 10:25 PM
    Hi all,

    First time poster, and after reading many threads I could do with some guidance (or help in finding the right thread as Im sure this has been answered somewhere already).

    The driver has received a Penalty Notice from Indigo for parking in Grange Park station. They did have a valid ticket which has time of purchase and the car registration on it. Unfortunately it had fallen out of sight.

    Should I appeal immediately and ask for clemency? Your guidance would be much appreciated.
    Thanks,
    Joe
    Last edited by Joe whenjung; 04-10-2017 at 10:59 PM.
Page 2
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 18th Dec 17, 10:05 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    Hi guys,

    As expected, I've received my ntk and the merry-go-round continues.

    Being in a pedantic mood, I checked off POFA2012 against the letter and it is riddled with issues (they really aren't very good at this).

    One thing has caught me unawares. The ntk offers me as keeper the option to appeal the notice within 28 days (the same offer that was offered to the driver with the original on screen ticket). It then offers me as keeper the option to refer my case to POPLA. Apologies if this is covered in the newbies thread, but I don't think I've seen it in there:

    1. Shall i use a variant of the blue text appeal from the newbies thread again? I've already used it in the appeal to Indigo online, but as they offer me another opportunity to appeal it would seem rude not to take the option.

    2. As they are offering me POPLA in writing, is this binding on them even though POPLA doesn't cover Bye-laws any longer? I believe I read something about this in another Indigo thread, but for the life of me cant find it now.

    3. The letter states "You may be legally liable for this offence even if you were not the driver at the time". Am I right in taking this to mean they allege keeper liability?

    4. Should I cite that the ntk has take 71 days to arrive, or should I hold that back for a possible court appointment? or do they take off the original 28 days to appeal from this calculation (in which case it is between 29-57 days.

    5. Should I cite the various POFA errors at this stage, or again hold them back until a possible later date?

    6. Or should I just ignore?
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 18th Dec 17, 10:12 PM
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    pappa golf
    2. As they are offering me POPLA in writing,


    ????

    go for it , state non relivent land , await next yrs announcement regarding railway bylaws by the government , it will have timed out by then

    however I expect them not to offer any evidence when asked by POPLA
    Last edited by pappa golf; 18-12-2017 at 10:24 PM.
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 18th Dec 17, 10:28 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    yeah papa golf, i didnt expect another offer to appeal, let alone an offer to take to POPLA
    "If your appeal is rejected you will be provoded with details of how to refer the matter to an independant appeals service (POPLA), along with a unique reference number."

    It on the back of the letter so I assume its just old stationary.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 18th Dec 17, 10:37 PM
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    pappa golf
    old stationary or not , you are making an appeal based on a very recent letter
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Dec 17, 10:55 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    You couldn't make it up could you! They have given you another chance to string it out further.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 18th Dec 17, 11:05 PM
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    pappa golf
    another 28 days to reply , then re writing to them regarding the POPLa code you will not get , and replies , should easily see 6 mths out


    copied from pepipoo

    Indigo Park Solutions UK Ltd has no written authorisation from the landlord to manage any of these station car parks. All their tickets are fraudulent. Only Indigo Park Services UK Ltd has written authorisation, that is a totally different company with a different registration number
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 18th Dec 17, 11:41 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    can you link to the thread pappa? Id like to see if they give the source of information. Unless anyone here knows where one can source a list of companies with written authorisation?
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 19th Dec 17, 10:38 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    Hi guys,

    Just wanted to get your view on something. As I have been given an unexpected opportunity to make a second appeal in this case, I can either go with a simple appeal (blue text appeal slightly amended), or go big.

    I see my options currently as:
    1. A standard blue text appeal, but also highlighting that the NtK has arrived after 75 days. Or;
    2. Give the 'Big' reply below. I'm not sure if this goes too far and could compromise a the POPLA appeal they have offered me (although I know they will not issue the code).

    If 1, no need to read the letter below. Thoughts?



    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    1. I write in response to your letter dated XXXX (Your Letter). I note that this is a Notice to Keeper (NtK) and was given to me as keeper on XXXX.

    2. I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    3. Your Letter makes it clear that if my appeal is rejected I will be provided with details of how to refer the matter to an Independent Appeals Service (“POPLA”), along with a unique reference number. Should my appeal be unsuccessful, I will be requiring such details and unique reference number as specified in Your Letter.

    4. I note that a period of 71 days has expired between the date on which the notice to driver was given, and the date on which this notice letter was sent to the current address for service for the keeper.

    5. I further note that 75 days has expired between the date on which the notice to driver was given, and the date on which this notice letter was given to the current address for service for the keeper.

    6. POFA2012 8(5) specifies that a NtK must be given within “28 days following the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to driver was given”. As noted above, this NtK has been given 75 days after an initial notice to driver was given.

    7. I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    8. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.

    9. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.


    10. You have obtained the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach.

    11. I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    12. Under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA2012) you are required to have the right to enforce against the driver of the vehicle the requirement to pay any alleged unpaid parking charges. Please confirm that INDIGO PARK SOLUTIONS UK LIMITED have such a right conferred on it by the landowner.

    13. Your Letter specifies that a notice was affixed to the car offering me (as Keeper) an opportunity to avoid criminal prosecution. Please confirm the legal basis upon which a Keeper of a vehicle is required to pay an invoice (PCN) issued to a Driver of a vehicle.

    14. POFA2012 8.2(c) requires a NtK to:
    “state that a notice to driver relating to the specified period of parking has been given and repeat the information in that notice as required by paragraph 7(2)(b), (c) and (f);”
    Please confirm that such a notice to driver has been given.

    15. POFA2012 8(2)(e)(ii) and POFA2012 8(2)(f)(ii) and POFA 9(2)(e) requires a NtK to:
    “state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver”
    Your Letter does not clarify your knowledge of the drivers name or address. Please state your current position with respect to your knowledge of the name and address of the driver.

    16. Please clarify what happens after 28 days of the issue date of the NtK with respect to your rights as creditor. POFA2012 is very clear that this should be specified.

    17. POFA 8(7) requires the NtK to “be accompanied by any evidence prescribed under paragraph 10.” As no evidence accompanied this NtK, I must assume that no evidence is in existence. Please confirm this is the case.

    18. POFA 9(2)(b) states that an NtK must “inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;” Your Letter gives no such information. Please clarify your position with respect to this point.

    19. POFA 9(2)(e)(ii) states that a NtK must invite the Keeper to “to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;”.
    In Your Letter you issue no such invitation. Please clarify your position with respect to the issue of an invitation of this nature.

    20. You must either offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Yours faithfully,
    • Marktheshark
    • By Marktheshark 19th Dec 17, 10:43 PM
    • 5,693 Posts
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    Marktheshark
    Hi guys,

    If I appeal as the KEEPER, what grounds could I put? The DRIVER could appeal on the basis that a parking ticket had been paid for, but fallen in the foot well. As keeper, I don't believe I have any other reason to appeal (signage is clear etc).
    Originally posted by Joe whenjung
    ONLY !!!
    state facts which support your case, the driver had purchased and displayed a valid contractual payment receipt.
    Which a copy (never send the original) is enclosed.

    EMIT : facts that admit anything that is detrimental to your case, this is known as a defence.

    Leave anything that is detrimental to the case for them to prove.
    Brexit will become whatever they invent it to be.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 19th Dec 17, 10:49 PM
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    pappa golf
    can you link to the thread pappa? Id like to see if they give the source of information. Unless anyone here knows where one can source a list of companies with written authorisation?
    Originally posted by Joe whenjung
    .http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117347&st=0

    post 10
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 19th Dec 17, 10:50 PM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    Thanks Mark. You are right. I've got so caught up in the process, I've forgotten the original injustice behind it.

    it was of course ignored in the initial appeal, but no reason not to re-state that fact. Would you emit everything from 12. down?
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 20th Dec 17, 3:03 PM
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    pappa golf
    ok , I expect they will falter when you demand a POPLa code

    this is the latest rubbish from Indigo

    "Thank you for your email.

    I can see that in this instance, the charge was issued for a breach of the advertised terms and conditions by on privately owned Railway land. Charges issued on Railway land are referred to as Penalty Charge Notices because they will have been issued under railway Byelaws as well. Whilst I am sorry to learn if you were unhappy with the outcome of the appeal, it is not something I can address. The BPA has no authority to intervene in the appeals process.

    As the charge has been issued on railway land, then please be be advised that the BPA has temporarily removed the requirement for our members to provide a POPLA verification Code when an appeal is rejected. This is due to complaints being made that POPLA are not able to oversee appeals made where railway Byelaws are concerned. Until a solution is found, if a motorist remains unhappy following an appeal’s rejection, they can appeal further via a Magistrates Court; our Code from which you have quoted does not reflect this at the moment as the decision is temporary. Unfortunately, as we cannot advise you how long the requirement will remain lifted, you will now need to use the Magistrate’s Court to appeal further.

    The British Parking Association (BPA) has campaigned at length for clarity on the clauses in Railway Byelaws pertaining to parking to be improved, and the Government committed at a meeting in January to provide clarification but due to various circumstances, some beyond their control, this has not been forthcoming. In the meantime we will continue to work with Government to achieve a resolution to Railway Byelaws Clauses.

    Please also be aware that when a charge remains unpaid, then in due course it will be escalated to debt recovery. This is standard procedure. The cost of the charge can increase as the debt collection agency add on their costs. With that in mind, I would suggest that you now either pay the charges, or seek legal advice to contest it via Magistrates court.




    I hope this information is of use."



    note the words "seek legal advice to contest it via Magistrates court.


    you have sought legal help , and now you will await the TRAIN OPERATING COMPANYs invatation to contest it via Magistrates court

    they will have to start court action (in order for you to contest) within 6 mths of the incident

    basically , as indigo cannot assist anymore , no point in dealing with them
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 20th Dec 17, 9:35 PM
    • 16,311 Posts
    • 25,386 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Unfortunately, as we cannot advise you how long the requirement will remain lifted, you will now need to use the Magistrate’s Court to appeal further.
    The motorist, of course, cannot use the Mags Court of their own volition, and if it ends up in the Mags Court, under prosecution by the TOC (not the PPC), the owner (note emphasis) or driver will not be appealing anything, they will be defending a criminal charge.

    As much smoke and mirrors from the BPA as from Indigo. The whole shooting match is a mess, with the motorist still remaining at the bottom of this particular food chain.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 20-12-2017 at 9:37 PM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 20th Dec 17, 9:44 PM
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    pappa golf
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 6th Jan 18, 1:06 AM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    Hi guys,
    Just drafting my second appeal to Indigo. I know it will be auto-rejected as these things tend to be, but I would like to be accurate nonetheless. Ive decided to go to town on them with POFA breaches.

    In my letter I am highlighting that the NtK was received (after 75 days). Should I refer to the date "on which the original PCN was issued to the driver", or should I refer to it as the "date of the alleged parking incident"?

    Not sure that it matters, so would be interested in views.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Jan 18, 1:14 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    "date of the alleged parking incident", I favour.

    But seeing as the POFA cannot apply on this land, they were OK to send the first letter after 75 days purely because they didn't have to try to follow POFA deadlines or wording. It's irrelevant when they've described this as a 'byelaws penalty'.

    What I mean is, you can't say the NTK was served too late, because it wasn't.

    There is no applicable NTK deadline and no regulation at all of these fake penalties at railways.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 6th Jan 18, 1:36 AM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    As always my thanks Coupon.

    I thought I had my head around this. The land is owned by the TOC, and so should be relevant land (ie not a public highway, and not controlled by a parking authority). Do I have this wrong?

    If they cannot rely on POFA to transfer liability to the Keeper, how do they do so? Is there another piece of legislation that applies?

    Every time I think I'm getting to a point where I do understand it all, an expert educates me again.
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 6th Jan 18, 1:45 AM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    I just found a really clear explanation of this. Am I right in thinking that as it is a railway car park, it is under statutory control control - ie Byelaws?

    http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/byelaws/
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 6th Jan 18, 2:35 AM
    • 1,507 Posts
    • 1,647 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Yes, that’s what’s been said all along!
    They don’t have any legislation. The byelaws do not actually have any enabling legislation allowing for a penalty regime, and thevattemp to hold the owner liable is ultra vires.

    It’s a con. They’re essentially offering a contract not to take you to mags, but they don’t have the power to take to mags anyway.
    • Joe whenjung
    • By Joe whenjung 6th Jan 18, 10:44 AM
    • 40 Posts
    • 31 Thanks
    Joe whenjung
    My mistake. I thought that POFA sat alongside the Byelaws,

    So Byelaw 14 (4)(i):
    The owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance
    used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be
    liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area

    May? Is this where it comes down to legal precedence of magistrates decisions on prosecutions?

    And because and monies would go to govt, the PPC and TOC just arent interested?
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