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    • Mark64uk
    • By Mark64uk 3rd Oct 17, 3:35 PM
    • 72Posts
    • 40Thanks
    Mark64uk
    Refusing to pay renewal fee
    • #1
    • 3rd Oct 17, 3:35 PM
    Refusing to pay renewal fee 3rd Oct 17 at 3:35 PM
    Hi All,

    I moved into property in Nov 2015 and renewed 2016 i had an email last week saying that the landlord would offer another 12 month term but i now had to pay a £150 " Documentation fee" i questioned why i never had to pay this before and they replied as i wasn't informed as a good will gesture they have now reduced it to £110 nice of them eh ?

    I told them that the fee was unfair and that i should of been told about this when they introduced it and also pointed out they the government recognises that these fees were unfair and putting in steps to ban them there reply

    "The government have not yet announced any changes to the law regarding fees and therefore the £150 tenancy documentation fee is still chargeable."

    Basically we know they are wrong but tough.

    There is a clause in the tenancy that allows them to increase the rent by a certain % each yeah i think they are now using this fee to get round this as it effectively doubles my rent increase.

    Now i'm standing my ground on this because £110 to send a couple of emails and copy and past my name and address into a PDF is a SCAM !

    I've asked to go on a periodic tenancy to which they replied they don't offer them and a s21 was issued today and i was told if i wanted to vacate before this expires then i had to give one months notice ( Is this because i will in fact be on periodic after Nov 21st s21 expires on 5 dec)

    My question is should i just pay or stand my ground i'm willing to take this to the end as its the agent who is serving the s21 not the landlord i highly doubt the landlord knows as my whole estate is owned by an investment company and all 56 houses on the plot are rentals the agent indicated that i could pay the fee before the s21 expires i just think i'm being blackmailed by them.

    Thanks

    Mark

Page 2
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 3rd Oct 17, 6:33 PM
    • 5,572 Posts
    • 4,973 Thanks
    00ec25
    I know they just want there fee i was emailed this yesterday

    I am sorry to hear that you will not be renewing. The Landlord will now require me to serve notice on the property and this will confirm your vacate date. If you would like to vacate sooner, we just require one months' written notice from yourselves.

    I assume the one month notice is due to being on a periodic after the 21st so they want me to abide by the rules of one month notice but wont recognise a periodic tenancy so i replied this to see if they would admit i'm on one

    I also noticed i am able to vacate before the end of the s21 expiry why would i have to give one month notice when the tenancy ends in nov? It cant be that the tenancy has rolled over to periodic as you dont offer these even though its the law if a fixed term continues so why the notice? but your tenancy does not end in Nov if you remain resident

    Yeah i've told them i'm not going to be moving out on the 5th of December when the s21 expires and ill continue to pay the increased rent up until the eviction date i think ill just leave it that.
    Originally posted by Mark64uk
    if you remain in residence after the end of the current fixed term, but have not signed the renewal, then yes, you have automatically "rolled over" on to a Statutory Periodic Tenancy.

    As a SPT, the tenant must always give notice in order to end their tenancy. That notice must be for 1 rental period and the expiry date must align with the end date of the rental period. Therefore it will, in practice, often be for more than "1 month" - see G_M's guide on tenancies for examples of what that means
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=67759913&postcount=4

    as for your options:
    1. your fixed term expires on Nov 21st - you could move out that day without having to give notice as that is the natural end of your tenancy and you do not wish to renew it, so it ends!

    2, if you remain in occupation after Nov 21st an SPT commences. You cannot issue notice before the SPT comes into force, therefore, assuming your rental periods run from 22nd to 21st of each month, the earliest you could give notice would be Nov 22nd to expire on Dec 21st (1 rental period of the newly created SPT). Thereafter any notice you give must end on the 22nd and be served on or before the 21st of the previous month

    3. whether the S21 you have already received with an expiry date of Dec 5th is valid I leave to others to comment on. Presumably as you already have it then it has given you at least 2 months notice given today is Oct 3rd, but i am unsure if a S21 served before the start of an SPT is valid
    Last edited by 00ec25; 03-10-2017 at 6:49 PM.
    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 3rd Oct 17, 6:41 PM
    • 269 Posts
    • 274 Thanks
    HampshireH
    Does you tenancy agreement have a clause in it which allows them to serve you notice to a specific email address? Or did you receive one served to the property as well?

    Its not a scam. Does the company website detail their costs? Usually a tenancy agreement will detail the additional fees required and at what intervals.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 3rd Oct 17, 6:51 PM
    • 42,318 Posts
    • 49,159 Thanks
    G_M
    Does you tenancy agreement have a clause in it which allows them to serve you notice to a specific email address? Or did you receive one served to the property as well?
    Originally posted by HampshireH
    Good point. S21 usually has to be served at the property. Check your tenancy agreement and do not acknowledge that you have received the S21.

    Another reason not to be replying.
    • Mark64uk
    • By Mark64uk 3rd Oct 17, 6:54 PM
    • 72 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    Mark64uk
    1) Stop makig offers and emailing. The agent has made their position perfectly clear and as others have said is just interested in their fee. They will not change their mind


    3) the S21 may or may not be valid. The timescale sounds right (2 calender months) but worth checking all the other factors. See my link for full details. If it's invalid, don't tell them. Just wait and contest it at court
    Originally posted by G_M
    Ill stop communicating with them from now on.

    Had a quick look at the s21 checklist and although I've not had a paper copy of the s21 yet in the post so it could be included with that i have not had how to rent guide given to me.

    • Mark64uk
    • By Mark64uk 3rd Oct 17, 6:59 PM
    • 72 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    Mark64uk
    Does you tenancy agreement have a clause in it which allows them to serve you notice to a specific email address? Or did you receive one served to the property as well?

    Its not a scam. Does the company website detail their costs? Usually a tenancy agreement will detail the additional fees required and at what intervals.
    Originally posted by HampshireH
    I understand its not a scam maybe shouldn't of used that term maybe Rip off would be better.

    This is the agents website

    http://www.livedifrent.com/

    I had a quick look and cant see anything about serving notice via email the original tenancy was signed electronically via docusign if that makes any difference.I have not had one in the post yet it was only issued today so could come shortly.
    Last edited by Mark64uk; 03-10-2017 at 7:08 PM.

    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 3rd Oct 17, 7:17 PM
    • 269 Posts
    • 274 Thanks
    HampshireH
    I understand its not a scam maybe shouldn't of used that term maybe Rip off would be better.

    This is the agents website

    http://www.livedifrent.com/

    I had a quick look and cant see anything about serving notice via email the original tenancy was signed electronically via docusign if that makes any difference.I have not had one in the post yet it was only issued today so could come shortly.
    Originally posted by Mark64uk
    Now Rip Off I completely agree with. Their website is very clear what is expected in terms of fees and how much,

    Having looked at their facebook page here https://www.facebook.com/pg/LiveDifRent/reviews/it would seem you aren't alone and many people have been stung by this new policy they introduced.

    Your |£110 isn't a goodwill gesture - its been applied to others for the same reason. Others have also been served a S21 so either the landlord is extremely ignorant to his LA or they are quite happy with the practices being employed.

    Heads up..... your next Thread will be about not getting your deposit back. See link above and visitors posts/reviews
    • G_M
    • By G_M 3rd Oct 17, 7:20 PM
    • 42,318 Posts
    • 49,159 Thanks
    G_M
    ....... i have not had how to rent guide given to me.
    Originally posted by Mark64uk
    What date did your original tenancy start?

    The full checklist is worth doing.......

    See S21 checklist here.

    If you don't receive a paer copy by post by 5th Oct, then it may well be invalid as expiry date is 5th Dec
    Last edited by G_M; 03-10-2017 at 7:25 PM.
    • camelot1971
    • By camelot1971 3rd Oct 17, 7:42 PM
    • 552 Posts
    • 862 Thanks
    camelot1971
    It will cost you a lot more than £150 to move. I get its annoying but seems silly to me to try and prove a point. The landlord and agent won't care at all.
    • Marktheshark
    • By Marktheshark 3rd Oct 17, 7:50 PM
    • 5,693 Posts
    • 7,161 Thanks
    Marktheshark
    Ask them to clarify in what capacity they see themselves acting.
    Agent to landlord only,. of so you have no contract with them and should inform them of this and state you will deal with the landlord only.
    Agent to tenant and landlord as in tri party agent, which is how they are acting, in which case you have equal bargaining power and can simply sack the agent.

    A new one would have to be appointed.
    I would inform them they are sacked as agent in the tri-party agreement for unreasonable behaviour.
    See what they thing to that.
    Brexit will become whatever they invent it to be.
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 3rd Oct 17, 7:56 PM
    • 11,202 Posts
    • 15,655 Thanks
    Pixie5740
    Ask them to clarify in what capacity they see themselves acting.
    Agent to landlord only,. of so you have no contract with them and should inform them of this and state you will deal with the landlord only.
    Agent to tenant and landlord as in tri party agent, which is how they are acting, in which case you have equal bargaining power and can simply sack the agent.

    A new one would have to be appointed.
    I would inform them they are sacked as agent in the tri-party agreement for unreasonable behaviour.
    See what they thing to that.
    Originally posted by Marktheshark
    How many more times are you going to post this tri-party bull$hit on the forum? For hopefully the last and final time, the tenant has no contract with the letting agency, the tenant's contract is with the landlord.
    Last edited by Pixie5740; 03-10-2017 at 8:03 PM.
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 3rd Oct 17, 8:01 PM
    • 42,318 Posts
    • 49,159 Thanks
    G_M
    Ask them to clarify in what capacity they see themselves acting.
    Agent to landlord only,. of so you have no contract with them and should inform them of this and state you will deal with the landlord only.
    Agent to tenant and landlord as in tri party agent, which is how they are acting, in which case you have equal bargaining power and can simply sack the agent.

    A new one would have to be appointed.
    I would inform them they are sacked as agent in the tri-party agreement for unreasonable behaviour.
    See what they thing to that.
    Originally posted by Marktheshark
    What the .....???
    OP - please ignore this legal gibberish.

    You have sensibly said above you will not contact the agent further. Contacting with this approach is the worst thing you can do!
    • Mark64uk
    • By Mark64uk 3rd Oct 17, 8:14 PM
    • 72 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    Mark64uk
    Now Rip Off I completely agree with. Their website is very clear what is expected in terms of fees and how much,
    Originally posted by HampshireH
    That page has changed since i took the tenancy there's no mention of documentation fees and there wast a list of fees when i signed up we have never had that list of fees sent to us.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20151127033935/http://www.livedifrent.com/renting-with-us/


    What date did your original tenancy start?
    21st Nov 2015

    It will cost you a lot more than £150 to move. I get its annoying but seems silly to me to try and prove a point. The landlord and agent won't care at all.
    On the other hand it will cost them more than the £110 to get me out.
    Last edited by Mark64uk; 03-10-2017 at 9:36 PM.

    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 3rd Oct 17, 8:36 PM
    • 269 Posts
    • 274 Thanks
    HampshireH
    What does your tenancy say about notices and changes in policy (if at all)

    As per my previous post it seems a lot of people have bit stung by this policy change.

    Unfortunately they are serving S21's quite regularly by the sound of it - doesn't look like they are too fussed about how much it is costing them. They sound awful.... you may be better off finding somewhere else
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 3rd Oct 17, 8:37 PM
    • 3,588 Posts
    • 3,634 Thanks
    DoaM
    21st Nov 2105
    Originally posted by Mark64uk
    When did you invent a time machine? Why not use it to resolve this issue before it happens?
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Mark64uk
    • By Mark64uk 3rd Oct 17, 11:39 PM
    • 72 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    Mark64uk
    What does your tenancy say about notices and changes in policy (if at all)
    Originally posted by HampshireH
    I found this but i dont know if it should be posted as says email in the first bit then post in the second




    When did you invent a time machine? Why not use it to resolve this issue before it happens?
    Fixed

    • bris
    • By bris 3rd Oct 17, 11:48 PM
    • 7,103 Posts
    • 6,121 Thanks
    bris
    On the other hand it will cost them more than the £110 to get me out.
    Originally posted by Mark64uk
    Why? they can draft the paperwork themselves in 5 minutes from templates they will have to hand.


    If you refuse to leave after the correct paperwork tells you to than any cost to evict you will become an expense they can chase you for, so that comes off your deposit right away.


    Renewal fees aren't exactly new, they are common practice and until England bans those fees like they have in Scotland you will just face the same problem with the next agency you rent through. It's all well and good playing the martyr but the only ones who will suffer is you, they won't give it a second thought.


    The chance of a reference which you might need from them for your next tenancy will also be slim to none.
    • Mark64uk
    • By Mark64uk 4th Oct 17, 12:11 AM
    • 72 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    Mark64uk
    If you refuse to leave after the correct paperwork tells you to than any cost to evict you will become an expense they can chase you for, so that comes off your deposit right away.

    Looking at their facebook page ill struggle to get my deposit back leaving the house in pristine condition, i wrote that money off as soon as i handed it over.


    Renewal fees aren't exactly new, they are common practice and until England bans those fees like they have in Scotland you will just face the same problem with the next agency you rent through. It's all well and good playing the martyr but the only ones who will suffer is you, they won't give it a second thought.

    I understand there not new but they are new to this agent they didn't charge me in 2016 and never informed me or anyone else that they were now charging, instead they put the pressure of paying them on you when they email you saying they were happy to renew BUT you must pay the new fee.Ill just have to bring my plans forward with my house purchase and not use an letting agent !
    Last edited by Mark64uk; 04-10-2017 at 12:16 AM.

    • G_M
    • By G_M 4th Oct 17, 7:58 AM
    • 42,318 Posts
    • 49,159 Thanks
    G_M






    Fixed
    Originally posted by Mark64uk
    Seems clear as mud.

    Provided you have not acknowledged receipt of the email you could claim non-receiptt and point to the requirement to serve at the property address.

    Whether thaat on its on own would invalidate the S21 is up to a judge who might or might not take the reference to email into account.

    If you've acknowledged receipt, then it's a non-starter.
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 4th Oct 17, 8:27 AM
    • 1,010 Posts
    • 678 Thanks
    saajan_12
    On the other hand it will cost them more than the £110 to get me out.
    Originally posted by Mark64uk
    No, it's the LA who would receive the £110.. It would earn them ~£500+ if you leave, by charging the LL for sending notices, check out fees, new tenant referencing fees, agreement drafting fees, check in inventory fees..

    With that incentive, they might convince the LL that they need to evict for 'security of tenure'. It would cost the LL in rental void, but any court costs are recoverable from you.
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 4th Oct 17, 8:43 AM
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    00ec25
    Whether thaat on its on own would invalidate the S21 is up to a judge who might or might not take the reference to email into account.
    Originally posted by G_M
    yes, but the judge may also decide that an email address is a qualifying "LL's addresses" since that is what the clause allows and as you well know "the law" does now recognise the existence of more than just pen and paper as a communication method

    (although perhaps tea and cake should be a compulsory mitigation clause in law)
    Last edited by 00ec25; 04-10-2017 at 8:47 AM.
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