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  • FIRST POST
    • BOBFOC
    • By BOBFOC 3rd Oct 17, 12:10 PM
    • 26Posts
    • 13Thanks
    BOBFOC
    NTK for Coop Car Park - Norfolk Parking Enforcement (NPE) ANPR Version
    • #1
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:10 PM
    NTK for Coop Car Park - Norfolk Parking Enforcement (NPE) ANPR Version 3rd Oct 17 at 12:10 PM
    Hello MSE

    A Notice To Keeper (NTK) has been received, for parking at a Norwich East of England Co-Op) Shop. They delivered it in good time and in letter form.

    Details (redacted) as follows:

    National Parking Enforcement LTD
    The Studio, St. Nicholas Close, Elstree, Herts, WD6 3EW
    Reg: 08031075

    Location: Earlham Green (East of England Co-Op), NR4 7TE
    Duration: times redacted, but 15 minutes duration

    Reason for issue: "Parked in a child and parent bay whilst unaccompanied by a child of 12 years or less, Parked in a disabled bay & failing to display a valid blue badge."

    "The driver of the above vehicle, etc.”

    Some detail (to be included in any appeal, if advised to by MSE) of the circumstances that caused the driver to be parked in the parent and child bay are as follows:

    The driver is an unemployed Granddad, and he wanted to use the cash point machine, and the Co-Op shop, and the post office (all in same place). The driver had no money until he had checked the cash point. When the driver left his car, he had 3 passengers inside (his daughter, and 2 granddaughters under the ages of 12) but as they were all ill with coughs and colds, and crying, he left them alone to visit the cash point first. The driver told his daughter that he would check if he had received benefit payments, and if so, he said he would treat the girls to something in the shop. The driver didn't even think to check if it was OK to park in a child/parent bay with children in the car, as he just assumed it was correct. The drivers child and grandchildren all remained inside the car while he used the cash point, but he had told them all that he would come back to let them know if they could come into the shop too, a few minutes later.

    The driver returned to the car to tell them that he didn't have enough money in his account for treats for the children, and also to collect the parcel that he had to post inside the Co-Op. The driver has a postal receipt for the tracking of his parcel, but not for the transaction for food inside the shop, which was in cash.

    The driver has witnesses who can confirm that the children were all ill that day.

    Following the driver's very brief 15 minute stop at Co-Op, he left the car park none the wiser. He hadn't even remotely considered that he may have breached some private parking notice.

    The driver has provided me with a photo which shows the parking warning notice in place at the Co-Op, and it says a “Parent” using the child/parent space would require that the children would have needed to leave the car with the “Parent”.

    I will post the photo of the sign in case it’s needed. The wording does sound biased against Grandparents, as it makes no mention that, for example, and elderly Grandparent could use the "Parent and Child Bays", despite the fact that you would expect that to be even more important, from the perspective of the Co-Op, and their ethical stance and community values, to support the elderly. The driver was not an OAP, but he wanted to help raise this potential discrimination for future reference of people, in similar situations.

    I will await a reply, and keep reading in the meantime. I have already read a fair amount of the posts on this forum, and I understand that a letter of appeal may be needed. A letter of complaint will also be sent to the Chief Executive of Co-Operative Food; steve.murrells@co-operative.coop

    ** see below post #8 for correct CEO **

    Please advise which template of appeal letter I should be using.

    Thanks for the great work you all do.

    Photo of the parking notice - I couldn't include due to forum restrictions.
    Last edited by BOBFOC; 03-10-2017 at 6:45 PM.
    The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
    ~Frank Zappa
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Oct 17, 12:15 PM
    • 16,013 Posts
    • 20,031 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:15 PM
    • #2
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:15 PM
    NPE are IPC members (and have changed their trading name from Norfolk) so its the IPC template and no chance of any POPLA code as they use the IAS

    all the advice you need is in the NEWBIES thread

    the backstory wont mean a thing to the PPC , so stay as KEEPER when appealing , but dont think they will cancel because they wont

    a landholder cancellation is your BEST OPTION
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • BOBFOC
    • By BOBFOC 3rd Oct 17, 12:20 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    BOBFOC
    • #3
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:20 PM
    • #3
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:20 PM
    NPE are IPC members (and have changed their trading name from Norfolk) so its the IPC template and no chance of any POPLA code as they use the IAS

    all the advice you need is in the NEWBIES thread

    the backstory wont mean a thing to the PPC , so stay as KEEPER when appealing , but dont think they will cancel because they wont

    a landholder cancellation is your BEST OPTION
    Originally posted by Redx
    Ah, Ok. I must have been looking at old info regarding the name, and the fact it was under BPA. Is IPC easier to resolve than BPA, or are they really fairly similar?

    Where should I start looking for landholder cancellation, such as finding out who owns the land?

    Thank you
    The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
    ~Frank Zappa
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Oct 17, 12:23 PM
    • 16,013 Posts
    • 20,031 Thanks
    Redx
    • #4
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:23 PM
    • #4
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:23 PM
    all explained in the NEWBIES sticky thread, please read it AGAIN , and again , until it sinks in

    try google for landholder details, or the shops themselves, or pay the Land Registry for landholder details
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 3rd Oct 17, 12:28 PM
    • 40,412 Posts
    • 80,719 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #5
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:28 PM
    • #5
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:28 PM
    Start by editing your post to remove information about who did what. Only ever refer to The Driver and The Keeper, who ARE two different people as far as anyone is concerned.

    The landholder is the shop The Driver visited, the landowner you can find from the land registry for a small fee, but start with the store manager and/or CEO.
    Refer to yourself as The Keeper and say that The Driver was a genuine customer. Show redacted receipts or bank/cc statements to show this.

    IPC is a sham and much worserer than the BPA, therefore a landholder cancellation is best, but don't miss he PPC's appeal deadline.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 03-10-2017 at 12:33 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • BOBFOC
    • By BOBFOC 3rd Oct 17, 12:41 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    BOBFOC
    • #6
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:41 PM
    • #6
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:41 PM
    Start by editing your post to remove information about who did what. Only ever refer to The Driver and The Keeper, who ARE two different people as far as anyone is concerned.

    The landholder is the shop The Driver visited, the landowner you can find from the land registry for a small fee, but start with the store manager and/or CEO.
    Refer to yourself as The Keeper and say that The Driver was a genuine customer. Show redacted receipts or bank/cc statements to show this.

    IPC is a sham and much worserer than the BPA, therefore a landholder cancellation is best, but don't miss he PPC's appeal deadline.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Thanks for the additional info. I only read the BPA elements of the Newbies Threads, as I noticed that they NPE had a BPA logo at the bottom of their website. I will go and read the IPC threads too.

    The driver is happy to begin writing an email for their CEO.

    He can't afford to pay the Land Registry, unless it's a last resort. His finances are pretty bad as he is on benefits.
    Last edited by BOBFOC; 03-10-2017 at 6:48 PM.
    The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
    ~Frank Zappa
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Oct 17, 12:47 PM
    • 16,013 Posts
    • 20,031 Thanks
    Redx
    • #7
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:47 PM
    • #7
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:47 PM
    there are 2 types of logo , rectangular and a roundel , meaning different things , which have been explained hundreds of times on here

    go to the IPC website , click on AOS MEMBERS and clisk on the N section , you will see them listed under NATIONAL , then read the small print

    this means they use the IPC CoP and the IPC IAS for disputes, this is what matters (not some logo)

    the ability to pay is irrelevant in these matters , but you did ask so I and fruitcake gave you the info you asked for , makes no difference to us is you can act on it or not

    we give out the advice, you take it from there

    if this goes to court and you lose, the judge will still issue a judgment for the claimant and a sum to pay , irrespective of your finances , sorry to say

    we cannot "dress up" the issues etc , this isnt the samaritans (lol), we tell it like it is, so you can play from a full deck and know the consequences

    a typical loss could be £175 in court , the PPC has 6 years to issue an MCOL from Northampton CCBC
    Last edited by Redx; 10-10-2017 at 4:18 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • BOBFOC
    • By BOBFOC 3rd Oct 17, 1:07 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    BOBFOC
    • #8
    • 3rd Oct 17, 1:07 PM
    • #8
    • 3rd Oct 17, 1:07 PM
    I have spoken to the co-op totally anonymously and obtained the correct name and email address for the CEO.

    East of England Co-operative Society

    Mr Roger Grosvenor - Executive Officer - Retail

    Email rgrosvenor@eastofengland.coop

    Telephone 01473 786000
    Switchboard 01473 786000

    In order to find the landowner information should a request be added to the letter of complaint sent to Co-Op?
    Last edited by BOBFOC; 03-10-2017 at 6:52 PM.
    The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
    ~Frank Zappa
    • BOBFOC
    • By BOBFOC 3rd Oct 17, 2:38 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    BOBFOC
    • #9
    • 3rd Oct 17, 2:38 PM
    • #9
    • 3rd Oct 17, 2:38 PM
    Hello, could someone please give this a sanity check? Thanks...


    National Parking Enforcement LTD
    St Nicholas Cl,
    Elstree,
    Borehamwood,
    WD6 3EW


    Re PCN number: *******

    I am the keeper of the vehicle and am aware of your purported 'parking charge'. The driver will not be identified. I require the following information so that I can make an informed decision:

    1. Who is the party that contracted with your company and are they the landowner?
    2. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? Answer yes or no.
    3. Please provide photos of the signs that you say were on site, which you contend formed a contract with the driver.
    4. Please provide all photographs taken of this vehicle.
    5. Please provide proof that the timing of any camera or timer used was synchronised with all other cameras and/or systems & machines.

    Do not send debt collector letters and do not add any costs, which would be a thinly-veiled attempt at 'double recovery'. I will not respond to debt collectors and to involve a third party would be a failure to mitigate your costs as well as deliberate and knowing misuse of my data.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the IPC Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, as seems likely based on my research) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me. I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle.

    I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    In order to resolve the dispute I attach copies of the driver’s Royal Mail postal confirmation of that day as they were a genuine customer East of England Co-Op. The driver's other business that day was a cash transaction for food, and using the cash point machine.

    Yours faithfully,

    xxxxxxx
    Last edited by BOBFOC; 03-10-2017 at 6:54 PM.
    The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
    ~Frank Zappa
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 3rd Oct 17, 2:53 PM
    • 7,374 Posts
    • 7,532 Thanks
    pappa golf
    http://www.parkingprotection.co.uk/contact.html

    Address:
    PO BOX 244, Wymondham, Norfolk NR18 8BZ

    St Nicholas Cl,
    Elstree,
    Borehamwood,
    WD6 3EW

    is the company secretary's address , or a mail drop , it is used by 4,589 companies see https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/search?q=WD6+3EW

    do you expect them to answer those questions?
    • BOBFOC
    • By BOBFOC 3rd Oct 17, 3:04 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    BOBFOC

    do you expect them to answer those questions?
    Originally posted by pappa golf
    It's just copied from the relevant template for appeal. I am just following instructions, I'm not of a legal mind myself. I will be emailing this as per the guidance given in the "Template appeal for IPC members - copy this wording into the online appeal box or into an email" from the newbies thread. Unless I am advised differently, or advised to make some alterations first.

    Thanks
    The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
    ~Frank Zappa
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 3rd Oct 17, 3:38 PM
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    pappa golf
    may I suggest YOU go back to the site and get photos , they may be very relivent , do to numerous company name changes
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 3rd Oct 17, 3:46 PM
    • 7,374 Posts
    • 7,532 Thanks
    pappa golf
    I have spoken to the co-op totally anonymously and obtained the correct name and email address for the CEO.

    East of England Co-operative Society

    Mr Roger Grosvenor - Executive Officer - Retail

    Email rgrosvenor@eastofengland.coop

    Telephone 01473 786000
    Switchboard 01473 786000

    In order to find the landowner information should I include a specific request for this in my letter of complaint to him? Or try and call him anonymously?
    Originally posted by BOBFOC
    write to him (email) stating you WHERE a customer , and you had children in the car , tell him the company (npe) are mucking puddled accusing you of a:not having children present IN CAR whilst parked in a parent /child area and b: parking in a disabled bay ,

    ask him how an automated camera can see or even detect a: children present or b: the lack of blue badge (not actually needed on private land)

    the best chance of cancellation will be by the coop , but after there dealings a dew yrs ago with another PPC , expect them to "ethically" wash there hands
    • BOBFOC
    • By BOBFOC 3rd Oct 17, 3:49 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    BOBFOC
    may I suggest YOU go back to the site and get photos , they may be very relivent , do to numerous company name changes
    Originally posted by pappa golf
    I have a photo of the signage stating the parking requirement. I would have to travel 20 miles to get further photo's, but I am willing to do so if I know what I need to capture.

    I can't share the image I have already due to site posting restrictions. Unless there is a non-url method I can use?


    Thanks
    The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
    ~Frank Zappa
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 3rd Oct 17, 3:53 PM
    • 7,374 Posts
    • 7,532 Thanks
    pappa golf
    yes use tinipics or whatever and just type the link (dont use insert pic button) , then alter the http. to read something like hxxp.

    i use https://imgbb.com/
    • BOBFOC
    • By BOBFOC 3rd Oct 17, 4:01 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    BOBFOC
    yes use tinipics or whatever and just type the link (dont use insert pic button) , then alter the http. to read something like hxxp.

    i use hxxps://imgbb.com/
    Originally posted by pappa golf
    [IMG]hxxp://i63.tinypic.com/xkoz9z.jpg[/IMG]

    May not have worked, but this should:

    hxxp://tinypic.com/r/xkoz9z/9
    Last edited by BOBFOC; 03-10-2017 at 4:05 PM.
    The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
    ~Frank Zappa
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 3rd Oct 17, 4:05 PM
    • 7,374 Posts
    • 7,532 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 3rd Oct 17, 4:09 PM
    • 7,374 Posts
    • 7,532 Thanks
    pappa golf
    a: you complied as you had children in your car

    more importantly ,

    b: you did not leave YOUR children in the car

    QED
    • BOBFOC
    • By BOBFOC 3rd Oct 17, 4:19 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    BOBFOC
    a: you complied as you had children in your car

    more importantly ,

    b: you did not leave YOUR children in the car

    QED
    Originally posted by pappa golf
    OK, as I said, I thought the 'background' info would be useful to record here, in the original post, allowing people to understand the situation. I'm pleased it was relevant.

    Does this alter the method of appeal at all?

    I am still going to complain like hell to the Co-Op CEO, but I'll hold off on both until I have heard back.

    Are further photo's required? I have to go out to post something, so I could go to the site again, or maybe tomorrow.

    Thanks
    The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
    ~Frank Zappa
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 3rd Oct 17, 4:35 PM
    • 7,374 Posts
    • 7,532 Thanks
    pappa golf
    better photos of both the yellow and blue signage , very hard to read at the moment ,

    the yellow sign looks to be in addition to the std one (below) , however there does not seem to be a company name and it is a different colour/font to the one below , it also seems to lack a company name / contact info , (against IPC rules) and could be classed as graffiti to the man on the street
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