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  • FIRST POST
    • Themadcow
    • By Themadcow 2nd Oct 17, 10:08 PM
    • 17Posts
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    Themadcow
    NCP PCN - appeal denied going 1 minute over stay due to injured child
    • #1
    • 2nd Oct 17, 10:08 PM
    NCP PCN - appeal denied going 1 minute over stay due to injured child 2nd Oct 17 at 10:08 PM
    Hi all,

    My wife was recently issued a PCN for going 1 minute over stay (exit time 11:45, time on ticket 11:44) in an NCP car park.

    I maybe hastily appealed this, citing that the reason for the delayed exit was that my child had broken their leg, and that my wife needed to spend longer than anticipated transferring them from wheelchair into the car. The NCP car park is opposite a hospital fracture clinic, and I have evidence of the injury.

    Despite this, NCP turned down my appeal citing breach of contract and said "they have considered the comments you have made" but did not directly mention the mitigating circumstances of my child's broken leg.

    Does anyone know what steps I should take next? Obviously they are going with the blackmail approach that I can appeal to POPLA but if unsuccessful I will be liable for £100 rather than £60, which is pretty disgusting.

    Any knowledgeable advice would be welcome!

    Thanks,
Page 1
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 2nd Oct 17, 11:51 PM
    • 7,722 Posts
    • 7,999 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #2
    • 2nd Oct 17, 11:51 PM
    • #2
    • 2nd Oct 17, 11:51 PM
    ask them to explain why they have not allowed a grace period , not less than 10 mins as per BPA code of practice
    Last edited by pappa golf; 03-10-2017 at 12:13 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Oct 17, 12:20 AM
    • 51,754 Posts
    • 65,391 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:20 AM
    • #3
    • 3rd Oct 17, 12:20 AM
    Does anyone know what steps I should take next?
    Win at POPLA, like we pretty much always do against NCP.

    My wife was recently issued a PCN for going 1 minute over stay (exit time 11:45, time on ticket 11:44) in an NCP car park.
    I disagree.

    The PCN cannot possibly have been for a 1 minute overstay. NCP would never have issued it for that.

    It will be for something else, maybe if the wrong VRN was input when paying? Did you send a copy of the PDT ticket with the appeal, and has it got the right VRN on it?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Themadcow
    • By Themadcow 3rd Oct 17, 8:19 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Themadcow
    • #4
    • 3rd Oct 17, 8:19 AM
    • #4
    • 3rd Oct 17, 8:19 AM
    Heya - originally the PCN was for failure to obtain a valid parking ticket, but this was incorrect as the machine was failing to accept the REG number of the car. We produced the pay and display ticket and sent it with the clear expiry of 11:44 compared to the photographic exit time of 11:45 and the explanation. They accepted the ticket was valid, but said that we'd breached contract regardless.

    From what I'm reading above, it's worth taking further as a PCN for 1 minute overstay is highly irregular - irrespective of mitigating circumstances?
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 3rd Oct 17, 8:29 AM
    • 7,418 Posts
    • 6,464 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #5
    • 3rd Oct 17, 8:29 AM
    • #5
    • 3rd Oct 17, 8:29 AM
    Have you contacted the local paper, they love this sort of story, and the PPC will look bad.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 3rd Oct 17, 8:40 AM
    • 2,585 Posts
    • 3,848 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #6
    • 3rd Oct 17, 8:40 AM
    • #6
    • 3rd Oct 17, 8:40 AM
    Heya - originally the PCN was for failure to obtain a valid parking ticket, but this was incorrect as the machine was failing to accept the REG number of the car. We produced the pay and display ticket and sent it with the clear expiry of 11:44 compared to the photographic exit time of 11:45 and the explanation. They accepted the ticket was valid, but said that we'd breached contract regardless.

    From what I'm reading above, it's worth taking further as a PCN for 1 minute overstay is highly irregular - irrespective of mitigating circumstances?
    Originally posted by Themadcow
    No you are not getting this, you do not have a pcn for going over by one minute, you have it as they say you never paid at all, as there is no record of your car registration number in their silly computer system.

    They are saying the ticket never had your vrn on it so it was invalid!

    This is a common problem with these systems and the PPC's love it as they hide behind terms and conditions even though you paid, and it's their system that is the problem.

    You are quite right about "the blackmail approach" that is exactly what it is, don't fall for it.

    You need to take it to POPLA but don't use any mitigation or talk of broken legs etc it won't make any difference, only technicalities work with them.

    Unlikely to ever get in front of a judge but I would bet he would laugh it out of court.
    Last edited by fisherjim; 03-10-2017 at 8:43 AM.
    • Themadcow
    • By Themadcow 3rd Oct 17, 9:00 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Themadcow
    • #7
    • 3rd Oct 17, 9:00 AM
    • #7
    • 3rd Oct 17, 9:00 AM
    I do get it In their appeal response, they recognise the validity of the ticket I provided, but stipulate that because the ticket expired before departure we are still in breach of contract.

    So basically:
    1) PCN issued because they didn't believe we had a parking ticket
    2) Appeal lodged providing parking ticket (1 min expired)
    3) NCP dismiss the appeal, citing that "Whilst I appreciate that you had made payment for parking on the day of contravention, the payment had expired prior to your exit of the car park" also stating that because the notice had been issued "correctly" it can not be cancelled

    They do acknowledge it was a valid ticket, but are trying to fine me for 1 minute overdue regardless.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 3rd Oct 17, 9:16 AM
    • 3,579 Posts
    • 3,624 Thanks
    DoaM
    • #8
    • 3rd Oct 17, 9:16 AM
    • #8
    • 3rd Oct 17, 9:16 AM
    Can you post up a copy of the exact wording of their reply please? (Redact any personal details). In full. (Just in case you are mis-reading and have quoted a part of their reply out of context).

    We don't disbelieve you - we want to be sure you have the strongest possible base from which to defend this.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Themadcow
    • By Themadcow 3rd Oct 17, 9:27 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Themadcow
    • #9
    • 3rd Oct 17, 9:27 AM
    • #9
    • 3rd Oct 17, 9:27 AM
    Thanks - here is the PCN...



    and the appeal rejection...



    They have exit photographed at 11:45:37, and ticket shows 11:44 expiry.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 3rd Oct 17, 9:56 AM
    • 15,915 Posts
    • 24,673 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I’d cause them major inconvenience via both complaint and POPLA appeal

    1. Complain to the BPA (and, importantly, copy to David Dunford of the DVLA) that NCP can’t seem to make up their minds as to exactly for what and why they are trying to impose this charge on you. As NCP state that you have come to the end of their appeals process and you are none the wiser as to the reason for the charge, you are turning to the BPA to resolve, as you need to know exactly what it is you are appealing against.

    Copy all documentation you’ve written/received to the BPA and DVLA.

    Complaints to the BPA and DVLA can be emailed to:

    aos@britishparking.co.uk

    steve.c@britishparking.co.uk

    or (if posting)

    British Parking Association
    Stuart House
    41-43 Perrymount Road
    Haywards Heath
    West Sussex
    RH16 3BN

    and DVLA:

    FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    2. Prepare for drafting your POPLA appeal by studying the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #3 where there are also template appeal paragraphs covering the major winning appeal points. You can do the bulk of the drafting as there’s stuff like ‘Landowner Authority’, ‘Signage’, ‘No Keeper Liability’ (depending on what you said in your initial appeal) and ‘Grace Periods’ which are all pretty generic and apply to most parking charges.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Themadcow
    • By Themadcow 3rd Oct 17, 10:03 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Themadcow
    Great, thanks! Will let the board know how I get on...
    • Themadcow
    • By Themadcow 3rd Oct 17, 10:27 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Themadcow
    Stage one complete... complaint sent to BPA and DVLA regarding unfair practice from NCP and financial discrimination over use of the POPLA system incurring a larger fine.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 3rd Oct 17, 11:22 AM
    • 3,579 Posts
    • 3,624 Thanks
    DoaM
    and financial discrimination over use of the POPLA system incurring a larger fine.
    Originally posted by Themadcow
    Huh? Using POPLA doesn't increase the "fine" ... it merely removes the early payment bribe discount. Sorry but that pony has no legs.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Themadcow
    • By Themadcow 3rd Oct 17, 11:27 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Themadcow
    Huh? Using POPLA doesn't increase the "fine" ... it merely removes the early payment bribe discount. Sorry but that pony has no legs.
    Originally posted by DoaM
    I'm aware that legally it has no grounds, but I'd argue all day long that the real cost is £60 and that the £100 is effectively an additional penalty. By removing the ability to claim the early payment discount if you lodge an independent appeal, they are clearly discriminating against those who are less able to pay the additional £40. There is no actual cost to them of a delay, other than marginal interest rate gains, so the extra £40 is nothing more than a disincentive to appeal.

    I'm not arguing my own case against paying the £100, I'm arguing that such a system is discrimination - and lobbying for a rule change.
    Last edited by Themadcow; 03-10-2017 at 11:30 AM.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 3rd Oct 17, 12:14 PM
    • 3,875 Posts
    • 5,462 Thanks
    Half_way
    don't forget to mention the improper use of your personal data, as it was well within the grace period, if claiming for an overstay.
    Also, who approved the anpr camera? stating an approved device is misleading ad it infers some official regulated service/calibration etc, even in reality councils can not use anpr due to the inaccuracies inherent in anpr set ups.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Oct 17, 1:34 PM
    • 51,754 Posts
    • 65,391 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    NCP dismiss the appeal, citing that "Whilst I appreciate that you had made payment for parking on the day of contravention, the payment had expired prior to your exit of the car park" also stating that because the notice had been issued "correctly" it can not be cancelled

    They do acknowledge it was a valid ticket, but are trying to fine me for 1 minute overdue regardless.
    Wow wow wow - absolutely deserves the BPA complaint! Never seen such a stupid rejection letter, they'd have been all right(ish) if they'd said, we are still saying you breached the contract because you didn't put the VRN in, but instead they've gone for the fact you were ONE minute over by the time the car passed the exit!

    Shocking. Someone at NCP needs a bit of retraining, it seems.

    Keep an eye on your POPLA deadline (30 days from rejection) and if the BPA haven't dealt with this and got it cancelled, make sure you work on your POPLA appeal with our help, with a good week to spare.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 3rd Oct 17, 3:50 PM
    • 2,585 Posts
    • 3,848 Thanks
    fisherjim
    I was going to say this is unbelievable but then again you are dealing with total Muppets.

    It seems like the NCP scammers office can't get the replies out fast enough and don't even read their own drivel, they are obviously mixing up what they are doing!



    ...the extra £40 is nothing more than a disincentive to appeal.
    Originally posted by Themadcow
    You are perfectly correct with this.

    .... and lobbying for a rule change.
    Originally posted by Themadcow
    However you will never succeed with this even councils do it:
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 3rd Oct 17, 3:57 PM
    • 3,579 Posts
    • 3,624 Thanks
    DoaM
    However you will never succeed with this even councils do it:
    Originally posted by fisherjim
    Which was why I made the pony/legs comment.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 3rd Oct 17, 6:19 PM
    • 15,915 Posts
    • 24,673 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I'm aware that legally it has no grounds, but I'd argue all day long that the real cost is £60 and that the £100 is effectively an additional penalty. By removing the ability to claim the early payment discount if you lodge an independent appeal, they are clearly discriminating against those who are less able to pay the additional £40. There is no actual cost to them of a delay, other than marginal interest rate gains, so the extra £40 is nothing more than a disincentive to appeal.

    I'm not arguing my own case against paying the £100, I'm arguing that such a system is discrimination - and lobbying for a rule change.
    Originally posted by Themadcow
    You’re barking up the wrong red herring there. Pointless, it’s been done to death!

    Have you complained about the real issue here - that you don’t know what it is you’re appealing against, as NCP don’t seem to know their 4rse from their elbow in your case?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 3rd Oct 17, 6:26 PM
    • 7,418 Posts
    • 6,464 Thanks
    The Deep
    But surely you had to queue to leave the car park. This is not counted as time parked.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
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