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  • FIRST POST
    • leighavfc
    • By leighavfc 2nd Oct 17, 9:51 PM
    • 183Posts
    • 125Thanks
    leighavfc
    Broken contract?
    • #1
    • 2nd Oct 17, 9:51 PM
    Broken contract? 2nd Oct 17 at 9:51 PM
    Hi all

    I have a really rubbish one for me personally to ask your advice about.

    Basically to cut a long story short, one of my best friends has worked for my family's company for the past 12 years. We were good friends long before working together, never had any issues with each other etc.

    Around about a month ago he went to my dad to tell him that he wanted to leave to help his dad start up his own company. Whilst shocked and gutted my dad understood why he wanted to leave and respected his decision. In turn my dad asked if he could work a 11 week notice period to enable us to replace him, as he was a very important member of the company. We are only a small company with 6 people max in at any one time, so you can imagine we are like a little family. He agreed and the following day brought his notice in to suit what was agreed the day before, i.e leave after 11 week notice period.

    On Sunday morning my dad received a text message from said person telling him he was signing himself off sick with stress because of everything going on... Now this absolutely amazed me as he has been his normal jokey self, ive known the lad most of my life, i know when something is up. Over the weekend he has been out doing various things with his missus, and was even drinking yesterday evening out somewhere. I also saw him at the tip not long after my dad phoned me to tell me what was going on, i was too angry too acknowledge him and pretended i didn't see him as we drove past. Imo there is nothing wrong and he just wants to get started with his dad quicker than he agreed to.

    My dad asked him to attend a meeting on Monday (today) to finalize stuff and get it all sorted, for him to hand keys to the factory over etc. He replied saying the doctor had told him to rest and he was not up to it, adamant that he wasn't up for coming in for a meeting. My dad then said to him well i think you ought to get this sorted and i will see you at 12pm tomorrow. He didnt show up at all, no contact nothing.

    I believe he has broken the terms of his contract, and although i just want to put a line under this and see the back of him and this, part of me thinks we should pursue to prove a point?

    The sad thing in all this is he hasn't said a word too me about it, and we are like brothers (so i thought).

    Thanks for reading if you got this far
    DEBT FREE AS OF 28/6/17
Page 2
    • leighavfc
    • By leighavfc 3rd Oct 17, 1:56 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    leighavfc
    That's generally what goes on in forums...
    Originally posted by NineDeuce
    Thanks Sarky

    You are bantosaurus rex and i claim my 5 pounds
    DEBT FREE AS OF 28/6/17
    • paddyrg
    • By paddyrg 3rd Oct 17, 1:57 PM
    • 13,085 Posts
    • 11,151 Thanks
    paddyrg
    Stop, breathe, and recognise this is just a part of employing people that your mate is yet to learn in his own venture with his father. Don't take it personally, as hard as that is, but cut him loose once the paperwork is all done and normalised. Even just ask him if he wants to be released form contract right away? It's in no way ideal, but enforcing contractual terms is likely to be a lumpy affair anyway if he's there under protest with you not trusting him any more either - a quick, clean break might be better all round.
    • NineDeuce
    • By NineDeuce 3rd Oct 17, 2:04 PM
    • 540 Posts
    • 481 Thanks
    NineDeuce
    If you aren't able to read a handful of short paragraphs you wouldn't have been capable of helping the op anyway.
    Originally posted by Energize
    I have a good reputation on helping....
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 3rd Oct 17, 2:07 PM
    • 1,315 Posts
    • 1,072 Thanks
    Comms69
    No obviously not........ we were being whats called helpful to a friend at the time. - Hence my earlier comments - separate your professional and personal attitude I understand your comment now about policys, and yes maybe we should have got rid but it stopped soon after and didnt really have many issues after that. Point taken there. - good

    Im not sure hence why im asking, solicitor seems to think we have a case, tbh i dont have the contracts in front of me to tell you all the details, so maybe im asking an unanswerable question without the relevant info. Sorry my head is all over the gaff at the minute.
    Originally posted by leighavfc
    What solicitor?! - what happens when someone is sick, what is the policy? Let's say you weren't feeling well tomorrow, what would you do?


    I can tell you now, that using a solicitor in this case would be the BIGGEST mistake you could make. Those costs are not recoverable. You will spend thousands, chasing hundreds (at best!)
    • Cheeky_Monkey
    • By Cheeky_Monkey 3rd Oct 17, 2:50 PM
    • 1,432 Posts
    • 2,849 Thanks
    Cheeky_Monkey
    i dont have the contracts in front of me to tell you all the details, so maybe im asking an unanswerable question without the relevant info.
    Originally posted by leighavfc
    Yes, it would've been better to have the information to hand before posting to avoid wasting people's time and receiving replies that may not be relevant
    I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure
    • leighavfc
    • By leighavfc 3rd Oct 17, 3:13 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    leighavfc
    Stop, breathe, and recognise this is just a part of employing people that your mate is yet to learn in his own venture with his father. Don't take it personally, as hard as that is, but cut him loose once the paperwork is all done and normalised. Even just ask him if he wants to be released form contract right away? It's in no way ideal, but enforcing contractual terms is likely to be a lumpy affair anyway if he's there under protest with you not trusting him any more either - a quick, clean break might be better all round.
    Originally posted by paddyrg

    Yep i agree totally, im not bitter and twisted enough to wish harm or trouble on people. In this instance though i hope he does get something like this pop up as he will remember the way he did it to us. I think were going to put him on ssp until his notice period is up in November some time.

    Ive already cut him loose in my head tbh, just waiting for us to be able to say goodbye now really. Although im sure i wont actually see him until after his notice is done as he is avoiding any contact with us.

    Another thing, he still has the keys to the factory and other bits of company property which we have requested back to no avail so far. Changed the locks this morning incase he decides to come in when were not here and cause damage (im sure he wont but never say never ey?).

    Its going to be soooo awkward from now on as we have many mutual friends that we drink with etc. Many of them will side with him probably due to him knowing them longer etc but i couldnt really care tbh as they are associates rather than mates to me.

    Will reply more around 8pm folks, thanks for your comments so far
    DEBT FREE AS OF 28/6/17
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 3rd Oct 17, 4:13 PM
    • 10,053 Posts
    • 8,127 Thanks
    lincroft1710
    Send him a letter and say that you will release him from his contract with immediate effect if he is agreeable. Far better than paying sick pay or having a disgruntled employee in the workplace for 10 weeks
    • fiisch
    • By fiisch 3rd Oct 17, 5:03 PM
    • 208 Posts
    • 90 Thanks
    fiisch
    You can't force someone to work who doesn't want to. Is it really in your company's best interests to try and drag him back?

    If it was me, I'd accept the fact that he wants to leave (I wouldn't be happy about it, but it is what it is), and focus on filling the void.

    It might be cheaper/less hassle in the long run to offer him immediate mutual termination, rather than have this situation drag out, so you can all move on as quickly as possible. What role does he perform? Could it be performed by an interim contractor available for immediate start in the meantime, just while you sort out a more permanent replacement?


    This doesn't detract from the fact that he has been a complete **** and very disloyal - yes he doesn't owe you anything, but he could/should have worked his notice - particularly given the personal relationship. I suspect there is more to his reason for leaving that has prompted this hasty departure.
    Last edited by fiisch; 03-10-2017 at 5:06 PM.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 3rd Oct 17, 5:10 PM
    • 1,315 Posts
    • 1,072 Thanks
    Comms69
    You can't force someone to work who doesn't want to. Is it really in your company's best interests to try and drag him back?

    If it was me, I'd accept the fact that he wants to leave (I wouldn't be happy about it, but it is what it is), and focus on filling the void.

    It might be cheaper/less hassle in the long run to offer him immediate mutual termination, rather than have this situation drag out, so you can all move on as quickly as possible. What role does he perform? Could it be performed by an interim contractor available for immediate start in the meantime, just while you sort out a more permanent replacement?


    This doesn't detract from the fact that he has been a complete **** and very disloyal - yes he doesn't owe you anything, but he could/should have worked his notice - particularly given the personal relationship. I suspect there is more to his reason for leaving that has prompted this hasty departure.
    Originally posted by fiisch
    Well we don't know that do we? He's called in sick, not failed to turn up
    • leighavfc
    • By leighavfc 3rd Oct 17, 8:18 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    leighavfc
    Hi all

    Right let me get you up to date without quoting everyone individually lol

    My dad again text our employee last night to ask him to attend a meeting at work to sort this all out, and probably let him go there and then (which is what he wishes we think !!). He again failed to respond and also turn up to the meeting today.

    Around about 12.30pm today my dad heard the letterbox go after the postman had been, so he wondered who it was. As he looked out window ,said employee girlfriend's car was driving past. So either he or she have popped his self certification form in to us. If it was him, there is no reason what so ever for him not to pop in to sort it. There are no hostilities we would just like to know

    A. what is going on with him, is he ill? Or is there another reason to this?

    B. what he wants to do about it from here on in? Does he want to leave earlier than notice period (good chance this is the case obviously).

    C. To get our keys and property back belonging to the company. He never left them today with his note, why not? i just dont get it at all really.

    That is not being unreasonable on our part in my opinion, what do you think?

    There is something fishy about all this, weather its him just wanting to leave early or something else i dont know. Im pretty certain he is not stressed out about anything, hes got nothing to be stressed about as far as i know. We talk about everything, funnily enough apart from whats happening at the moment. Maybe he has got something wrong somewhere, but no one knows what or why, even mutual friends.

    Its terribly sad that its ending this way at the minute, were all upset about it and im sure somewhere deep down he wont be feeling great about it either. If i could just understand what or why then everything would be fine again, as long as its nothing bad towards us obviously.

    I know i should maintain a professional stance on this, and i am to an extent but i am finding it tough as i want to help if there is a problem. Maybe his actions are telling me something else though? The picture of him being out and about drinking and enjoying himself tell me that this is just a front, this is why i am suspicious. If he was told to rest by doctor, why is he doing DIY and then me seeing him up the tip. Or has he started working for his dad ? Some might say him being out is stress relief, but im not sure if im stressed i would be out the amount he has in such a short period of time. Doesn't smack me as being too stressed to work.

    All this would have been sorted today or yesterday if he had just replied or responded to us, this is very unreasonable and surely he has to maintain some contact with us?

    Sorry for long post, i might sound like im ranting. Im trying not too but i find it good to get it out on here !
    Last edited by leighavfc; 03-10-2017 at 8:23 PM.
    DEBT FREE AS OF 28/6/17
    • leighavfc
    • By leighavfc 3rd Oct 17, 8:36 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    leighavfc
    You can't force someone to work who doesn't want to. Is it really in your company's best interests to try and drag him back?

    If it was me, I'd accept the fact that he wants to leave (I wouldn't be happy about it, but it is what it is), and focus on filling the void.

    It might be cheaper/less hassle in the long run to offer him immediate mutual termination, rather than have this situation drag out, so you can all move on as quickly as possible. What role does he perform? Could it be performed by an interim contractor available for immediate start in the meantime, just while you sort out a more permanent replacement?


    This doesn't detract from the fact that he has been a complete **** and very disloyal - yes he doesn't owe you anything, but he could/should have worked his notice - particularly given the personal relationship. I suspect there is more to his reason for leaving that has prompted this hasty departure.
    Originally posted by fiisch
    Hi

    No we are fully prepared mentally to let him go, the only reason we wanted him to work 11 week period was for transition to be smooth. Also we were planning to get another body in to train up as much as possible in that time, not his problem admittedly although he did agree to all this.

    He is assistant manager to me if you like, and when the old man is away i cover my dad whilst he runs the factory, we are a very small company so we dont have assigned titles as such. Everybody knows there role and does exactly as expected of them. So he is not easily replaceable, he has skills that the rest of us dont etc. We will find somebody but as you all know its a minefield out there, could be first candidate or 100th before we get the right one.

    Now that last paragraph you write was exactly my trail of thought, why cant he just speak to us like all the other things we have spoke about over the years. This is what hurts the most, maybe he doesn't value our relationship as much as i do? Again this is why i suspect there is something else going on, maybe there is another bomb to be dropped by him yet......
    DEBT FREE AS OF 28/6/17
    • leighavfc
    • By leighavfc 3rd Oct 17, 9:25 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    leighavfc
    Send him a letter and say that you will release him from his contract with immediate effect if he is agreeable. Far better than paying sick pay or having a disgruntled employee in the workplace for 10 weeks
    Originally posted by lincroft1710
    Good point, this would force his hand also. Think i will get something together tomorrow and post it. Im 99% sure this is what he wants so he can do his courses and get his cards and documents needed to work etc etc. He did mention to me when he initially said he was leaving that he would need to do a expensive course his dad was paying for. Maybe he will start working for his dad during this period, this wouldn't surprise me either. Whole thing is sketchy now he dropped that out Sunday.... Via text btw!
    DEBT FREE AS OF 28/6/17
    • bugslet
    • By bugslet 4th Oct 17, 8:02 AM
    • 5,778 Posts
    • 28,296 Thanks
    bugslet
    No obviously not........ we were being whats called helpful to a friend at the time. I understand your comment now about policys, and yes maybe we should have got rid but it stopped soon after and didnt really have many issues after that. Point taken there.

    Im not sure hence why im asking, solicitor seems to think we have a case, tbh i dont have the contracts in front of me to tell you all the details, so maybe im asking an unanswerable question without the relevant info. Sorry my head is all over the gaff at the minute.
    Originally posted by leighavfc
    Skip the solicitor - it's really not worth it. Unless you are the solicitor!

    Send him a letter and say that you will release him from his contract with immediate effect if he is agreeable. Far better than paying sick pay or having a disgruntled employee in the workplace for 10 weeks
    Originally posted by lincroft1710
    I'd go for that as well. Whilst you cannot know what is going on inside his head and we can't know the full story from just your side ( no disrespect intended), it does sound as if he basically wants to crack on and help out his Dad and 11 weeks is too long for a notice period.

    Hi all

    My dad again text our employee last night to ask him to attend a meeting at work to sort this all out, and probably let him go there and then (which is what he wishes we think !!). He again failed to respond and also turn up to the meeting today.

    Around about 12.30pm today my dad heard the letterbox go after the postman had been, so he wondered who it was. As he looked out window ,said employee girlfriend's car was driving past. So either he or she have popped his self certification form in to us. If it was him, there is no reason what so ever for him not to pop in to sort it. There are no hostilities we would just like to know

    A. what is going on with him, is he ill? Or is there another reason to this?

    B. what he wants to do about it from here on in? Does he want to leave earlier than notice period (good chance this is the case obviously).

    C. To get our keys and property back belonging to the company. He never left them today with his note, why not? i just dont get it at all really.

    That is not being unreasonable on our part in my opinion, what do you think?
    !
    Originally posted by leighavfc
    A. No one can answer if he is ill - you now have a sick note, so you need to treat it as if he is ill. He has given you notice that preceeded the sick note. Have you established how long his contractual notice period is from his contract of employment.

    From your perspective you want a short notice period because otherwise you are shelling out SSP/full sick pay. ANd because, if I read this right, even if he came back and worked for 11 weeks, the atmosphere would be awful and it's just not worth it.

    B. Again, no idea what is in his head. But it looks as if he wants to leave early.

    C. You need to seperate the personal from work and now. If he isn't talking to you, why not just call round ( having checked his contractual notice period), and say 'Look, it's X weeks, if you want to go earlier, then do so, but be straight with us. What's your drop dead date? Once you have a date, be it this Friday or ten weeks time, then you can arrange handover of keys etc.

    It may not be right that you have to do the bending over backwards, but be the big man. He's going. It seems he doesn't want to be there and is being an @rse about it, you don't have to be the equivalent.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 4th Oct 17, 9:46 AM
    • 1,315 Posts
    • 1,072 Thanks
    Comms69
    Hi all

    Right let me get you up to date without quoting everyone individually lol

    My dad again text our employee last night to ask him to attend a meeting at work to sort this all out - Sort what out? he's called in sick and is entitled to self-certify for 7 days , and probably let him go there and then (which is what he wishes we think !!). He again failed to respond and also turn up to the meeting today. - You're going to sack a long term employee on sick leave? Fancy getting sued?

    Around about 12.30pm today my dad heard the letterbox go after the postman had been, so he wondered who it was. As he looked out window ,said employee girlfriend's car was driving past. So either he or she have popped his self certification form in to us. If it was him, there is no reason what so ever for him not to pop in to sort it. There are no hostilities we would just like to know - HE DOESNT HAVE TO!

    A. what is going on with him, is he ill? Or is there another reason to this? - FGS it doesn't matter!

    B. what he wants to do about it from here on in? Does he want to leave earlier than notice period (good chance this is the case obviously). - At the minute he's sick, so stop pressuring him

    C. To get our keys and property back belonging to the company. He never left them today with his note, why not? i just dont get it at all really. - BECAUSE HES STILL AN EMPLOYEE?

    That is not being unreasonable on our part in my opinion, what do you think? - yes, incredibly so!

    There is something fishy about all this, weather its him just wanting to leave early or something else i dont know. - or you and your dad are totally overreacting? Im pretty certain he is not stressed out about anything, hes got nothing to be stressed about as far as i know. - Are you his GP? His mental health support worker? His parent? His partner? - just fyi he could have a serious disease, just lost someone, or hit with a mental health condition. We talk about everything, funnily enough apart from whats happening at the moment. Maybe he has got something wrong somewhere, but no one knows what or why, even mutual friends. - And why should they?

    Its terribly sad that its ending this way at the minute, were all upset about it and im sure somewhere deep down he wont be feeling great about it either. If i could just understand what or why then everything would be fine again, as long as its nothing bad towards us obviously. - Understand a simple premise - he is ill.

    I know i should maintain a professional stance on this - and you plan to start when? , and i am to an extent - literally no you aren't. but i am finding it tough as i want to help if there is a problem. - he clearly doesn't want your help. Maybe his actions are telling me something else though? The picture of him being out and about drinking and enjoying himself tell me that this is just a front, this is why i am suspicious. If he was told to rest by doctor, why is he doing DIY and then me seeing him up the tip. Or has he started working for his dad ? Some might say him being out is stress relief, but im not sure if im stressed i would be out the amount he has in such a short period of time. Doesn't smack me as being too stressed to work. - I give in....

    All this would have been sorted today or yesterday if he had just replied or responded to us, this is very unreasonable and surely he has to maintain some contact with us? - what's your policy say? Still haven't actually bothered to post that

    Sorry for long post, i might sound like im ranting. Im trying not too but i find it good to get it out on here !
    Originally posted by leighavfc


    Unfair dismissal case coming up I reckon....
    • leighavfc
    • By leighavfc 4th Oct 17, 10:13 AM
    • 183 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    leighavfc
    Comms... we are not sacking anyone FGS. I have never said that. we simply want to sort this out with one way other reasonably... your talking as if were being unreasonable simpky not the case
    DEBT FREE AS OF 28/6/17
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 4th Oct 17, 10:21 AM
    • 1,315 Posts
    • 1,072 Thanks
    Comms69
    Comms... we are not sacking anyone FGS. I have never said that. we simply want to sort this out with one way other reasonably... your talking as if were being unreasonable simpky not the case
    Originally posted by leighavfc


    You are being unreasonable. I have no motive to choose one side over the other, so from a neutral 3rd party point of view - you are bordering on harassment
    • leighavfc
    • By leighavfc 4th Oct 17, 10:43 AM
    • 183 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    leighavfc
    Ok were being unreasonable then. Solved. Il wrap this thread up then. Thanks all for your comments, many taken on board and will use going forward!
    DEBT FREE AS OF 28/6/17
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 4th Oct 17, 10:44 AM
    • 16,148 Posts
    • 40,063 Thanks
    FBaby
    You are over thinking it all. It doesn't matter if, when, why. The most likely scenario is that he agreed the 11 weeks because he wanted to be fair to him. He went home, told his dad and his dad went beserk because he needs him to start right away on a project.

    He is torn apart as to what to do, and because he is too coward to come and say that he needs to be let go despite his confirmation of the notice, he's decided to take the easy option of going off sick. He is not engaging because he knows his actions are coward. He got his girlfriend to come to avoid speaking for the same reason.

    I too expect he wants your organisation to take charge and make the decisions for him, so writing to him to suggest reducing the notice to none if that suits him is best and will probably return a 'that's fine, I agree'. He can then get on with his new role relieved of guilt.
    • leighavfc
    • By leighavfc 4th Oct 17, 12:24 PM
    • 183 Posts
    • 125 Thanks
    leighavfc
    You are over thinking it all. It doesn't matter if, when, why. The most likely scenario is that he agreed the 11 weeks because he wanted to be fair to him. He went home, told his dad and his dad went beserk because he needs him to start right away on a project.

    He is torn apart as to what to do, and because he is too coward to come and say that he needs to be let go despite his confirmation of the notice, he's decided to take the easy option of going off sick. He is not engaging because he knows his actions are coward. He got his girlfriend to come to avoid speaking for the same reason.

    I too expect he wants your organisation to take charge and make the decisions for him, so writing to him to suggest reducing the notice to none if that suits him is best and will probably return a 'that's fine, I agree'. He can then get on with his new role relieved of guilt.
    Originally posted by FBaby
    Totally agree with all of this, this is the way we will go i think. Probably the fairest and most amicable at the end of the day.

    I agree i am taking this far too personally at this moment, im mellowing on the work front about it by the hour. That at least is a little relief for me.

    I will pursue the personal issues when i see him... and i will see him around. We live less than a mile apart and we have many mutual friends. Shame all this but o well thats life, time to move on. Lessons learned about working with friends... big no no from now on. Dont want to feel this crap again!
    DEBT FREE AS OF 28/6/17
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 4th Oct 17, 12:44 PM
    • 37,873 Posts
    • 34,280 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    Apart from keys, which you now don't need back because you've changed the locks, what property does he have? Is it worth pursuing getting it back, or just let it go?
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