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  • FIRST POST
    • Stoke
    • By Stoke 2nd Oct 17, 6:07 PM
    • 1,933Posts
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    Stoke
    Why would anyone cycle to work?
    • #1
    • 2nd Oct 17, 6:07 PM
    Why would anyone cycle to work? 2nd Oct 17 at 6:07 PM
    This morning, on the way into work, I saw a cyclist nearly get knocked off by two different cars in the space of 20 seconds.

    Then, half an hour later, I saw another cyclist nearly get knocked off, again we're talking inches.

    It's an absolute bloody minefield out there with all the crap drivers. It's a shame as cyclists do other road users and the world a favour in reality, but they aren't half treated with contempt.

    I've always considered cycling to work, but nah, it's too risky tbh.
    Last edited by Stoke; 02-10-2017 at 6:12 PM.
Page 4
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 9th Oct 17, 2:52 PM
    • 4,190 Posts
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    jack_pott
    it might be perceived that way by lower socio economic classes, but in reality cyclists are generally higher socioeconomic groups in the UK - as I'm sure you acknowedge
    Originally posted by andrewf75
    It was perceptions that I was talking about.
    I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche
    • andrewf75
    • By andrewf75 9th Oct 17, 2:56 PM
    • 7,603 Posts
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    andrewf75
    No, they pretend that helmets reduce the number of deaths from head injuries without producing the evidence to support their claim.
    Originally posted by jack_pott
    you're missing the point again!
    all I care about is that me wearing a helmet will give me some protection if I crash and hit my head
    The fact that it isn't possible to prove statistically is irrelevant.
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 9th Oct 17, 2:58 PM
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    jack_pott
    Aren't safety features - cycling helmets, seat beats etc. - there to prevent serious injury in the event of an accident, not to prevent the accident in the first place?
    Originally posted by bertikusmaximus
    As I said above, helmets are purported to reduce the number of deaths from head injuries, but your risk of getting a head injury depends on two factors:

    1) The survivability of the impact
    2) The probability of the impact occurring in the first place.

    The arguments in favour of helmets repeatedly concentrate on the first whilst systematically ignoring the second. We've been through this pantomime 30-odd years ago with seatbelts, and learned nothing from it.
    Last edited by jack_pott; 09-10-2017 at 3:07 PM.
    I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 9th Oct 17, 3:01 PM
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    jack_pott
    all I care about is that me wearing a helmet will give me some protection if I crash and hit my head.
    Originally posted by andrewf75
    So why don't you care about the helmet increasing your risk of having a crash in the first place? Why don't you care about your overall risk of having a head injury?
    I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 9th Oct 17, 3:10 PM
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    scd3scd4
    What is all the talk about death. High impact to the head may not kill but I don't recommend it.

    Just the other night I rode home in the dark. Yes with lights, on the Thames footpath. I hit my head on a low branch. I was grateful I had a helmet on.

    Wearing a helmet reduces risk as do lights and bright clothing.
    • andrewf75
    • By andrewf75 9th Oct 17, 3:16 PM
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    andrewf75
    So why don't you care about the helmet increasing your risk of having a crash in the first place? Why don't you care about your overall risk of having a head injury?
    Originally posted by jack_pott
    Because 1) I don't believe that drivers are more likely to crash into me if I'm wearing a helmet
    and 2) even if they are, I think the protection it offers me in the event of any crash, not necessarily with a vehicle, overrides that
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 9th Oct 17, 3:24 PM
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    jack_pott
    Just the other night I rode home in the dark. Yes with lights, on the Thames footpath. I hit my head on a low branch. I was grateful I had a helmet on.
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    And I would have died on 9.11.85 if I hadn't been wearing a seatbelt, but that doesn't prove that seatbelts reduced the number of deaths on the road.
    Wearing a helmet reduces risk as do lights and bright clothing.
    Reduces what risk? As I've just said, your overall risk of getting hurt depends on the risk of having the accident in the first place not just the survivability of the impact. (Bright clothing is an acknowledgement of that, obviously.)
    I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 9th Oct 17, 3:35 PM
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    scd3scd4
    And I would have died on 9.11.85 if I hadn't been wearing a seatbelt, but that doesn't prove that seatbelts reduced the number of deaths on the road.
    Reduces what risk? As I've just said, your overall risk of getting hurt depends on the risk of having the accident in the first place not just the survivability of the impact. (Bright clothing is an acknowledgement of that, obviously.)
    Originally posted by jack_pott
    You keep saying died and I keep correcting you. I dont wear it just so I dont die. I know you keep saying this and that and we keep replying.

    Risk??........human error, other people actions. Snow, rain......... Do you think anyone is taking you seriously?

    I have been riding most days for 4 years. One day in the winter last year I slipped. It was wet and I took a corner too sharp. I hit my head. I am and was grateful for a helmet. You can debate and hypothesise all you want it means nothing. I will continue to wear one and if you don't want to then dont. No one really cares do they?
    Last edited by scd3scd4; 09-10-2017 at 3:38 PM.
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 9th Oct 17, 3:47 PM
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    jack_pott
    Because 1) I don't believe that drivers are more likely to crash into me if I'm wearing a helmet
    and 2) even if they are, I think the protection it offers me in the event of any crash, not necessarily with a vehicle, overrides that
    Originally posted by andrewf75
    A helmet doesn't just affect drivers behaviour, it affects yours to. As I keep saying it's a matter of common experience that people behave more carefully when they see danger. Are you going to tell me that:

    People don't walk more carefully on an icy pavement than a clean dry one?
    Aren't more careful with a sharp knife than a blunt one?
    Don't give a tiger a wider berth than a hamster?
    Don't drive slower round a sharp bend than a wider one?

    etc etc etc.

    AFAIK there has been only one experiment anywhere in the world that has looked at the overall risk of head injuries compared between a group of helmet wearers and a control group of non-wearers, rather than just comparing survivability of the impact.

    In the 1970s, the states of the USA were divided into two groups, and the compulsory motorcycle helmet legislation was revoked for one half of the population and retained for the other. Head injuries were higher in the group that retained the compulsory helmets.

    It's been the same story with seatbelts, there was no reduction in road deaths at the point they were introduced, but they led to an increase in the number of pedestrians and cyclists killed. So seatbelts merely served to transfer the risk from those who create the hazard, to those who don't.
    I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 9th Oct 17, 3:51 PM
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    • 5,329 Thanks
    jack_pott
    I have been riding most days for 4 years. One day in the winter last year I slipped. It was wet and I took a corner too sharp. I hit my head. I am and was grateful for a helmet.
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    I've cycled on snow and ice too, but I didn't slip. Perhaps that's because not wearing a helmet made me ride more carefully.
    I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche
    • andrewf75
    • By andrewf75 9th Oct 17, 3:59 PM
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    andrewf75
    A helmet doesn't just affect drivers behaviour, it affects yours to. As I keep saying it's a matter of common experience that people behave more carefully when they see danger. Are you going to tell me that:

    People don't walk more carefully on an icy pavement than a clean dry one?
    Aren't more careful with a sharp knife than a blunt one?
    Don't give a tiger a wider berth than a hamster?
    Don't drive slower round a sharp bend than a wider one?

    etc etc etc.
    Originally posted by jack_pott
    it would only affect my behaviour if I thought my helmet protected me 100% from everything. As I know it doesn't, it makes not a shred of difference to how I cycle. Its just one simple thing I can do...

    I think you can read too much into something, you're trying to over-complicate a very simple situation. Whatever these studies say, the weight of opinion and common sense is a better judge!
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 9th Oct 17, 4:00 PM
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    jack_pott
    Do you think anyone is taking you seriously?
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    No, because people are not interested in objective evidence, and don't understand the way they are manipulated by their own minds.

    For example, when there is a well-publicised train crash people will desert the railways for the roads despite being in more danger on the roads. This is because of the Availability Heuristic, people perceive the probability of something happening according to how easily it springs to mind and not how probable it actually is.
    I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 9th Oct 17, 4:08 PM
    • 455 Posts
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    scd3scd4
    I've cycled on snow and ice too, but I didn't slip. Perhaps that's because not wearing a helmet made me ride more carefully.
    Originally posted by jack_pott
    Maybe you don't cycle 20 miles most days all year. Risk increases with frequency.
    Last edited by scd3scd4; 09-10-2017 at 4:11 PM.
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 9th Oct 17, 4:10 PM
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    jack_pott
    it makes not a shred of difference to how I cycle.
    Originally posted by andrewf75
    So how did you measure that?

    For example, I've cited the case of the seatbelts, I'm sure drivers would tell me that their belts make not a shred of difference to the way they drive too, and why should they have noticed? The extra accidents required to wipe out all the benefits of seat belts is only of the order of one in a million miles or so. How could any one individual driver possibly be in a position to perceive that?

    the weight of opinion and common sense is a better judge!
    It was public opinion and common sense that taught us the earth is flat and that the sun orbits around it. "Common sense" is for people who aren't interested in thinking.
    I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 9th Oct 17, 4:14 PM
    • 455 Posts
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    scd3scd4
    Do using lights make a person take chances??............
    Last edited by scd3scd4; 09-10-2017 at 4:30 PM.
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 9th Oct 17, 4:18 PM
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    jack_pott
    Maybe you don't cycle 20 miles most days all year. Risk increases with frequency.
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    The bike parked next to me here has done 41,873 miles, I don't have records for the previous ones. In that time I've had just one crash with no injury other than a graze on my leg.
    I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche
    • andrewf75
    • By andrewf75 9th Oct 17, 4:25 PM
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    andrewf75
    So how did you measure that?
    Originally posted by jack_pott
    You can't measure everything.

    It was public opinion and common sense that taught us the earth is flat and that the sun orbits around it. "Common sense" is for people who aren't interested in thinking.
    just because expert opinion and common sense is occasionally wrong doesn't mean it isn't still the best judge.
    Thinking outside the box is good, but you can take it to extremes!
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 9th Oct 17, 4:25 PM
    • 455 Posts
    • 366 Thanks
    scd3scd4
    The bike parked next to me here has done 41,873 miles, I don't have records for the previous ones. In that time I've had just one crash with no injury other than a graze on my leg.
    Originally posted by jack_pott
    Thats great. I knew an old lady who lived till 80 plus while smoking 60 a day all her life. I suppose that puts an end to the cancer scare all them Drs talk about.

    Of course not wearing a helmet stops others actions and human error. Its like a Mutant special power.
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 9th Oct 17, 4:29 PM
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    scd3scd4
    I would not ride any different with or without a helmet. Most of the time I forget I have it on.
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 9th Oct 17, 4:29 PM
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    jack_pott
    Do using lights make a person take chances
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    Here's a good example that's enshrined in law:

    If you use dynamo lights with no standlight it's illegal to stop on the crest of the road whilst waiting to turn right. Fit a standlight or battery lights on the other hand, and you're now permitted to risk stopping in the centre of the road at night, just for the convenience of making an easier right turn.
    I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche
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