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    • Fermion
    • By Fermion 1st Oct 17, 12:13 PM
    • 63Posts
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    Fermion
    Charity Box - probate asset?
    • #1
    • 1st Oct 17, 12:13 PM
    Charity Box - probate asset? 1st Oct 17 at 12:13 PM
    Quick question for the probate experts - I'm Executor and handling my Mothers estate and probate. We have found a Charity Collection Box for the "The Children Society" with contents of circa £150.

    My question,
    (a) is this an asset of the Children's Society which I simply hand across to the nearest Children's Society Shop? or
    (b) Are the contents part of my Mothers Estate which I need to include as a cash asset for probate purposes but then amend the distribution post probate to include the Children's Society as an extra beneficiary?
Page 2
    • securityguy
    • By securityguy 2nd Oct 17, 1:31 PM
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    securityguy
    Assuming the box is a sealed charity one with the usual charity logo and lettering then it clearly belongs to the charity
    Originally posted by Yorkshireman99
    Agree.

    along with any contents
    Hmm. Any contents? OK, so if I put a gram of cocaine in the charity box and leave it on my shelf, I'm in the clear when old bill comes a calling, but the charity is on the hook for possession of a Class A substance? I don't think that's true for a second.

    It IS different from a run of the mill money box because it is designed for the specific purpose of collecting money for the charity.
    Designed, sure. In law...?

    The moment anyone puts money in this belongs to the charity. End of story really....If anyone other than the charity subsequently takes money from the box that is theft, plain and simple.
    You'll have some law to hand for something so plain and simple, I take it?

    I repeat: morally I absolutely agree with you. I don't think it's at all obvious that the provenance of the contents of a cashbox in the possession of a deceased is irrelevant.

    Here's another example: I put all my money in a charity box and the declare myself bankrupt. Do my creditors _really_ have no claim, at all, on the contents?
    Last edited by securityguy; 02-10-2017 at 1:40 PM.
    • securityguy
    • By securityguy 2nd Oct 17, 1:40 PM
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    securityguy
    They can whistle for it. Best of luck fighting the charity's lawyers.

    Having read the fundraiser's code, it's pretty clear that if the charity handed one of their members an official fundraising box, they'd be under no illusions that that the box, and any money that was put into it, would be anything other than the charity's.
    Originally posted by Malthusian
    The Fundraisers' Code is irrelevant: it isn't law, and the executors, beneficiaries and creditors aren't bound by it, as they aren't fundraisers (in general).

    It's clear that the box remains the property of the charity. It's no different to if you died with your employer's car in your driveway or your employer's laptop in your study.
    If you die with your employer's car on the drive they do not own your coat that you left on the back seat, nor the money in the glove box. And the issue of who owns data on company-provided IT equipment is, to put it mildly, vexed (and company AUPs haven't been tested in court for good reason).

    Giving it to a fundraiser to take home with them doesn't make it the fundraiser's property, any more than a company car becomes the employee's when they park it on their driveway
    The contents of the company car are certainly mine, assuming they were mine before I put them in the boot.. Your analogy is entirely false. Are you _seriously_ saying that if I have a company car then the contents of my suitcase in the boot transfers to my employer when I use it to go on holiday?

    To repeat: morally I absolutely agree with you. I am curious, however, as to the utter certainly people appear to have that charity boxes have the sanctity of the confessional.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 2nd Oct 17, 2:53 PM
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    Malthusian
    If you die with your employer's car on the drive they do not own your coat that you left on the back seat, nor the money in the glove box.
    But if someone handed me £150 in my capacity as a fundraiser for the Children's Society, and then I drive off with it and run into a tree with the cash still on the back seat, it's still the charity's. Not the employer's, and not my estate's.

    The physical location of the money is irrelevant, what matters is the intent of whoever it was put the money in the box. (As I said, with £150 in the box it's unlikely it all came from the deceased.) By putting the money in the box they were indicating very clearly that they're transferring ownership to the charity, not the deceased.

    Hmm. Any contents? OK, so if I put a gram of cocaine in the charity box and leave it on my shelf, I'm in the clear when old bill comes a calling, but the charity is on the hook for possession of a Class A substance?
    You're confusing possession with ownership.

    Here's another example: I put all my money in a charity box and the declare myself bankrupt. Do my creditors _really_ have no claim, at all, on the contents?
    The Official Receiver would claim the money from the charity, just as they would if you'd given all your money to your brother before declaring bankruptcy. If it's still in the box that would make things very easy for them.
    • securityguy
    • By securityguy 2nd Oct 17, 3:14 PM
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    securityguy
    The Official Receiver would claim the money from the charity, just as they would if you'd given all your money to your brother before declaring bankruptcy. If it's still in the box that would make things very easy for them.
    Originally posted by Malthusian
    Right. And the Official Receiver stands, in relation to a bankrupt, in a very similar position to an executor and an estate.
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 2nd Oct 17, 3:24 PM
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    unforeseen
    I think the assumption that the deceased was a bone fide fundraiser for the charity is erroneous. Charities such as the one mentioned hand out collection boxes willy nilly to any member of the public , more as a visible memory jogger than anything else. There is no registration of the fundraiser or any other check, not even address recording.

    I therefore doubt the deceased is classed as a fundraiser for these reasons. These boxes are left in a stack at church doors for example with a note to please take one.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 2nd Oct 17, 3:34 PM
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    getmore4less
    Back in the real world.

    If giving it to charity leave it off the capital return.
    (unless you are short for the charity reduction in IHT)

    Too much bother to account for it as a charity debt(donation) on the IHT forms and the inventory & account.
    • Fermion
    • By Fermion 2nd Oct 17, 4:50 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    Fermion
    As the sum in the box is know it seems that the box has already been opened.
    Actually the box wasn't opened, but my Mother had pinned a label to the box with a note of the approx. amount of the last contents when opened by the Children's Society Rep - I'm assuming the contents are similar this time

    The box is actually quite a robust plastic box about 5"x4"x3" -
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 2nd Oct 17, 4:55 PM
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    Yorkshireman99
    Deleted xxxxxxxxxx
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 2nd Oct 17, 4:58 PM
    • 3,371 Posts
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    Yorkshireman99
    The Fundraisers' Code is irrelevant: it isn't law, and the executors, beneficiaries and creditors aren't bound by it, as they aren't fundraisers (in general).



    If you die with your employer's car on the drive they do not own your coat that you left on the back seat, nor the money in the glove box. And the issue of who owns data on company-provided IT equipment is, to put it mildly, vexed (and company AUPs haven't been tested in court for good reason).



    The contents of the company car are certainly mine, assuming they were mine before I put them in the boot.. Your analogy is entirely false. Are you _seriously_ saying that if I have a company car then the contents of my suitcase in the boot transfers to my employer when I use it to go on holiday?

    To repeat: morally I absolutely agree with you. I am curious, however, as to the utter certainly people appear to have that charity boxes have the sanctity of the confessional.
    Originally posted by securityguy
    More irrelevant fantasy.
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 2nd Oct 17, 5:55 PM
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    unforeseen
    Actually the box wasn't opened, but my Mother had pinned a label to the box with a note of the approx. amount of the last contents when opened by the Children's Society Rep - I'm assuming the contents are similar this time

    The box is actually quite a robust plastic box about 5"x4"x3" -
    Originally posted by Fermion
    Nice!

    After 26 posts OP decides to dripfeed some more relevant information that makes a lot of the other posts pointless.

    Why do people expect relevant responses when they fail to supply all the info?
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 2nd Oct 17, 7:45 PM
    • 30,766 Posts
    • 18,378 Thanks
    getmore4less
    Nice!

    After 26 posts OP decides to dripfeed some more relevant information that makes a lot of the other posts pointless.

    Why do people expect relevant responses when they fail to supply all the info?
    Originally posted by unforeseen
    Because they don't know the relevant information when they start.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 3rd Oct 17, 9:14 AM
    • 3,435 Posts
    • 5,271 Thanks
    Malthusian
    I think the assumption that the deceased was a bone fide fundraiser for the charity is erroneous. Charities such as the one mentioned hand out collection boxes willy nilly to any member of the public , more as a visible memory jogger than anything else. There is no registration of the fundraiser or any other check, not even address recording.
    Originally posted by unforeseen
    If the box contained £1.47 in 5ps and coppers I would agree with you. The fact that there's around £150 in there (plus a post-it note indicating that a charity rep had been round to count and collect the money) suggests it was used for collecting donations from others.
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 3rd Oct 17, 12:48 PM
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    • 2,487 Thanks
    unforeseen
    If the box contained £1.47 in 5ps and coppers I would agree with you. The fact that there's around £150 in there (plus a post-it note indicating that a charity rep had been round to count and collect the money) suggests it was used for collecting donations from others.
    Originally posted by Malthusian
    The information about the rep wasn't known when I made my post that you quoted
    • Linton
    • By Linton 3rd Oct 17, 1:51 PM
    • 8,621 Posts
    • 8,588 Thanks
    Linton
    If the box contained £1.47 in 5ps and coppers I would agree with you. The fact that there's around £150 in there (plus a post-it note indicating that a charity rep had been round to count and collect the money) suggests it was used for collecting donations from others.
    Originally posted by Malthusian
    Yes, though if your analysis is correct it would mean that the charity collecting box is totally irrelevent. The same would apply if the box contents were in an envelop labelled "charity", contrary to some other arguments presented in this thread.

    Another thought for what it's worth.....
    If the law doesnt clearly state the ownership then the only way for the money to be assigned one would be for a court to decide. In this case a judicial decision is rather unlikely so the ownership is undefined and it is reasonable for the OP to make an assumption taking whatever action is appropriate.
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