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  • FIRST POST
    • kaych
    • By kaych 29th Sep 17, 9:36 PM
    • 333Posts
    • 187Thanks
    kaych
    Parking ticket in own allocated parking space
    • #1
    • 29th Sep 17, 9:36 PM
    Parking ticket in own allocated parking space 29th Sep 17 at 9:36 PM
    Good evening all,

    Just wondered if anyone has encountered this issue. We own our flat and a car park space in the basement (leasehold). Our management company (employed by our resident association) has brought in a private company to manage the parking within the development.

    Basically I was issued a parking ticket while my car was parked in my own allocated space. The reason for the ticket was 'permit required'.

    I have always displayed a permit and our current permit runs from Jan 2016 till Jan 2018. However, a new permit was sent to us (the same parking company) in August 2017 which I didn't display it before they issued me with a ticket.

    What ground do I have to appeal this? The 'old' permit was still valid, but would the new permit replace the old one? The old and new permits look almost the same with the same company name etc.

    My management company said they couldn't help because I didn't display the new permit. But my old permit was still valid.

    I have checked the lease, it does say something along the line that we have to follow the arrangement the management company may bring in, even though there is no mention of display of a permit.

    I just find it unfair that my permit was still valid, can they just issue a new permit, catch you out and then issue you with a ticket?

    Also management company said normally the parking company would send in a photo to show how I have contravened with the rule and the reason for the ticket. But there was no photo attached with the ticket and I would think they would look silly anyway if they did take a photo of our car with a valid permit on it.

    Any advice on this would be much appreciated.
Page 1
    • Marktheshark
    • By Marktheshark 29th Sep 17, 9:38 PM
    • 5,691 Posts
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    Marktheshark
    • #2
    • 29th Sep 17, 9:38 PM
    • #2
    • 29th Sep 17, 9:38 PM
    I would ask why they are running a profit making business on your leasehold land without your permission .
    what next a burger van ?
    Your land, under your lease and you decide who operates businesses upon that land.
    Brexit will become whatever they invent it to be.
    • kaych
    • By kaych 29th Sep 17, 9:56 PM
    • 333 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    kaych
    • #3
    • 29th Sep 17, 9:56 PM
    • #3
    • 29th Sep 17, 9:56 PM
    Hi Marktheshark, the private parking company has been 'employed' by our management company (whom is appointed by our resident association). so I guess this gives them permission to manage parking in our development and issue tickets?
    • Marktheshark
    • By Marktheshark 29th Sep 17, 10:11 PM
    • 5,691 Posts
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    Marktheshark
    • #4
    • 29th Sep 17, 10:11 PM
    • #4
    • 29th Sep 17, 10:11 PM
    And YOU employ the management agency.
    Anyone else caught up in this scam, if so round them up and fire the management agents, it is quite easy to do and they might just work out that you employ them as your servants.
    Brexit will become whatever they invent it to be.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 29th Sep 17, 11:17 PM
    • 2,584 Posts
    • 3,845 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #5
    • 29th Sep 17, 11:17 PM
    • #5
    • 29th Sep 17, 11:17 PM
    You are being scammed, theoretically these muppets should be working to protect your parking rights, not harassing you, but as normal they have worked their con to make their cash by screwing the people they promised to protect.

    Have you read the newbies thread?
    Which PPC Muppets are you dealing with?
    • kaych
    • By kaych 29th Sep 17, 11:56 PM
    • 333 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    kaych
    • #6
    • 29th Sep 17, 11:56 PM
    • #6
    • 29th Sep 17, 11:56 PM
    Hi marktheshark I am going to ask around to see if anyone else had similar issue...

    Thanks fisherjum. They are called Private parking solutions (London) limited. I read the newbie thread, i initially ignored the PCN but they have since obtained our details from DVLA and sent us the NTK. I will make an informal appeal in order to obtain the POPLA reference and then take it from there.

    Do they need to have photographic evidence to prove the ticket was rightly issued? As I highly doubt they have that so it would just be a case of me arguing that I have a valid permit and them saying that we didn't ?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Sep 17, 12:33 AM
    • 51,635 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 30th Sep 17, 12:33 AM
    • #7
    • 30th Sep 17, 12:33 AM
    They'll have photos. Stop digging, it's a scam. Why the heck have residents agreed to this regime? Pointless.

    They won't cancel the charge but you won't be paying.

    I suggest you read the threads by hairray and Daniel san as well as all the zillions of other ''own space'' threads on here every week. No idea why you have agreed to display a permit when you own the flat & space - don't answer that before you've read a dozen or so other similar threads. You need to see this entire set up for what it is.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 30th Sep 17, 8:41 AM
    • 7,409 Posts
    • 6,455 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #8
    • 30th Sep 17, 8:41 AM
    • #8
    • 30th Sep 17, 8:41 AM
    Our management company (employed by our resident association)

    Could you explain this? Management Companies are usually contracted by head-leaseholders/landowners.

    It is not in the best interests of the residents to employ a PPC, and the function of Residents' Associations is to look after those interests. Why therefore would a RA appoint a PPC.

    Was this agreed by the residents? Was it discussed? Was it passed at the AGM? It does not make sense.
    Last edited by The Deep; 30-09-2017 at 9:00 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • kaych
    • By kaych 30th Sep 17, 7:22 PM
    • 333 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    kaych
    • #9
    • 30th Sep 17, 7:22 PM
    • #9
    • 30th Sep 17, 7:22 PM
    Basically we have formed a resident association in order to kick the old management company out (which was employed by the developer). We have a number of directors in the association and they basically act on behalf of the residents to appoint new MC and liase with MC about everyday businesses.

    Parking has always been an issue in our basement car park. so MC has appeared to engage PPS to 'manage' the car park in the basement. apparently this was agreed by the directors/RA when I questioned MC about the use of PPS to issue tickets. MC stated that as the use of PPS was agreed by the RA, so by extension 'I' have also agreed to this arrangement and be bound by the terms of using the car park i.e. display a permit.

    Anyhow I have checked my lease and it contains the standard wording which allow me to use my allocated parking space as marked on a plan that was given to us when we bought our flat. The use of permit was only introduced after PPS was brought on site about 2-3 years after we bought our flat.

    I have since read the newbie thread and others cases in more details and visited various useful websites. I feel more confident in my appeal as I have done nothing wrong in using my own space and I would very much look forward to them telling me how I 'broke' the terms and conditions of using my own parking space.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 30th Sep 17, 10:45 PM
    • 40,511 Posts
    • 80,903 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    We need to know the precise wording of your lease. Does it mention parking at all? Does it specifically say a private parking company can charge you a fee if you don't display a permit? (We know the answer but need you to realise the implications) Does it mention that you have quiet enjoyment?

    Have a read what judges have said about this sort of thing, then tell the MA/MC that they are on a sticky wicket if they support the parking scammers they brought in.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 01-10-2017 at 9:23 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • kaych
    • By kaych 30th Sep 17, 11:40 PM
    • 333 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    kaych
    Thanks Fruitcake. I am not happy with PPS and our MC, I will be making a formal complaints to MC and the directors of the RA about this.

    I have drafted the below to send to PPS, I would be interested to hear other's comments/advice on the below before I send it off. I request £160 below because that's the amount they are asking from me...

    Dear Sir/ Madam,

    We are writing to formally challenge the following Parking Charge Notice (PCN)

    Ticket no: xx
    Issued on: xx
    Vehicle reg: xxxxxxx
    Car park location:xxxx

    We are writing to formally challenge the above PCN.

    On xxx our vehicle was issued with the parking ticket above for the following reason: Permit Required.

    We are challenging this parking ticket because we have the right to park in our own parking space in accordance to our lease.

    Under section 8. Parking Space, the lease clearly states that 'The right (to the exclusion of all others) to use the car parking space(s) shaded blue on Plan 3 and numbered or any other parking space(s) allocated by the Developer from time to time with the Development for the purpose of parking one fully taxed and licensed private motor car or motor cycle only'.

    For this reason, we look forward to receiving notification within 28 days that the PCN has been cancelled.

    If you are unable to cancel the PCN, please provide us with a POPLA reference so we can proceed with our appeal accordingly.

    In addition, as our assigned parking bay is ours by right, we reserve the right to claim £160 in a county court against PPS for an act of trespass as PPS attempts to use our allocated bay for business purposes without lawful authority to do so. Our lease is the prime contract and any unilateral imposition of anything over and above that is unlawful. Our lease has no mention of a parking regime i.e. display a parking permit nor any agreement in the lease of a charge for a breach of parking conditions. Furthermore, we consider that the act of accessing the DVLA database to obtain the details of the registered keeper of the vehicle as unlawful and a breach of the Data Protection Act. PPS has no 'reasonable cause' to access the DVLA database as our vehicle has every right to unfettered parking according to the terms of the lease.

    Yours faithfully,
    Last edited by kaych; 04-10-2017 at 10:49 AM. Reason: remove personal information
    • Redx
    • By Redx 30th Sep 17, 11:53 PM
    • 16,865 Posts
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    Redx
    at the moment I would have though that they dont know who the driver is (or was)

    it would be better if the complaint or appeal was kept ambiguous , so WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO PARK IN OUR SPACE ACCORDING TO OUR LEASE etc

    never give them too much info , let them prove who was driving whilst still being the royal "we" in this matter
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • kaych
    • By kaych 30th Sep 17, 11:59 PM
    • 333 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    kaych
    Thanks Redx. I have revised those accordingly.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Oct 17, 1:23 AM
    • 51,635 Posts
    • 65,294 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    MC has appeared to engage PPS to 'manage' the car park in the basement. apparently this was agreed by the directors/RA when I questioned MC about the use of PPS to issue tickets. MC stated that as the use of PPS was agreed by the RA, so by extension 'I' have also agreed to this arrangement and be bound by the terms of using the car park i.e. display a permit.
    Have you read the threads by hairray and Daniel san? Very similar to what you describe above.

    PPS need kicking out.

    A parking firm do not resolve parking issues in a basement car park where residents & their visitors are the only ones parking - any PPC will always make things far, far worse.

    IMHO your lease is worded very clearly, and PPS have no business trespassing, so good for you in fighting back and telling them you will sue them for £160:
    'The right (to the exclusion of all others) to use the car parking space(s) shaded blue on Plan 3 and numbered or any other parking space(s) allocated by the Developer from time to time with the Development for the purpose of parking one fully taxed and licensed private motor car or motor cycle only'.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 1st Oct 17, 9:30 AM
    • 40,511 Posts
    • 80,903 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    That looks to be a very good response to the scammers. Keep up the pressure on the MC as well telling they will be jointly liable for the breach of DPA.

    Get your MP on board as well. Tell them that you have been charged by an unregulated company for parking in your own space and operating a for profit business on it without your permission.
    Also tell them that you expect them to support the private members bill concerning these unregulated private parking companies. If it is a Tory MP, tell them to talk to the RH Jacob Rees-Mogg MP who has an exceptional grasp of this disgusting industry.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • kaych
    • By kaych 11th Oct 17, 4:46 PM
    • 333 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    kaych
    Just to give an update on my situation. We have just received a rejection of our informal appeal of the PCN and given the POPLA code. So will be drafting my defence in the next 28 days.

    The informal appeal concludes the following:

    While I acknowledge your comments, I should note that the new permits have been hand-delivered to all letter boxes (for those flats and commercial units that have parking bays) during the week commencing 17 July 2017. The new permits have holograms on them to prevent counterfeit permits being created, and as before, are linked to specific bay numbers, so that the permits will only be valid if shown on a vehicle within a certain bay number. The new permits have become effective in place of any existing permits in use on 1 August 2017. As such, I conclude that on 08/08/2017, the Parking Charge Notice has been issued correctly.

    Within Section 18.1 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice, it states that “A driver who uses your private car park with your permission does so under a licence or contract with you. If they park without your permission this will usually be an act of trespass. In all cases, the driver’s use of your land will be governed by your terms and conditions, which the driver should be made aware of from the start. You must use signs to make it easy for them to find out what your terms and con1ditions are.” Warning signs are clearly displayed and available to be seen. The signs state,
    PRIVATE LAND, PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY
    Unauthorised parking by means of not showing a Clearly Displayed Valid Permit in the Windscreen will result in a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) of £100 being issued

    In order for the warden to assess if a vehicle is parked correctly, a valid permit would need to be visibly on display. If the operator is not able to confirm that a vehicle is parked correctly, a PCN will be issued. Upon consideration of the photographic evidence provided by the operator, you have failed to display a valid permit at the time of this parking event and therefore did not comply with the terms and conditions offered at the site. Ultimately, it is the motorist’s responsibility to act in accordance with the terms and conditions applicable to the site. Having failed to park the vehicle correctly I uphold the operative’s decision to ticket this vehicle.


    Just a question - I am reading through my Lease again, apart from the Lease term that I used in my informal appeal, I have noticed another paragraph in the Lease under the section called Parking. Just want to check whether this Lease has any negative impact in my case.

    The terms states the following:
    "Not to park or allow to be parked any car van or other vehicle on any part of the Reserved Property or the Development or the Estate (other than in such places (if any) as shall be provided therefore and save only to such extent and subject to such conditions as may be permitted by law and by such other regulations as may be imposed by the Developer or its managing agents."

    Does the regulations mentioned above have any implication for us in regard to allowing the managing agent (which is technically 'our' managing agent now rather than the developer's since we kicked the original MA out) to introduce PPS to implement parking permits?
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 11th Oct 17, 6:02 PM
    • 613 Posts
    • 1,123 Thanks
    safarmuk
    “A driver who uses your private car park with your permission does so under a licence or contract with you. If they park without your permission this will usually be an act of trespass. In all cases, the driver’s use of your land will be governed by your terms and conditions, which the driver should be made aware of from the start."
    There is a fundamental issue here ... it is not their car park or their land ... astonishing quote ... just sums up the hilarity of these situations.

    Two options - kill this at POPLA
    and/or get on top of your MA with a serious complaint about this PPC and the fact that they should not be rejecting an appeal from a resident who has confirmed they were parking in their own bay.
    • kaych
    • By kaych 11th Oct 17, 6:23 PM
    • 333 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    kaych
    It is indeed a ridiculous situation. Basically they are allowed to make money on land that they do not own. Following this logic, anyone can basically set up signs anywhere and issue tickets when you don't follow their rules...
    Our MA is pathetic too, no use. I will be writing the formal appeal to POPLA and look into the LBC to both PPS and the MA.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 11th Oct 17, 6:24 PM
    • 7,409 Posts
    • 6,455 Thanks
    The Deep
    it would be better if the complaint or appeal was kept ambiguous

    Surely Redx any actions by the leaseholder would have more authority in their own name. POFA/keeper liability is hardly an issue here, it is a PPC trespass/quiet enjoyment/invasion of privacy issue that is the problem.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 11th Oct 17, 6:46 PM
    • 728 Posts
    • 1,349 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Well obviously the private parking company will have proof of posting the permit, won't it? Or the individual that delivered it will provide evidence to POPLA that he did indeed post it through your letterbox? No?

    14 days notice is self-evidently inadequate notice that existing permits were going to be unilaterally withdrawn. What if you had left your car and were on holiday for the entirety of that period - it's mid summer. That is clearly an inappropriate time to affect such a change. 30 days would be more reasonable and would have permitted further correspondence with the parking company about the use of the existing permits (should clarification have been provided).

    The terms states the following:
    "Not to park or allow to be parked any car van or other vehicle on any part of the Reserved Property or the Development or the Estate (other than in such places (if any) as shall be provided therefore and save only to such extent and subject to such conditions as may be permitted by law and by such other regulations as may be imposed by the Developer or its managing agents."
    This may indeed be sufficient to allow a managing agent to impose new parking regulations (although I note that there is no longer a developer or their agent, but rather one appointed on your behalf now involved). The key to this, however, is that you are still referring back to the Leasehold/Freehold. Notice periods under that document will be clearly specified. They will be postal (not by hand delivery) and they will provide for periods longer than 14 days for precisely the reasons set out above.

    Thus even if the Claimant parking company is prima facie permitted to issue PCNs under the terms of your property ownership I would argue that inadequate notice was given, by the wrong method, and as such the permit displayed was valid and your ticket should not have been issued. Amen.

    I defer to others on this latter point, but as an aside it seems to me that since you are required to submit all material to POPLA in one go, i'd make sure they provide you with their copy contract, copies of the correspondence withdrawing the old permit and photos of your vehicle before completing your appeal. Others more familiar with the POPLA process will advise on whether a time extension is feasible - the code does, as I understand it, expire.
    Last edited by Johnersh; 11-10-2017 at 6:49 PM.
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