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  • FIRST POST
    • Shotgun Rider
    • By Shotgun Rider 29th Sep 17, 8:32 PM
    • 81Posts
    • 53Thanks
    Shotgun Rider
    Surface Water Rebate
    • #1
    • 29th Sep 17, 8:32 PM
    Surface Water Rebate 29th Sep 17 at 8:32 PM
    I always thought that I was getting a surface water discount on my water bill and only recently realised I wasn't. I put a claim in with Welsh Water for the discount and rebate but after a visit out they told me I wasn't eligible.

    All my guttering lead to soakaways, the only issue was open waste gullys from the kitchen and bathroom. Rain water can run into them from the surrounding patio/ path. The assessor told my wife on the QT that if we covered the gullys and put it an another claim it should go through.

    Has anyone any experience of this? I'm wondering if a simple drain guard like below is all that's required.

    https://www.screwfix.com/p/floplast-drain-guard-305mm-black/78832

    Thanks in advance
Page 1
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 29th Sep 17, 8:40 PM
    • 27,103 Posts
    • 13,219 Thanks
    Cardew
    • #2
    • 29th Sep 17, 8:40 PM
    • #2
    • 29th Sep 17, 8:40 PM
    I don't understand what you mean by 'open waste gullys from the kitchen and bathroom.'.
    • Shotgun Rider
    • By Shotgun Rider 29th Sep 17, 9:11 PM
    • 81 Posts
    • 53 Thanks
    Shotgun Rider
    • #3
    • 29th Sep 17, 9:11 PM
    • #3
    • 29th Sep 17, 9:11 PM
    I don't understand what you mean by 'open waste gullys from the kitchen and bathroom.'.
    Originally posted by Cardew
    These

    https://www.screwfix.com/p/floplast-d510-circular-grid-bottle-gully/28956
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 30th Sep 17, 5:46 PM
    • 3,157 Posts
    • 1,879 Thanks
    matelodave
    • #4
    • 30th Sep 17, 5:46 PM
    • #4
    • 30th Sep 17, 5:46 PM
    I'd think you'd only get away with it if the gully was sufficiently above gound level that any surface water couldn't get in.

    Has your drain got a curb or upstand around it to stop surface water flowing into it or is the grid at ground level.

    Our drains are level with the surface of the path so any water running along the path could get into it so just fixing a cover wouldn't stop water running underneath. It would need some sort of barrier all around it to prevent surface water flowing into it..

    To be honest, in my case the the discaount isn't worth the hassle - I'm quite happy to pay and not bother about what flows into the drains.
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    • Rodders53
    • By Rodders53 2nd Oct 17, 3:21 PM
    • 424 Posts
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    Rodders53
    • #5
    • 2nd Oct 17, 3:21 PM
    • #5
    • 2nd Oct 17, 3:21 PM
    To be honest, in my case the the discount isn't worth the hassle - I'm quite happy to pay and not bother about what flows into the drains.
    Originally posted by matelodave
    Wot £35 a year not worth having? (= Nearly 1.5 month's worth of metered water/sewage charges for me!)

    I'd apply for a discount but my Rainwater Harvesting System goes into the mains sewers when I flush the toilets. and some water companies specifically mention that excludes me from doing so.

    Anglian still assume my water out = 90% of water in even though I know it's more like 150% {based on what we use here cf our last home}.
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 2nd Oct 17, 4:41 PM
    • 27,103 Posts
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    Cardew
    • #6
    • 2nd Oct 17, 4:41 PM
    • #6
    • 2nd Oct 17, 4:41 PM
    Wot £35 a year not worth having? (= Nearly 1.5 month's worth of metered water/sewage charges for me!)

    .
    Originally posted by Rodders53
    This illustrates yet another of the many anomalies with water charges in the different regions.

    In my area - Severn Trent - Surface Water Drainage(SWD) varies according to the type of property the 3 bands are Terraced/flat, semi, detached. So a huge Terraced property(like 10 Downing Street* with 150? rooms) pays much less than a 1 bed detached cottage. I pay £76.

    * I do appreciate that 10 Downing Street is not in Severn Trent's Area!!

    Even more stupid is that every flat in a, say, 20 storey block pays the same SWD charge.
    • Robisere
    • By Robisere 3rd Oct 17, 5:46 PM
    • 1,891 Posts
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    Robisere
    • #7
    • 3rd Oct 17, 5:46 PM
    • #7
    • 3rd Oct 17, 5:46 PM
    I can only speak for my village and our Close that houses 15 bungalows, formerly Sheltered Housing before this government stopped funding to the Councils for that. There are also another 8 bungalows facing the main road, behind the line of 6 link-detached bungalows where ours is situated. All 23 have soakaways and we got our tip regarding the rebate, from an Anglian Water official, long retired and living nearby.

    We do not have the open waste gulleys, just soakaways for all roof and guttering water. I obtained the details and forms from AW: the Water companies are apparently obliged by law to issue them to householders who request them. I filled in my own form, downloaded and passed out another 22 forms to all residents. We all received a rebate (I suspect I was not popular with AW regarding that!) which began at £32 a year and has increased in line with Water Charges, annually.

    A little item of information, is that a partial rebate may be achieved, if all roof water runoff is directed into water butts. That is the case with my own bungalow. Partial, because the butts are correctly fitted and aligned, when full, the water flows again into the drain. In our case (of soakaways) that was irrelevant: however, we live in East Lindsey, which has some of the lowest precipitation in the UK. (Sometimes does not seem so!) Therefore we try to save water.

    I also fitted the drain covers shown, as part of the advice given by the retired AW official. My advice is to measure the holes that are meant to secure the covers, drill the wall and secure the covers with screws and rawlplugs.
    There may be more than one way to skin a cat.
    But the result is always inedible.

    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 3rd Oct 17, 10:07 PM
    • 27,103 Posts
    • 13,219 Thanks
    Cardew
    • #8
    • 3rd Oct 17, 10:07 PM
    • #8
    • 3rd Oct 17, 10:07 PM
    We all received a rebate (I suspect I was not popular with AW regarding that!) which began at £32 a year and has increased in line with Water Charges, annually.
    Originally posted by Robisere
    Some clarification is required regarding popularity with Anglian Water.

    The unique financing arrangements for the privatised water companies under the Water Act means that it doesn't affect their profits in any way regardless of how many customers get a rebate for SWD.

    In simplistic terms the Regulator(Ofwat) allows each company to raise £xxx million in revenue, and provided certain targets are met, make £xx million profit.

    Thus if, say, they lose £1million in revenue from customers being exempt SWD charges, they raise that £1 million by increasing other charges to compensate.

    Incidentally until recently companies would not backdate any refund further than the beginning of the charging year, and this was supported in writing in Ofwat advice. However this wording has now changed and companies can backdate refunds for 6 years(statute limitation) if the company should have known that soakaways etc were used. It doesn't define how they should have known. Plenty about this in threads on this forum and Martin has written an article.
    • Robisere
    • By Robisere 3rd Oct 17, 11:02 PM
    • 1,891 Posts
    • 2,667 Thanks
    Robisere
    • #9
    • 3rd Oct 17, 11:02 PM
    • #9
    • 3rd Oct 17, 11:02 PM
    Cardew:
    "Some clarification is required regarding popularity with Anglian Water."

    If you making reference to to my (un)popularity with AW:
    " (I suspect I was not popular with AW regarding that!) "

    - I received feedback from a current AW employee who does not live in the village, but whose father is a personal friend.

    I would be interested to learn the source of your own knowledge of the Water Act; is it available to the public?

    There were certain anomalies created after modern-day privatisation which are still current practice. I was born and brought up in a mining village in the Nottinghamshire coalfield. Privatisation meant that Severn Trent took over as the Water company there and the first house I bought was a former NCB estate house. I lived on a long, straight street and the main sewerage drain ran along the rear of the properties. The whole drain became blocked and ST carried out a camera survey, to find that all our link pipes to each drain, and the main drain, required to be rebuilt and renewed. They prepared a glossy colour booklet for each resident, to demonstrate this and indicated the sum we would each have to pay. Unfortunately, the Estate was covered by a law passed down from pre-1947 Nationalisation times, which had been transferred to the municipal Water Board and thus onto ST. This declared as law that all sewage pipes from each house and the drain, was the Water Board's responsibility, and by default became Severn Trent's responsibility. Only two collieries were involved, formerly built in the 1920's by Lord Newstead.

    ST tried to avoid this financial responsibility of course, but having produced such a clear and comprehensive record of the damage, togeher with the still-active law, they were forced to admit defeat. I was one of two residents who were active in bringing about the action against ST. So the Anglian Water soakaway affair, is not the first time I have annoyed a Water Company!
    Last edited by Robisere; 03-10-2017 at 11:27 PM.
    There may be more than one way to skin a cat.
    But the result is always inedible.

    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 4th Oct 17, 9:47 AM
    • 27,103 Posts
    • 13,219 Thanks
    Cardew

    I would be interested to learn the source of your own knowledge of the Water Act; is it available to the public?
    Originally posted by Robisere
    http://www.ofwat.gov.uk/regulated-companies/ofwat-industry-overview/legislation/

    Legislation

    The water and sewerage sectors in England and Wales have to comply with several different Acts of Parliament and European Directives. The legislation covers the following broad areas:
    • economic regulation of the sector
    • water supply
    • sewerage services
    • drinking water quality
    • environmental standards
    • customer service
    • flood and drought protection and adaptation
    National legislation

    The Water Act 1989 provided for the privatisation of the former water authorities.
    Water related legislation (including the Water Act 1989) was subsequently consolidated into new Acts of Parliament. These included:
    • The Water Industry Act 1991, which sets out the main powers and duties of the water and sewerage companies, thus replacing those set out in the Water Act 1989, and defined the powers of the Director General of Water Services (now the Water Services Regulation Authority (Ofwat)).
    • The Water Resources Act 1991, which set out the functions of the National Rivers Authority (now the Environment Agency) and introduced water quality classifications and objectives for the first time.
    Subsequent legislation

    Subsequent Acts have modified the framework. These include the following:
    • The Competition and Service (Utilities) Act 1992 increased Ofwat’s powers to determine disputes and increased the limited opportunities for competition in the industry.
    • The Environment Act 1995 led to restructuring of environmental regulation and placed a duty on the companies to promote the efficient use of water by customers. It created a new body, the Environment Agency, which took over the functions of the National Rivers Authority, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Pollution, the waste regulation functions of local authorities and certain elements of the Department of the Environment. Natural Resources Wales now exercises the functions of the Environment Agency in Wales.
    • The Competition Act 1998 prohibits any agreements between businesses that prevent, restrict or distort competition. It also prohibits any abuse of a dominant market position. Ofwat shares enforcement powers in relation to the water and sewerage sectors with the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA).
    • The Water Industry Act 1999 made several important amendments to the Water Industry Act 1991. These included:
    • removing a company’s right to disconnect domestic customers for non-payment of bills,
    • limiting the circumstances in which companies can starting charging domestic customers on a metered basis,
    • securing that companies could continue to charge customers on the basis of rateable value.
    • The Water Act 2003 amended the framework for abstraction licensing, made changes to the corporate structure of economic regulation, and extended the scope for competition in the industry to large users.
    • The Enterprise Act 2002 amended the Water Industry Act 1991 to update the regime for the compulsory reference of certain mergers between water companies to the Competition Commission (now the CMA).
    • The Flood and Water Management Act 2010 encouraged the use of sustainable urban drainage systems (SUDs), amended the Water Industry Act to modernise the list of activities that can be restricted by water companies in a drought, and made it easier for water companies to offer lower tariffs to certain groups.
    • The Water Act 2014 enables greater competition for non-household customers (expected to be limited to customers of English water companies) and gives Ofwat new powers to make rules about charges and charges schemes, as well as making provisions for flood insurance and drainage boards.
    European legislation

    Most of the UK’s recent environmental legislation originates in the European Union (EU). This legislation also applies to all other EU member states.
    As environmental problems differ between countries, European environmental legislation usually takes the form of a ‘directive’. A directive allows the EU to set the outcomes that member states have to achieve, but leaves implementation to each individual country. This allows each country to take into account their own legal systems and existing laws. Every member state must comply with European directives which take precedence over national legislation.
    Some of the most important directives for the water and sewerage sectors are listed below.
    • The Water Framework Directive creates a single system of water management, based around a natural river basin – which may form part of two or more member states, or local government areas. The directive sets objectives and deadlines for improving water quality. It looks overall at both the ecology of the water and its chemical characteristics.
    • The Urban Wastewater Treatment Directive aims to protect the water environment from being damaged by urban waste water and certain industrial discharges.
    • The Marine Strategy Framework Directive establishes marine regions on the basis of geographical and environmental criteria. Member states – cooperating with other member states and non-EU countries within a marine region – are required to develop strategies to protect their marine waters.
    • The Floods Directive requires member states to carry out flood risk assessments, create maps of flood risk and develop flood risk management plans.
    • The Drinking Water Directive sets quality standards for drinking water and requires drinking water quality to be monitored and reported.
    • The Bathing Water Directive aims to protect public health and the environment by keeping coastal and inland bathing waters free from pollution.
    • The Sewage Sludge Directive aims to encourage the use of sewage sludge in agriculture and to regulate its use in in such a way as to prevent harmful effects on soil, vegetation, animals and man.



    https://0980a19b0bb02fe4a86d-0df48efcb31bcf2ed0366d316cab9ab8.ssl.cf3.rackcdn.c om/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Final-FP-2017-final.pdf
    • matelodave
    • By matelodave 4th Oct 17, 6:39 PM
    • 3,157 Posts
    • 1,879 Thanks
    matelodave
    That looks like a significant amount of homework - I think Cardew should get out a bit more
    Love makes the world go round - beer make it go round even faster
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 4th Oct 17, 6:56 PM
    • 27,103 Posts
    • 13,219 Thanks
    Cardew
    That looks like a significant amount of homework - I think Cardew should get out a bit more
    Originally posted by matelodave
    Get out more? Not when I think I have found a mistake in this:
    3)After subsection (2) there is inserted—

    “(2A)For the purposes of section 61(4A) below—

    (a)every full licence under this Chapter which is for a term exceeding twelve years shall; and

    (b)any transfer licence under this Chapter which is for a term exceeding twelve years may,

    specify a minimum value for the quantity referred to in subsection (2)(a) above.”

    (4)For subsections (4) and (5) there is substituted—

    S. 36(1)(2) in force at 1.4.2006 by S.I. 2005/2714, art. 4(c)
    as you can see, I like to look at the bigger picture
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