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  • FIRST POST
    • Sprinkly
    • By Sprinkly 27th Sep 17, 7:01 PM
    • 27Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Sprinkly
    Scratching my head
    • #1
    • 27th Sep 17, 7:01 PM
    Scratching my head 27th Sep 17 at 7:01 PM
    I am still standing scratching my head and can't help feeling hard done by and just need to explore this situation and ask is there anything to be done or just walk away.

    My NHS lease car was totaled on 12th of this month when it was parked.

    I signed a 3 year nhs lease contract. I got the car in October 2016 after a 4 month wait for it. However because of a clause in the contract that says if the car is written off then the contract terminates. It wasn't my fault. The contract also states you will not be provided with a replacement car. I then discovered on investigating I can't get another car with NHS fleet because I don't now earn enough as it would have to be a new contract.

    So, someone smashes into my car. I lose the car. Find I can't get another one. Ive lost out on salary sacrifice with tax etc, not to mention the major inconvenience I and my family have suffered as a result of the loss of the vehicle and that's it.

    Shouldn't I be being put back to where I was pre accident by someone but who? I just feel like my situation is just a case of oh hard luck and I appreciate this might be the case at the end of the day.

    Trying to look at the positives of being released from the contract but I would prefer to have had my car back or a car back.

    However until the claim is complete I have been provided with a substitute courtesy car by NHS fleet because I'm still paying for the totalled car from my salary until claim completion then my car payments cease being taken from my salary and I have to give the courtesy car back but not knowing from one week to the next how long I've got this courtesy car. Then after that no car at all.
    Last edited by Sprinkly; 27-09-2017 at 7:28 PM.
Page 1
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 27th Sep 17, 7:48 PM
    • 650 Posts
    • 333 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    • #2
    • 27th Sep 17, 7:48 PM
    • #2
    • 27th Sep 17, 7:48 PM
    I am still standing scratching my head and can't help feeling hard done by and just need to explore this situation and ask is there anything to be done or just walk away.

    My NHS lease car was totaled on 12th of this month when it was parked.

    I signed a 3 year nhs lease contract. I got the car in October 2016 after a 4 month wait for it. However because of a clause in the contract that says if the car is written off then the contract terminates. It wasn't my fault. The contract also states you will not be provided with a replacement car. I then discovered on investigating I can't get another car with NHS fleet because I don't now earn enough as it would have to be a new contract.

    So, someone smashes into my car. I lose the car. Find I can't get another one. Ive lost out on salary sacrifice with tax etc, not to mention the major inconvenience I and my family have suffered as a result of the loss of the vehicle and that's it.

    Shouldn't I be being put back to where I was pre accident by someone but who? I just feel like my situation is just a case of oh hard luck and I appreciate this might be the case at the end of the day.

    Trying to look at the positives of being released from the contract but I would prefer to have had my car back or a car back.

    However until the claim is complete I have been provided with a substitute courtesy car by NHS fleet because I'm still paying for the totalled car from my salary until claim completion then my car payments cease being taken from my salary and I have to give the courtesy car back but not knowing from one week to the next how long I've got this courtesy car. Then after that no car at all.
    Originally posted by Sprinkly

    But you knew that when you took out the contract.
    • flashg67
    • By flashg67 27th Sep 17, 8:22 PM
    • 2,288 Posts
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    flashg67
    • #3
    • 27th Sep 17, 8:22 PM
    • #3
    • 27th Sep 17, 8:22 PM
    'lost out on salary sacrifice' - haven't you gained (paid less tax) or are you referring to the fact you can't now have this facility?
    • Castle
    • By Castle 27th Sep 17, 8:23 PM
    • 1,307 Posts
    • 1,697 Thanks
    Castle
    • #4
    • 27th Sep 17, 8:23 PM
    • #4
    • 27th Sep 17, 8:23 PM
    Have you spoken to your insurance company; and did you have legal expenses cover?
    • BeenThroughItAll
    • By BeenThroughItAll 27th Sep 17, 8:56 PM
    • 4,614 Posts
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    BeenThroughItAll
    • #5
    • 27th Sep 17, 8:56 PM
    • #5
    • 27th Sep 17, 8:56 PM
    Was this really worthy of another thread on the same subject?
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 27th Sep 17, 9:10 PM
    • 15,657 Posts
    • 13,978 Thanks
    AdrianC
    • #6
    • 27th Sep 17, 9:10 PM
    • #6
    • 27th Sep 17, 9:10 PM
    My NHS lease car was totaled on 12th of this month when it was parked.

    I signed a 3 year nhs lease contract. ... However because of a clause in the contract that says if the car is written off then the contract terminates. ... The contract also states you will not be provided with a replacement car.
    Originally posted by Sprinkly
    So everything is as per the contract you agreed to when you took out the lease.

    You would have had the car for three years, but the lease has been terminated early - rather than a replacement car provided - because the car no longer exists.

    I then discovered on investigating I can't get another car with NHS fleet because I don't now earn enough as it would have to be a new contract.
    Right. And?

    Shouldn't I be being put back to where I was pre accident by someone but who?
    Insurance has paid out the pre-collision value of the car, and the car's owner is not out of pocket.
    Your lease has conformed to the contract you agreed to.
    What else is missing...?

    The question I think you're really wanting an answer to is actually one you have the answer to already - why you are no longer eligible for a new lease. Has your salary dropped because you changed jobs or reduced hours? Has the scheme changed, so the eligibility is now higher?

    However until the claim is complete I have been provided with a substitute courtesy car by NHS fleet because I'm still paying for the totalled car from my salary until claim completion then my car payments cease being taken from my salary and I have to give the courtesy car back but not knowing from one week to the next how long I've got this courtesy car. Then after that no car at all.
    Yep, that's the way it works with a write-off. You get a car provided until the claim is settled, then everything is... settled.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 27th Sep 17, 11:28 PM
    • 11,597 Posts
    • 8,734 Thanks
    unholyangel
    • #7
    • 27th Sep 17, 11:28 PM
    • #7
    • 27th Sep 17, 11:28 PM
    Quite simply if you have suffered a loss due to negligence of another party, then you should have a claim against them - its not just limited to the value of the car. The innocent party are entitled to be indemnified by the negligent party for their loss 100%. The general rule is that they need to take their "victim" as they find them.

    However its only for actual losses that are a direct result of their negligence. So you'd need to be able to quantify that loss. Theres also no entitlement to betterment.

    Theoretically, if you could show that to get the exact same car (same model, age, mileage etc) but you would have to (for example) pay £1000 more over the course of the new agreement than you would have had to pay under the old one, you might be able to claim that amount. As above though, if you have legal cover on your insurance speak to them and see if they can help.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Sprinkly
    • By Sprinkly 28th Sep 17, 5:53 AM
    • 27 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Sprinkly
    • #8
    • 28th Sep 17, 5:53 AM
    • #8
    • 28th Sep 17, 5:53 AM
    I'm no longer eligible for salary sacrifice AdrianC and therefore wont be considered for another vehicle because of the rising cost of their cars on offer and a government law to do with the national minimum wage in calculating your car quote. Unholyangel I had full comp cover. Thanks for your helpful answer I'll speak to the insurance. company.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 28th Sep 17, 8:09 AM
    • 15,657 Posts
    • 13,978 Thanks
    AdrianC
    • #9
    • 28th Sep 17, 8:09 AM
    • #9
    • 28th Sep 17, 8:09 AM
    Quite simply if you have suffered a loss due to negligence of another party, then you should have a claim against them - its not just limited to the value of the car. The innocent party are entitled to be indemnified by the negligent party for their loss 100%. The general rule is that they need to take their "victim" as they find them.
    Originally posted by unholyangel
    What other losses has the OP suffered?

    Theoretically, if you could show that to get the exact same car (same model, age, mileage etc) but you would have to (for example) pay £1000 more over the course of the new agreement than you would have had to pay under the old one, you might be able to claim that amount. As above though, if you have legal cover on your insurance speak to them and see if they can help.
    Nope, doesn't work like that.

    The insurance contract to pay out the pre-collision value of the car. No more, no less. If that had left the OP in negative equity on finance, then that's what a separate gap policy is for. The insurer do not have to replace it - if there's no equivalent available, that's impossible. The fact that the OP is no longer eligible for the deal on which that car was obtained is not the insurer's problem, bluntly.
    • custardy
    • By custardy 28th Sep 17, 12:01 PM
    • 32,760 Posts
    • 27,480 Thanks
    custardy
    I dont understand. Total loss by other party at fault.
    Surely that parties insurance company should be replacing the car?
    The lease company isnt going to write off the value of the car,so somebody got a payout?
    If we forget its a lease then it would be a straight forward deal.
    Was the insurance part of the lease arrangement?
    Ive never taken these deals via my employer.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 28th Sep 17, 12:06 PM
    • 15,657 Posts
    • 13,978 Thanks
    AdrianC
    I dont understand. Total loss by other party at fault.
    Surely that parties insurance company should be replacing the car?
    Originally posted by custardy
    No, they should be paying out the pre-collision value.

    The lease company isnt going to write off the value of the car,so somebody got a payout?
    Yep, the lease company have had the value of their car paid to them.

    If we forget its a lease then it would be a straight forward deal.
    Yep, the OP would have the pre-collision value of their car paid to them, ultimately by the other driver's insurer. That might leave them in negative equity on finance, if they didn't have a gap policy.

    There are three questions here, and they're completely separate.

    The first is the payout for the written-off car. That's all sorted.

    The second is the termination of the lease - which is as per the contract the OP signed. That's all sorted.

    The third is the OP's non-qualification for a new lease. That's nobody's problem but the OP's. Everything else has been sorted, according to contract.
    • GazNicki
    • By GazNicki 28th Sep 17, 1:05 PM
    • 100 Posts
    • 29 Thanks
    GazNicki
    Agree fully with AdrianC on this one. The fact that you have no car now, is the direct result of the lease agreement being terminated. That means you are no longer contributing to this lease, and therefore have nothing to show for it.

    You are not out of pocket.

    Your issue is that you cannot get another lease via the NHS. I suggest you review your other options, such as HP, PCP, Personal Lease or buying outright.
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    • almillar
    • By almillar 28th Sep 17, 1:18 PM
    • 7,112 Posts
    • 2,859 Thanks
    almillar
    But you knew that when you took out the contract.
    Helpful stuff there.

    I think OP is confused about the insurance. They have compensated the owner of the car. That's the leasing company, not OP, as it would be if they owned the car.
    You were leasing a car. It was destroyed. You're no longer leasing it.

    For other, completely separate reasons, you don't have the benefit of taking another car via salary sacrifice - this has got nothing to do with 'your' car being written off, and you are free to buy or lease another car from anywhere else. If you were paying, say, £250 a month for your car, you can now go and pay £250 a month for a different (perhaps lesser) car.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 28th Sep 17, 2:59 PM
    • 11,597 Posts
    • 8,734 Thanks
    unholyangel
    What other losses has the OP suffered?


    Nope, doesn't work like that.

    The insurance contract to pay out the pre-collision value of the car. No more, no less. If that had left the OP in negative equity on finance, then that's what a separate gap policy is for. The insurer do not have to replace it - if there's no equivalent available, that's impossible. The fact that the OP is no longer eligible for the deal on which that car was obtained is not the insurer's problem, bluntly.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Yes, it does work like that - the law is the authority on the matter (not insurance companies) and the same principles have been expressly stated throughout hundreds if not thousands of negligence claims. The heads of damages are many.

    You're conflating issues - in the scenarios you mention with value versus outstanding finance, that would be a betterment as had the accident not happened, they would have paid (for example) £15000 for a £12000 asset so that is not a loss caused by the negligent act of the other party - they were always going to pay that money. In comparison, if OP has to pay £1000 more over the course of an agreement, that is a loss caused by the other party being negligent and therefore may be recoverable.

    In lagden v o'connor (albeit relating to the use of an expensive credit hire company while his own car was in for repair rather than complete loss but I'm only referencing it for the statements made about losses in negligence given special rules are not created when the claim involves a negligent driver, its the same rules that are applied in general to claims in tort) it was said:

    The right against the wrongdoer is for a restitutio in integrum, and this restitution he is bound to make without calling upon the party injured to assist him in any way whatsoever. If the settlement of the indemnification be attended with any difficulty (and in those cases difficulties must and will frequently occur), the party in fault must bear the inconvenience. He has no right to fix this inconvenience upon the injured party; and if that party derives incidentally a greater benefit than mere indemnification, it arises only from the impossibility of otherwise effecting such indemnification without exposing him to some loss or burden, which the law will not place upon him."

    The principle which emerges from this passage is that it is not open to the wrongdoer to require the injured party to bear any part of the cost of obtaining such indemnification for his loss as will place him in the same position as he was before the accident.
    It has to be shown that the claimant had a choice, and that he would have been able to mitigate his loss at less cost. The wrongdoer is not entitled to demand of the injured party that he incur a loss, bear a burden or make unreasonable sacrifices in the mitigation of his damages.
    Lord Collins in Clippens Oil Co v Edinburgh and District Water Trustees [1907] AC 291, 303 that the wrongdoer must take his victim talem qualem (as he finds him), adding that:

    "if the position of the latter is aggravated because he is without the means of mitigating it, so much the worse for the wrongdoer, who has got to be answerable for the consequences flowing from his tortious act."
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Sprinkly
    • By Sprinkly 28th Sep 17, 6:42 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Sprinkly
    Will any of this affect further insurance I apply for is another question.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 28th Sep 17, 6:43 PM
    • 650 Posts
    • 333 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    Will any of this affect further insurance I apply for is another question.
    Originally posted by Sprinkly
    Potentially yes, you'll be declaring it for the next five years.
    • Sprinkly
    • By Sprinkly 30th Sep 17, 7:48 AM
    • 27 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Sprinkly
    'lost out on salary sacrifice' - haven't you gained (paid less tax) or are you referring to the fact you can't now have this facility?
    Originally posted by flashg67
    Referring to the fact I can't now have this facility
    • Sprinkly
    • By Sprinkly 30th Sep 17, 7:58 AM
    • 27 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Sprinkly
    Helpful stuff there.

    I think OP is confused about the insurance. They have compensated the owner of the car. That's the leasing company, not OP, as it would be if they owned the car.
    You were leasing a car. It was destroyed. You're no longer leasing it.

    For other, completely separate reasons, you don't have the benefit of taking another car via salary sacrifice - this has got nothing to do with 'your' car being written off, and you are free to buy or lease another car from anywhere else. If you were paying, say, £250 a month for your car, you can now go and pay £250 a month for a different (perhaps lesser) car.
    Originally posted by almillar
    The amount I paid on NHS lease was all inclusive £189 included all tax insurance breakdown cover MOTs everything was included in that price including reduced tax and NI. Ok yes go to another dealer which would cost me £189 or more plus the now hoiked insurance etc etc no reduced tax and NI simples ..
    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 30th Sep 17, 2:25 PM
    • 3,947 Posts
    • 2,941 Thanks
    sheramber
    You would have a benefit in kind charge included in your tax , dependent on the car you had. There should be a deduction in your tax coding for this. As a result you would pay tax on the value of the benefit in addition to the tax on your salary.

    You will no longer be due to pay that extra tax once your contact ceases

    So, while you will have more tax deducted because you no longer have salary sacrifice you will have less tax deducted due to no longer having the lease car.
    • Sprinkly
    • By Sprinkly 6th Oct 17, 6:09 PM
    • 27 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Sprinkly
    Update: I challenged NHS fleet with not treating a customer fairly, ending my contract unfairly and not providing clear and concise information surrounding their write off contract. I then challenged my own trust about the unfairness of it all and all have agreed to replace the car but I've had to apply under another contract due to all the financial rises in cars and tax after April 2017. At the end of the day I will have another car in 10 days and my salary sacrifice reinstated and I don't have to go through another insurance declaring the accident for the next 3 years at least. And it's still a better deal than going to an outside dealer particularly for me.
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