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  • FIRST POST
    • Aftertherain
    • By Aftertherain 26th Sep 17, 8:54 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Aftertherain
    Indigo PN rejection but no popla code
    • #1
    • 26th Sep 17, 8:54 PM
    Indigo PN rejection but no popla code 26th Sep 17 at 8:54 PM
    We received an Indigo penalty notice (on windscreen) in a railway car park in August.
    The keeper appealed online to indigo using the blue appeal template in the newbies thread on day 26 and did not reveal the driver.

    Indigo have rejected the appeal, but no mention of a popla code.
    They have offered the penalty/fine at the reduced rate (£60) for 14 days. It doesn’t say what happens after 14 days. They then say:
    “You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure. Should you remain dissatisfied with this decision, you may escalate this to a manager within 28 days of this letter”.

    I think this is in breach of the BPA code of practice (ie they must send a popla code with their first rejection)?
    Not sure what to do now? Should the keeper respond to them? Any advice appreciated…
Page 1
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 26th Sep 17, 8:59 PM
    • 7,386 Posts
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    pappa golf
    • #2
    • 26th Sep 17, 8:59 PM
    • #2
    • 26th Sep 17, 8:59 PM
    correct , send a copy of the letter to the BPA
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 26th Sep 17, 9:01 PM
    • 14,947 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 26th Sep 17, 9:01 PM
    • #3
    • 26th Sep 17, 9:01 PM
    correct , send a copy of the letter to the BPA
    Originally posted by pappa golf
    .... with a very strong complaint. Important you also copy it all in to David Dunford of the DVLA.

    Complaints to the BPA and DVLA can be emailed to:

    aos@britishparking.co.uk

    or (if posting)

    British Parking Association
    Stuart House
    41-43 Perrymount Road
    Haywards Heath
    West Sussex
    RH16 3BN

    and DVLA:

    FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Sep 17, 10:06 PM
    • 50,691 Posts
    • 64,104 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 26th Sep 17, 10:06 PM
    • #4
    • 26th Sep 17, 10:06 PM
    Unless you are in Scotland, that letter deserves a major complaint. Scumbags get worse.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Aftertherain
    • By Aftertherain 26th Sep 17, 10:16 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Aftertherain
    • #5
    • 26th Sep 17, 10:16 PM
    • #5
    • 26th Sep 17, 10:16 PM
    We're in England.

    Thanks for the replies. I will complain to DVLA and BPA as suggested.

    So I take there's no need to respond to Indigo at this point?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Sep 17, 10:37 PM
    • 50,691 Posts
    • 64,104 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 26th Sep 17, 10:37 PM
    • #6
    • 26th Sep 17, 10:37 PM
    I'd wind them up, personally, telling them they've been reported to the BPA and DVLA.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Aftertherain
    • By Aftertherain 9th Oct 17, 5:09 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Aftertherain
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 17, 5:09 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Oct 17, 5:09 PM
    Hi All,

    Just received this reply to my complaint to the BPA.

    “Thank you for your e-mail.

    I can confirm Indigo Park Solutions are members of the BPA and an Operator under the Approved Operator Scheme.

    The British Parking Association (BPA) has campaigned at length for clarity on the Clauses in Railway Byelaws pertaining to parking to be improved. Government committed at a meeting in January to provide clarification but due to various circumstances, some beyond their control, this has not been forthcoming.

    We firmly believe that effective legislation that is not open to interpretation is vital in ensuring a fair environment for both our members and motorists. That is why we have taken the decision to temporarily remove the requirement for our members, who manage parking at railway locations under the Byelaws, to offer an independent appeal via POPLA.

    Motorists who breach the advertised Terms & Conditions and receive a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) but who believe it has been unfairly issued will still be able to appeal to the operator. If however they remain unhappy following an appeal’s rejection the final decision can be made at a Magistrates Court.

    In the meantime we will continue to work with Government to achieve a resolution to Railway Byelaws Clauses.

    In view of the above, Indigo have not breached our Code of Practice and therefore we cannot investigate the matter any further.”

    Very surprised at this?

    Still waiting to hear from DVLA.

    Any advice on next steps appreciated....
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Oct 17, 5:16 PM
    • 16,097 Posts
    • 20,152 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 9th Oct 17, 5:16 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Oct 17, 5:16 PM
    frankly, I am NOT surprised at this because its been unclear right from the start

    those bylaws have been in place for many years and we keep telling people to string it out past the 6 months rule where it "times out"

    so the BPA are telling you what we tell everyone about bylaws cases , that the TOC has the opportunity to issue proceedings through magistrates court and always have been able to (but they dont)

    the real question now is if the PPC have the right to access keeper details under the KADOE contract in order to issue a Parking Charge Notice to the keeper , when the keeper is not liable

    the DfT have failed to sort this out , as the BPA have correctly pointed out , so it seems that the BPA are withdrawing bylaws issues from their POPLA requirement

    it remains to be seen if the DVLA will fudge their answer, or not , or even clarify the situation for all parties

    so unless you get a summons to magistrates court within the 6 months deadline , you ignore the PPC and their DCA dogs (which has always been the case except in the last 5 years popla have been adjudicating these cases - bit it seems no more)

    await a DVLA response and then maybe involve your MP
    Last edited by Redx; 09-10-2017 at 5:34 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 9th Oct 17, 5:26 PM
    • 14,947 Posts
    • 23,473 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 9th Oct 17, 5:26 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Oct 17, 5:26 PM
    If however they remain unhappy following an appeal’s rejection the final decision can be made at a Magistrates Court.
    I’d respond to that email and ask them to confirm whether or not Indigo can refer the case to the Mags Court, and within what timetable. We know the answer (only the TOC can do this and within 6 months), but let’s put the BPA on the record on this.

    Their response above doesn’t clarify matters (and deliberately so, in my view).
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 9th Oct 17, 5:39 PM
    • 7,386 Posts
    • 7,543 Thanks
    pappa golf
    "Motorists who breach the advertised Terms & Conditions and receive a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) "


    PCN for tresspass?

    I can see magistrates putting up with this (not)

    how can trespass be so simplistic as say a parking ticket (of which you have already entered details in machine ) blowing over
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 9th Oct 17, 7:18 PM
    • 40,418 Posts
    • 80,734 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I’d respond to that email and ask them to confirm whether or not Indigo can refer the case to the Mags Court, and within what timetable. We know the answer (only the TOC can do this and within 6 months), but let’s put the BPA on the record on this.

    Their response above doesn’t clarify matters (and deliberately so, in my view).
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    I agree. The BPA should be asked to clarify the statement about the magistrates court.
    How can this be referred to the mags court, by whom (can the motorist do it), in what timescale, and who would get the monies if the court found against the motorist?

    The BPA statement is evasive and implies that the parking company can take someone to a higher court than the small claims, which may frighten motorists into paying.
    This statement in itself should be complained about to the DVLA and MPs.
    To me it is false and unfair representation.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
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    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 9th Oct 17, 7:29 PM
    • 7,386 Posts
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    pappa golf
    I fail to see how indigo can get info from the DVLA , on what grounds? , and would be tempted to ask the DVLA by which method they used , and REASON for applying for data
    • Aftertherain
    • By Aftertherain 10th Oct 17, 8:30 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Aftertherain
    Sorry for the delay in replying but thanks to all who gave advice or comments - it’s greatly appreciated.

    Re Indigo getting keeper data from the DVLA - I’ve never quite understood this, but why do they need to as the keeper appealed so they already know the details?

    I will check though with the DVLA if they obtained details and the reason.

    Also, the PN was for “failure to display” (paid by phone but unbeknown to the driver after PN was issued. Driver had checked signage to see how long they had to pay by phone and couldn’t see anything. On scrutinising the signs at a later date, this information was found on a sign 8 feet up a pole behind parked cars, in 3mm high text -took a tape measure!).

    But failure to display is not a byelaw offence and the driver could not reasonably be expected to see (let alone read) the particular T&C’s that led to the PN? ...Not sure what the TOC would be able to prosecute for? - even if they wanted to...
    • Redx
    • By Redx 10th Oct 17, 8:39 PM
    • 16,097 Posts
    • 20,152 Thanks
    Redx
    exactly the reason why we dont believe INDIGO have the authority , no bylaw was broken , INDIGO dont have any valid reason to contact the DVLA and only the owner can be taken to MAG court due to bylaws in effect and only the TOC can deal with that issue, not INDIGO

    as we said, the DfT have not resolved these issues and its been going on for many years

    the BPA have washed their hands of it and INDIGO have not got a clue about how to manage this fiasco, neither have VCS or APCOA or CARE PARKING when it comes to bylaw issues

    this is why you do your queries but let the 6 months time out from the MAG COURT point of view (not that the TOC will do anything anyway)

    until the DfT or the government sort it out, these problems and questions will remain, so dont beat yourself up about it because you wont be the one to fix it

    if you get an LBC , a summons , or an MCOL, come back

    and report back on what the DVLA say too
    Last edited by Redx; 10-10-2017 at 8:48 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Aftertherain
    • By Aftertherain 10th Oct 17, 8:46 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Aftertherain
    Will do - and thanks again
    • Vanessa1311
    • By Vanessa1311 10th Oct 17, 10:14 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Vanessa1311
    "Failure to display" is indeed a Byelaw offence if the signage says that you must display a valid permit or have paid for a mobile parking session. Byelaw 14.2(ii) states that you have to abide by what the signs say.

    Only the driver could be legally liable for a Byelaw breach. The owner and the keeper could not be found guilty by a Magistrate's Court of a breach of Byelaws caused when someone else was driving. Byelaws 14.1, 14.2 and 14.3 refer to the "person in charge", which means the driver only.

    Indigo has now introduced wheel clamping, ANPR and persuaded the BPA to allow them to suspend the POPLA appeal process. All this has happened very quickly over the last few weeks. This is outrageous.

    Let's assume you get a windscreen ticket at a station car park managed by Indigo. You appeal to Indigo, they reject your appeal of course. You now have nowhere else to turn. Unless you pay the penalty, Indigo may well apply a wheel clamp at some point in future because they have a record of your non payment and station car parks tend to be used multiple times per week by each driver. They will not bother going to a Magistrate's Court, because they will get no financial benefit. Why do that, when they can screw £200+ out of you by using a wheel clamp?

    Let's say you ignore the windscreen ticket. Indigo will get the keeper details from the DVLA and send out a Notice to Keeper letter. By the time this arrives, Indigo will say that it's too late to appeal to them. But they would reject this appeal anyway. As above, if no-one pays up then it's likely the car will be clamped when it is again in the car park.

    How to fight this? You could buy an angle grinder and keep it in your boot. Or you could pay the clamp release fees and then sue them in the small claims court, using the following arguments:
    (1) Indigo Park Solutions UK Ltd has no written authorisation from Govia Thameslink Railway to manage any of GTR's station car parks. All their tickets and clamps are therefore fraudulent.
    (2) The Byelaws state that clamping can only be used when a Byelaw has been breached, not when there is only an alleged breach. Only a Magistrate's Court can prove that a Byelaw breach has actually taken place.
    (3) Clamping on private land was made illegal by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, unless the clamper has "lawful authority". So does Byelaw 14.4.(ii) provide this authority? No it does not. The Byelaws rely on section 219 of the Transport At 2000 as their enabling legislation. Nowhere in this Act does it mention power to create Byelaws relating to clamping. The fact that 14.4(ii) exists is due to it having been written in 2005, when clamping was allowed by virtue of the then existing common law. POFA2012 changed all that and there has been no further enabling legislation since then which would make clamping in station car parks lawful.
    (4) Railway Byelaws make no mention of the car park operator being able to charge a clamp release fee.
    (5) Since Indigo Park Solutions UK Ltd have no written authority to manage any of the GTR station car parks, they can have no "reasonable cause" to request your personal data from the DVLA. Doing that would be a breach of the Data Protection Act. Recent examples of damages for DPA breaches, awarded in the small claims track, run to about £750 per incident.

    Happy parking.
    Last edited by Vanessa1311; 10-10-2017 at 10:22 PM. Reason: typo
    • Aftertherain
    • By Aftertherain 10th Oct 17, 11:19 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Aftertherain
    Thank you for this...Indigo have recently put wheel clamping signs up in the station car park, and I haven’t parked there since, thinking they might clamp the car for the unpaid penalty. Seems I was right to be cautious then.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 10th Oct 17, 11:25 PM
    • 7,386 Posts
    • 7,543 Thanks
    pappa golf
    Thank you for this...Indigo have recently put wheel clamping signs up in the station car park, and I haven’t parked there since, thinking they might clamp the car for the unpaid penalty. Seems I was right to be cautious then.
    Originally posted by Aftertherain
    but have they the authority to clamp ?


    last time I checked , 99% of (private) SIA clamping licences had expired and the course was no longer available ,

    a fine line between a TOC employee and a BPA registered company

    and lets not forget , failure to display a ticket is not and never will be a valid TOC clamping point ,NCP , are you still there ,???
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 10th Oct 17, 11:43 PM
    • 7,386 Posts
    • 7,543 Thanks
    pappa golf
    long read , but worth it for the figure involved , post POFA2012 action http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=64994
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