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  • FIRST POST
    • ParkingBad
    • By ParkingBad 26th Sep 17, 12:51 AM
    • 20Posts
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    ParkingBad
    Elite Management Midlands Ltd Appeal
    • #1
    • 26th Sep 17, 12:51 AM
    Elite Management Midlands Ltd Appeal 26th Sep 17 at 12:51 AM
    Hi guys,

    So I know someone who gets parking charges quite often and always pays up. So i thought i'd give the appeals process a shot on behalf of this individual. Worst case scenario he/she pays up anyway, maybe a bit extra with the added fees if it comes to that.

    So long story short, the PCN was sent by Elite Management Midlands Ltd so I used the template from the newbies thread and sent off the appeal. Got the following response from them.


    "Thank you for your appeal, your comments have been noted accordingly.

    Please note that under the Protection of Freedoms act 2012 (POFA 2012), if the drivers details are not provided, the keeper will remain liable. The vehicle was parked on private land without authorisation from the land owner which is clearly advised on the signage approved by the British Parking Association (BPA).

    If you were not the driver of the vehicle at the time of the contravention, we suggest providing the drivers details so that liability can be transferred

    The outstanding balance of £100 remains due. Without payment or the drivers details, the account will progress and further charges may apply.

    Kind regards


    I'm confused as to where i go from here? i was expecting a POPLA code at the very least but nothing of that nature. Seems as though they just want the drivers details or payment? Obviously not going to provide that but how do i proceed further from here. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks
Page 2
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 29th Oct 17, 9:55 AM
    • 15,961 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    Unless I'm mistaken, i cant mention the points about:

    Parking Charge Notice is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) due to the dates and the wording used
    Have you pedantically compared your NtK against the requirements of PoFA. They must meet those precisely to transfer liability to the keeper. ‘Nearly’ isn’t good enough!

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

    http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/keeper-liability/

    The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact liable for the charge
    There are four important words you’ve missed out there:
    The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who was liable for the charge
    There’s a template appeal available for this in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #3.

    The ANPR appeal point is weak, it has never interested POPLA. You can leave it in to give the PPC more to deal with in their response, but I’d relegate it to the final point.

    In none of your posts have you said if this was an overstay. If it was does it fit within the Grace Periods (note plural) parameters set within the BPA Code of Practice Clause 13? If it does, then that goes into your POPLA appeal too.

    But, having read back over the thread, I’m confused as to who is who here. In your opening post, this is what you said:

    So I know someone who gets parking charges quite often and always pays up. So i thought i'd give the appeals process a shot on behalf of this individual. Worst case scenario he/she pays up anyway, maybe a bit extra with the added fees if it comes to that.
    Now you say this:

    Should i mention something about when passing my details on to debt recovery (post 13 above) and then accepting it was an error?
    Why would they be passing your details to ZZPS if you are dealing with this for someone else? Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 29th Oct 17, 10:02 AM
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    • 24,764 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    So after reading through a few threads and a bit of digging online, I have come to realise that EMM are now members of the IPC, since 14/08/17. Is this why they havent generated my POPLA code?

    PCN contravention date is 25/08/17. They are still down as members of BPA and I've already appealed to them using the BPA template and the response i got from them has been copied into post #1
    Originally posted by ParkingBad
    EMM passed on my details to their debt agency ZZPS. The charged was bumped up to £172.
    No rejection to my appeal and no POPLA code.

    As the PCN i received had BPA basically written all over it i sent off a complaint about the events that have unfolded so far. Received a response stating EMM are no longer members of the BPA.

    I then contacted EMM explaining what BPA said and they responded saying they are BPA members?? They have now even provided me a POPLA code lol.

    EMM also mentioned that the letter i received from the debt agency ZZPS was in error!
    The charge has now gone back to £100. Surely this is a misuse of my personal data?
    Originally posted by ParkingBad
    And there’s more confusion here, as EMM are definitely IPC members since 14/08/17 and given your (or is it your friend’s ?) parking event date of 25/08/17, they shouldn’t have the capacity to issue a POPLA code. Have you checked its authenticity and currency, because they might just have fobbed you off with any old 10-digit number.

    You can check it here:

    http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/popla-code-checker/
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • ParkingBad
    • By ParkingBad 29th Oct 17, 10:26 AM
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    • 5 Thanks
    ParkingBad
    Thanks for your response,

    (The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact liable for the charge)

    I have not added that point to my POPLA i was just explaining that it would be pointless me adding anything about that or keeper liability as they have mentioned POFA in the PCN

    "you are notified under paragraph 9(2)(b) of schedule 4 of the protection of freedoms act 2012 that the driver is required to pay this PCN in full. If you were not the driver at the time, you should tell us the name and current postal address of the driver and pass this notice to them.

    you are warned that if, after 29 days from the date given, the pcn has not been paid in full and we do not know both the name current address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you. This warning is given to you under paragraph 9(2)(f) of schedule 4 of protection of freedoms act 2012 and is subject to our complying with the applicable conditions under schedule 4 of that act"

    Also, just to keep it simple, (guess i should have done this from the start) i will be posting about this PCN as though it is my PCN which is why i mention my details being passed over to ZZPS rather than the person whom has actually received the PCN. Sorry for the confusion.

    I have checked the POPLA code checker and it is all legit.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 29th Oct 17, 10:33 AM
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    Umkomaas
    I think you might be making too many assumptions just because they have ‘mentioned PoFA in the PCN’. Have you checked it line by line against the Act (via the links I gave you).

    PPCs have recently started to sharpen up their act in the context of PoFA 2012 (it’s taken them 5 years to do so, that’s the calibre we're dealing with!) but there are still some ‘holes’ in many NtKs and you need to find any that do exist and exploit them.

    PoFA is a very strong card to play when the identity of the driver isn’t known, otherwise the keeper leaves him/herself wide open.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • ParkingBad
    • By ParkingBad 29th Oct 17, 11:02 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ParkingBad
    pic removed
    Last edited by ParkingBad; 09-11-2017 at 5:29 PM. Reason: removing pic
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 29th Oct 17, 11:24 AM
    • 15,961 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    But that’s only half the NtK, from what I can see by standing on my head to read it! It’s not really thoughtful to expect those giving freely of their time to have to go through contortions to try to help you.

    Does the NtK show the ‘Period of Parking’, from/to?

    Does it state the amount of the parking charge that remains outstanding? Using the words of PoFA, not just showing a £100 figure?

    Does it name ‘the creditor’?

    What was the date of issue of the NtK?

    What was the date of receipt?

    These are all points (some of them critical) that the NtK should be examined against.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • ParkingBad
    • By ParkingBad 29th Oct 17, 12:22 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ParkingBad
    pic removed
    Last edited by ParkingBad; 09-11-2017 at 5:30 PM. Reason: pic removed
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 29th Oct 17, 12:40 PM
    • 15,961 Posts
    • 24,764 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    What you need to build into your appeal is that as there was no permission to park there (Issue Reason: THE VEHICLE WAS PARKED WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE LANDOWNER ON PRIVATE PROPERTY) then there can be no possible parking contract. Without permission to park, then it is a case of trespass which only the landowner can pursue for nominal damages. As the PPC is not the landowner, they cannot pursue for trespass.

    As there is no parking contract, there can be no contractual charge, and therefore what EMM is trying on is an unadulterated PENALTY. Their case is most certainly not saved by PE v Beavis.

    Work that into your POPLA draft. Do you have your own photos of the signage to support the fact that they were ‘Prohibiting’ in nature, therefore no parking contract? You cannot agree to be contractually bound by something that is prohibited.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • ParkingBad
    • By ParkingBad 29th Oct 17, 1:26 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ParkingBad
    Driver has no pictures. I have checked google street view but the area is not clear as it becomes a parking area so unable to go in any further to get a better look. If i have a chance during the week i will pop down but just want to have the POPLA ready to send off. So based on what you have said i am thinking of adding the following:

    Amount demanded is a penalty as there is no parking contract

    Amount demanded is a penalty and is punitive. The authority on this is ParkingEye v Beavis. That case was characterised by clear and ample signage where the motorist had time to read, consider the signage and decide whether to accept or not. In this case the signage was neither clear nor ample, and the motorist had no time to read the signage, let alone consider it, as the charge was applied instantly the vehicle stopped. The signage cannot be read safely from a moving vehicle.

    The British Parking Association Code of Practice (the BPA Code) provides guidance on signage. From Section 18.1: “A driver who uses your private car park with your permission does so under a licence or contract with you. If they park without your permission this will usually be an act of trespass.

    As there was no permission to park there (Issue Reason: THE VEHICLE WAS PARKED WITHOUT PERMISSION OF THE LANDOWNER ON PRIVATE PROPERTY) then there can be no possible parking contract. Without permission to park, then it is a case of trespass which only the landowner can pursue for nominal damages. As the PPC is not the landowner, they cannot pursue for trespass and therefore what EMM is trying on is an unadulterated PENALTY. Their case is most certainly not saved by PE v Beavis.

    The Beavis case confirmed the fact that, if it is a matter of trespass (not breach of any contract), a parking firm has no standing as a non-landowner to pursue even nominal charges.
    • ParkingBad
    • By ParkingBad 9th Nov 17, 5:31 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ParkingBad
    hi guys, i have sent off my popla appeal, i'm now waiting on the operator to provide evidence. Just wondering if they have a deadline?
    Last edited by ParkingBad; 09-11-2017 at 5:39 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Nov 17, 5:37 PM
    • 51,855 Posts
    • 65,491 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    21 days (ish) from when they see your appeal.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ParkingBad
    • By ParkingBad 27th Nov 17, 10:34 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ParkingBad
    Hi guys,

    Just to give an update on the events so far.
    I submitted my appeal on time, actually it was around a few days prior to deadline.
    After sending off my appeal, a few days later I receive a letter from ZZPS who is acting on behalf of EMM stating they wrote to me previously about the PCN and that the debt remains unpaid. They further go on to state that the next course of action is to pass the account on to their solicitors, QDR solicitors Ltd. The letter states i have 7 days to pay from the date of their letter. I didnt even get the letter until after the 7 days had passed from the date the letter was even issued. I just ignored the letter as I was waiting on POPLA and thought it was just a scare tactic from them to avoid having to dispute the appeal. They have also bumped up the total amount due.

    Now around the 3 week mark since sending off my appeal, having checked the popla website it now states "We have received information and evidence from the parking operator about your appeal. We have started assessing your appeal. You do not need to take any action."
    Operator Information and Evidence
    Submitted 01/01/0001

    Do i not get a chance to review the evidence the operator has submitted?
    • ParkingBad
    • By ParkingBad 3rd Dec 17, 7:32 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    ParkingBad
    Hi guys,

    Any help on what I should do next would be very much appreciated.
    Still no further progress on POPLA appeal since last post, still mentions "We have started assessing your appeal. You do not need to take any action."
    It also mentions "We have received your comments and we will begin your assessment in due course" but i have not provided any comments nor received a copy of the evidence the operator has submitted?

    Also, as per previous post the details have now been passed on to the solicitors who have written to say failure to make payment within 14 days may result in the matter being passed on to their litigation department to try and obtain a CCJ.

    I'm confused, why have they not waited for the outcome of the POPLA appeal before pursuing this any further and just being persistent on trying to get me to pay? should they not wait for the POPLA decision first? I'm going to continue to ignore just want to know if this is a safe move or should i be responding to them?

    Thanks in advance
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 3rd Dec 17, 8:02 PM
    • 4,788 Posts
    • 3,153 Thanks
    KeithP
    Why don't you phone PoPLA tomorrow morning and ask them what's going on?
    .
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Dec 17, 8:14 PM
    • 16,937 Posts
    • 21,073 Thanks
    Redx
    and complain to the BPA by email as a BPA CoP breach due to being chased for the debt whilst a popla appeal is ongoing

    attach copies of the pcn and the debt collector letter too , plus the popla appeal code as well. add a brief timeline of events including the date of the popla appeal going in
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • ParkingBad
    • By ParkingBad 3rd Dec 17, 8:22 PM
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    • 5 Thanks
    ParkingBad
    Why don't you phone PoPLA tomorrow morning and ask them what's going on?
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Its only been around 10 days since the status changed to state they are now assessing the appeal so I'll give it a bit more time before chasing it up with them but surely the PPC shouldnt be proceeding any further until a decision has been made.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 3rd Dec 17, 8:57 PM
    • 4,788 Posts
    • 3,153 Thanks
    KeithP
    ...but surely the PPC shouldnt be proceeding any further until a decision has been made.
    Originally posted by ParkingBad
    That's right.

    Condition 22.6 of BPA's CoP says:
    22.6 When you receive a appeal about the issue of a parking charge, you must stop work on processing the charge immediately. You must not increase the charge until you have replied to the appeal.
    It's not clear from the CoP whether they can start the debt recovery process while a PoPLA appeal is in progress. Common sense says they can't.
    In fairness, there is a window after the initial appeal has been rejected, until PoPLA advise the operator that a PoPLA appeal is in progress, when the PPC has no idea whether an appeal to PoPLA has been made or not.
    .
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 4th Dec 17, 11:18 AM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,228 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    If you HAVE NOT had sight of the PPCs parking pack, you MUST complain tot POPLA now, as it appears you have not been given the chance. Did you miss an email maybe? checked spam?
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