Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • barrymung
    • By barrymung 25th Sep 17, 10:33 AM
    • 625Posts
    • 396Thanks
    barrymung
    Leisure World Ticket
    • #1
    • 25th Sep 17, 10:33 AM
    Leisure World Ticket 25th Sep 17 at 10:33 AM
    Hi All,

    Just received a ticket for leisure world in Southampton from PE. The details are as follows and I'd like advice on how to proceed.

    1. The PCN is for parking without typing the reg. number into the machine in the lobby. The driver says that they did this, but it obviously didn't register for whatever reason.

    2. They were there for just over half an hour, dropping off a child at the Odeon and waiting with them until their mates turned up. The child is autistic and doesn't like being left alone.

    3. The cinema ticket got thrown away

    4. The driver is not named on the PCN; the person named on the PCN was at work that day (This can be proved)

    5. I'm led to believe PE have no jurisdiction over the land as it comes under ABP byelaws.

    6. the car park was virtually empty - no losses would have been incurred by the Odeon.

    7. Signage isn't particularly clear. There's a big vinyl banner about 30 foot off the ground as you go in, but it looks like an advertising banner at first glance and is so 'wordy' a driver isn't likely to read it to the end.

    8. The PCN was received 17 days after the 'offence'. (It was issued exactly 14 days after the 'offence')

    Any advice on the best way to appeal this?
    Last edited by barrymung; 25-09-2017 at 10:35 AM.
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 25th Sep 17, 11:48 AM
    • 14,980 Posts
    • 23,531 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 25th Sep 17, 11:48 AM
    • #2
    • 25th Sep 17, 11:48 AM
    1. The PCN is for parking without typing the reg. number into the machine in the lobby. The driver says that they did this, but it obviously didn't register for whatever reason.
    Have you complained to the Odeon and asked them to intervene and get this cancelled? Ask them if the machine was playing up on the day? Ask them if it is prone to unreliability. Try to get some confirmation from them in writing.

    3. The cinema ticket got thrown away
    Not fatal. Do you have a bank/cc statement showing the transaction?

    4. The driver is not named on the PCN; the person named on the PCN was at work that day (This can be proved)
    Useful if the NtK is not PoFA compliant. But for later in the process, not initially.

    5. I'm led to believe PE have no jurisdiction over the land as it comes under ABP byelaws.
    I'm sure that's come up previously. Do a forum search here and on PePiPoo for previous threads.

    6. the car park was virtually empty - no losses would have been incurred by the Odeon.
    Forget that, Beavis all but put paid to it as an argument.

    7. Signage isn't particularly clear. There's a big vinyl banner about 30 foot off the ground as you go in, but it looks like an advertising banner at first glance and is so 'wordy' a driver isn't likely to read it to the end.
    If you're local, get some photographs, plus others of any other on-site signage.

    8. The PCN was received 17 days after the 'offence'. (It was issued exactly 14 days after the 'offence')
    If there is no reference to the Protection of Freedoms Act on the reverse side of the NtK, including a paragraph with starts 'If after 29 days .....' then you've got what is known as a 'Golden Ticket'. Leaving this out more than suggests that PE are fully aware they have no cause to pursue the keeper (either because of late service of the NtK or the fact that bylaws are in place - or both). This fact alone should make it absolutely vital not to identify who the driver was.

    Any advice on the best way to appeal this?
    Just use the basic initial appeal (blue text) from the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1. Normally we advise no additions/alterations as the naive are likely to blow some of their toes off by putting stuff in that screws up their prospects of later appeal opportunities.

    But in your case I would formulate a final paragraph which reminds them that as the service of the NtK was outside of the PoFA timeline (especially if they have omitted the 'If after 29 days ....' paragraph) and the fact that the site is covered by bylaws, they have no case against you, the vehicle's registered keeper, and the charge should be dropped.

    State that if, having pointed this out to them, they continue to pursue you, you will have no hesitation in reporting them to David Dunford of the DVLA, the ICO and the BPA as a precursor to a claim against them for the incorrect use of your personal details in breach of the principles of the Data Protection Act.

    Hopefully this will kill it at source for you.

    Let us know if your NtK has the 'If after 29 days ...' paragraph missing please.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 25-09-2017 at 11:53 AM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • barrymung
    • By barrymung 25th Sep 17, 2:07 PM
    • 625 Posts
    • 396 Thanks
    barrymung
    • #3
    • 25th Sep 17, 2:07 PM
    • #3
    • 25th Sep 17, 2:07 PM
    1. Not yet. I didn't want to do anything until I'd sought advice from you guys.
    3. Nope. Paid in cash.
    4. OK, will save that info for later
    5. Will do a search
    6. OK, will take that on board
    7. Will try and get some pics
    8. No reference to PoFA as far as I can see. No reference to 29 days either. The front of the ticket DOES make reference to a reduced price if paid up to 14 days after the ticket was issued, which is probably a bit unfair as when it arrived it only allows 11 days.

    What's a 'Golden ticket'?


    Many thanks for your advice!
    • barrymung
    • By barrymung 25th Sep 17, 2:11 PM
    • 625 Posts
    • 396 Thanks
    barrymung
    • #4
    • 25th Sep 17, 2:11 PM
    • #4
    • 25th Sep 17, 2:11 PM
    Looked a bit closer at the blurb on the back and it makes reference to being able to appeal to PoPLA, but doesn't give a timescale for this.

    It DOES make reference to appeals to PE must be made within 28 days of the date on the PCN, which would be 25 days in my case.

    So, my letter to the Odeon, presumably this should just be a complaint as a long standing customer, rather than providing all the technical details of why the PCN shouldn't stand in this particular case? I don't want to bamboozle the poor manager who may, or may not be au fait with the legalities.
    Last edited by barrymung; 25-09-2017 at 2:19 PM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 25th Sep 17, 2:33 PM
    • 14,980 Posts
    • 23,531 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 25th Sep 17, 2:33 PM
    • #5
    • 25th Sep 17, 2:33 PM
    What's a 'Golden ticket'?
    Forum terminology for a 'Get out of jail for free card'. Maintain your position as the vehicle's keeper, driver unknown, and you will easily beat this charge.

    It DOES make reference to appeals to PE must be made within 28 days of the date on the PCN, which would be 25 days in my case.
    Make sure you send in your initial appeal by their deadline. The worst you will get is a rejection with a POPLA code (with which you will win this), but there's a reasonable chance that PE will uphold your initial appeal.

    So, my letter to the Odeon, presumably this should just be a complaint as a long standing customer,
    Yes, tell it from the heart, but don't reveal who the driver was, especially in writing just in case the letter/email is forwarded to PE for their observations. No need for any of the technical stuff with him/her.

    If you are known to/recognised by the manager as a regular customer, a face-to-face might be better. Make sure the car's VRM is input this time!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 25th Sep 17, 3:50 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,143 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 25th Sep 17, 3:50 PM
    • #6
    • 25th Sep 17, 3:50 PM
    Looked a bit closer at the blurb on the back
    If you've looked and not seen a section on POFA/29 days to keeper liability, you have a Golden ticket!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • barrymung
    • By barrymung 26th Sep 17, 10:39 AM
    • 625 Posts
    • 396 Thanks
    barrymung
    • #7
    • 26th Sep 17, 10:39 AM
    • #7
    • 26th Sep 17, 10:39 AM
    Thanks for the advice, guys. It is genuinely appreciated and I'll of course report back on the outcome.

    PE would obviously maintain that the charge is a fair reflection of their costs incurred etc. and the ticket constitutes an invoice, which has got me thinking. If successful, could I issue an invoice to PE in return, covering my costs dealing with this claim, such as letter writing, postage, time spent on forums etc.? I might just do this once the ticket is out of the way as I'll be interested to see what argument they come up with to wiggle out of it.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Sep 17, 12:40 PM
    • 50,736 Posts
    • 64,143 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 26th Sep 17, 12:40 PM
    • #8
    • 26th Sep 17, 12:40 PM
    People have tried but with no luck because PE would say their actions were reasonable.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • barrymung
    • By barrymung 26th Sep 17, 1:05 PM
    • 625 Posts
    • 396 Thanks
    barrymung
    • #9
    • 26th Sep 17, 1:05 PM
    • #9
    • 26th Sep 17, 1:05 PM
    People have tried but with no luck because PE would say their actions were reasonable.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    If I have the energy I still might fire off a letter on the basis they know that the land is controlled by ABP (As evidenced by previous appeals) thus they *knew* their actions were unreasonable.

    Letter has gone off to Odeon, appealing to their better nature. Appeal to PE will go tomorrow sometime.

    I'll keep you all posted.
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 26th Sep 17, 1:28 PM
    • 584 Posts
    • 1,518 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    Hi Barry

    ABP Byelaws is a red herring for Leisure World PCNs.

    ABP's map of the Port of Southampton shows that Leisure World is situated outside of the port's boundaries and based on an evidence pack previously received from PE, the landholder at Leisure World is Rank Group Gaming Division Limited, not ABP.
    • barrymung
    • By barrymung 26th Sep 17, 1:50 PM
    • 625 Posts
    • 396 Thanks
    barrymung
    Hi Barry

    ABP Byelaws is a red herring for Leisure World PCNs.

    ABP's map of the Port of Southampton shows that Leisure World is situated outside of the port's boundaries and based on an evidence pack previously received from PE, the landholder at Leisure World is Rank Group Gaming Division Limited, not ABP.
    Originally posted by Edna Basher
    There a reference elsewhere on the forum which says: "The car park in Southampton Leisure World is within the area governed by the ABP Southampton Byelaws, meaning PE cannot operate Keeper Liability as determined by a recent POPLA win."

    Is this not correct? Is it worth including this, even though it may be factually incorrect? The ABP map is dubious to say the least. Is it worth spending the £4 with the land registry to find out who holds title to the land?
    • barrymung
    • By barrymung 26th Sep 17, 2:11 PM
    • 625 Posts
    • 396 Thanks
    barrymung
    OK, so this is my appeal to PE:

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    A ticket was purchased to watch the film “Dunkirk” at the time of the event. Can you confirm, by way of a system log file or whatever, that the in-building terminal was functional at the time of the event?

    The signage at the entrance to the car park is a vinyl banner around 30 to 40ft up on the wall of the building and resembles an advertising banner. It is very “wordy” and there is little opportunity for a driver to stop and read it before entering the car park.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge. Your PCN does not make reference to the “Protection of Freedoms Act” - this renders the issued PCN in question, defective.

    In addition your PCN arrived 17 days after the event. As it was issued exactly 14 days after the event, it could never have arrived with me within the 14 day time frame specified by PoPLA (It was sent via the post).

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    If you continue to pursue me, I will have no hesitation in reporting you to David Dunford of the DVLA, the ICO and the BPA as a precursor to a claim against you for the incorrect use of my personal details in breach of the principles of the Data Protection Act. I will also consider a claim against yourselves for my costs and expenses incurred.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    Mung
    Does that look OK? I have not included the bits about possibly being ABP land as it seems it might not be. I have also omitted the bit about being able to prove beyond doubt that I couldn't possibly have been in charge of the car at the time. I cant say who was driving at the time - I wasn't there!
    Last edited by barrymung; 26-09-2017 at 2:17 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 26th Sep 17, 2:22 PM
    • 3,967 Posts
    • 2,219 Thanks
    KeithP
    This map shows Leisureworld to be outside ABP's area.
    .
    • Redx
    • By Redx 26th Sep 17, 2:32 PM
    • 16,110 Posts
    • 20,176 Thanks
    Redx
    the 14 day period is defined in the law named POFA2012, nothing to do with popla

    Should you obtain can be changed to Should you have obtained (past tense)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • barrymung
    • By barrymung 26th Sep 17, 2:56 PM
    • 625 Posts
    • 396 Thanks
    barrymung
    Thanks all!

    Any more feedback before I send it
    • barrymung
    • By barrymung 28th Sep 17, 9:08 AM
    • 625 Posts
    • 396 Thanks
    barrymung
    OK, appeals have gone off to both Odeon and ParkingEye.

    I'll report back on the outcome.

    Thanks for your help, guys.
    • barrymung
    • By barrymung 10th Oct 17, 12:37 PM
    • 625 Posts
    • 396 Thanks
    barrymung
    SUCCESS!!

    Email received from ParkingEye with a letter attached to say they are dropping the matter.

    Unfortunately, they don't say *why* they are dropping it. It might be because Leisure World have asked them to drop it or it could be due to one or more of the points raised in my appeal to them. Leisure World never responded themselves. Sorry, I don't have any more helpful information than that.

    A massive THANK YOU to everyone who contributed to this thread. I will make a donation to MNDA as a gesture of thanks.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

2,321Posts Today

7,260Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • RT @LordsEconCom: On Tuesday Martin Lewis, Hannah Morrish & Shakira Martin gave evidence to the Cttee. Read the full transcript here: https?

  • Ta ta for now. Half term's starting, so I'm exchanging my MoneySavingExpert hat for one that says Daddy in big letters. See you in a week.

  • RT @thismorning: Can @MartinSLewis' deals save YOU cash? ???? https://t.co/igbHCwzeiN

  • Follow Martin