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  • FIRST POST
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 22nd Sep 17, 5:22 AM
    • 348Posts
    • 350Thanks
    claxtome
    fluttering ticket going to court
    • #1
    • 22nd Sep 17, 5:22 AM
    fluttering ticket going to court 22nd Sep 17 at 5:22 AM
    This is a classic 'fluttering ticket' case.
    Paid for parking in a Private Pay and Display car park and displayed ticket.
    Ticket has somehow flipped over so didn't show details.
    The number on the back of the ticket doesn't appear to correlate to the number on the front.

    Sneakily no PCN on car it was sent through post.

    PPC is an IPC member so no POPLA appeal route.

    Timeline:
    Received PCN/NTK 7 days after day in question.
    Appealed to NTK.
    Got ignored and received a chase letter about a month later
    Received LBC/LBCCC about a month later
    Sent off 1st reply 10 days later
    Received roboclaim reply
    Sent off 2nd reply 10 days after that
    Then received County Court claim from Northampton. (usual roboclaim particulars)
    I extended the defence submittal date to 28 days online.


    All the redacted documents are in this dropbox folder:
    https://db.tt/ZpiVevD8Dd

    [Update]
    Defence now posted to MCOL and emailed to Claimant.
    Hearing will be end of March.
    WS and evidence bundle due by first week in December.

    Note: This is not my first battle against Private Parking firms (third) and have done as much research as I can, time permitting, prior to setting up this thread.
    I have always had good advice on this forum that I appreciate.
    Please can you help me fight another.

    Thanks for reading.
    Last edited by claxtome; 08-11-2017 at 9:05 PM.
Page 5
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 3rd Oct 17, 5:56 AM
    • 348 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    claxtome
    Thanks for all the help so far.

    Posted Defence today - well within the 33 day deadline.
    Watch this space for the next step...
    Last edited by claxtome; 03-10-2017 at 10:17 AM.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 11th Oct 17, 2:18 PM
    • 348 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    claxtome
    A quick update in case anyone is interested->
    Had a reply in the post this week saying they had received my defence and sent to claimant. Just have to wait to see what Claimant submits.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 24th Oct 17, 1:06 PM
    • 348 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    claxtome
    A quick update in case anyone is interested->
    I just sent off my Directions Questionnaire to MCOL via email this morning.
    (Downloaded blank from; Filled out as per NEWBIES thread; printed it out; scanned it and then produced a pdf of the signed copy that I emailed to MCOL email address)

    Note: I am delaying emailing the same form to the Claimant until last minute in the hope they forget to fill theirs out
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 24th Oct 17, 1:53 PM
    • 1,185 Posts
    • 1,228 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    You can file by email to the claimant assuming they have one for service of docs. Saves a stamp.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 8th Nov 17, 9:01 PM
    • 348 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    claxtome
    Received in the post today the Court Letter telling me that my court hearing will be at the end of March next year at my chosen court location. Once again they want the evidence and statements from both parties early (Just under a month from now)

    Means I have just under a month to write my WS and bundle of evidence. I know what I need to do as will be my second court appearance. I will then, closer to the court date, prepare a Skeleton.

    Will post my draft WS when ready and will upload to my Dropbox account the evidence I will rely on.

    This post is for information only for those who are interested.

    Also posting off a Land Registry SIM search to see if I can prove who the landowner is in case it helps my case.
    Last edited by claxtome; 08-11-2017 at 9:04 PM.
    • Molts
    • By Molts 9th Nov 17, 8:57 PM
    • 69 Posts
    • 164 Thanks
    Molts
    Keep the updates coming Claxtome!

    Anyone even remotely interested in fighting this scam would be mad not to be following this compelling thread.

    If anything it shows step by step how to build a defence from scratch with, I must add, superb support from the regulars who give up their time for free. They make what few hairs I have left on the back of my neck stand up at times.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 22nd Nov 17, 9:09 PM
    • 348 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    claxtome
    The Land Registry SIM search returned 4 titles (3 titles are Freehold and 1 Leasehold).

    Can someone tell me how I can use a title number to find out who the owner of that title is please?
    (From my research it looks like I need to send off another form to the land registry, 1 per title, at the cost of £3 each)

    Thanks
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 22nd Nov 17, 10:57 PM
    • 750 Posts
    • 1,393 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Yes indeedy
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 23rd Nov 17, 3:39 PM
    • 1,757 Posts
    • 2,873 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    claxtome, yes please keep posting updates even when it's just to say something's been done, because it provides a useful timeline for us to refer people to (lots get anxious when they don't hear anything for a few weeks so it helps to see, for instance, how long it took between sending in the DQ and then hearing back from your local court).
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 23rd Nov 17, 3:40 PM
    • 1,757 Posts
    • 2,873 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    The Land Registry SIM search returned 4 titles (3 titles are Freehold and 1 Leasehold).

    Can someone tell me how I can use a title number to find out who the owner of that title is please?
    (From my research it looks like I need to send off another form to the land registry, 1 per title, at the cost of £3 each)

    Thanks
    Originally posted by claxtome
    yes, now you use each title number to search the one(s) you want now you've identified there are different parcels of land under different ownership.
    A leaseholder of land will have the right to contract out to a parking company so I'd search them all if there's any doubt.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 23rd Nov 17, 3:50 PM
    • 348 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    claxtome
    Thanks for your replies Johnersh and Loadofchildren123

    BTW an update ->
    I have been a bit busy with other things to prepare my WS.
    I have started it and hope to post my first draft by the weekend.

    I have a question for the forum ->
    What is the purpose of tracking down the landowner for the 4 titles I know of?
    (Only thing I can think for it is to appeal to the better nature of the landowner to get the court case cancelled)

    If people reply with yes pursue it I will send these off after I have submitted my WS to court -> due first week in Dec. (Will make the cost of all this being £4 + 4 x £3 = total £16)
    Last edited by claxtome; 23-11-2017 at 4:05 PM.
    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 23rd Nov 17, 4:28 PM
    • 251 Posts
    • 436 Thanks
    bluetoffee1878
    It’s well worth a punt to complain to the land owner in my opinion.

    I was helping a friend a little while back with a UKCPS claim, this had got to DQ stage ‘parking out of a bay’ if I remember correctly.

    Anyway even at that late stage I believe it took a couple of complaints to the land owner but they instructed the PPC to cancel and withdraw the claim.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 23rd Nov 17, 5:47 PM
    • 15,962 Posts
    • 24,764 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Even if the landowner doesn’t go as far as telling the PPC to cancel, he might respond (best in writing) to you that he is unhappy that they are pursuing you, which will be useful to add to your evidence.

    Even better would be him confirming to you that he doesn’t have a contract with the PPC to operate on his land (or maybe the contract is no longer in place).

    All potentially useful stuff. The flip side of this coin is of course you may draw a complete blank and you’re £16 out of pocket. Your call.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 23rd Nov 17, 5:51 PM
    • 3,878 Posts
    • 5,465 Thanks
    Half_way
    Even if the landowner doesn’t go as far as telling the PPC to cancel, he might respond (best in writing) to you that he is unhappy that they are pursuing you, which will be useful to add to your evidence.
    I would add to that, if possible and for clarity that the landowner is unhappy that his/her agents are pursuing this through court and does not want the courts to be used for this purpose
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 24th Nov 17, 9:21 AM
    • 1,757 Posts
    • 2,873 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    For me the main purpose would be to show no landowner authority (if their contract is with the wrong entity)
    But it's always worth going to the landowner to complain
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 1st Dec 17, 5:35 AM
    • 348 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    claxtome
    Thanks for your replies, very useful, about questioning whether to pursue further the 4 titles.
    I have decided to continue this after I have submitted my WS early next week.
    Anything I find out I will ensure it is sent to the other side as soon as received to give them plenty of time to digest it. (Assuming I want to do this).

    An update - I received their WS and evidence earlier this week. (A week earlier than necessary so maybe got them rattled and wanted to see if it rattled me). I have uploaded a redacted version of it in this folder->
    https://db.tt/ZpiVevD8Dd

    Also new in that folder is a redacted version of the expired Advertising Consent for signage I could find for the car park. (Only planning application I could find on local council website)
    Last edited by claxtome; 01-12-2017 at 5:52 AM.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 1st Dec 17, 5:43 AM
    • 348 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    claxtome
    Draft Witness Statement V1
    I would appreciate any comments about my draft witness statement please->

    My defence that I submitted is in post #74

    I, XXX, of YYY will say as follows:

    1. I am the Defendant in this matter. I am an unrepresented consumer who is not experienced at attending county court. In this statement I will refer to the documents contained in exhibit marked XXX1, by page number, and Claimant’s Accredited Trade Organisation (ATA) (International Parking Community) Accredited Operator Scheme Code of Practice, by section numbers.

    2. On the XXX May 2017 I parked in XXX Car Park, walked to the nearest pay and display machine, purchased a ticket for the day and, confirm as matter of fact, I displayed it face up on the dashboard of the car. I am careful with parking tickets to ensure they are displayed correctly after a previous event a long time ago where a ticket at the end of the day was found in the foot-well. This was a council car park in the Lake District and when I appealed with a copy of the ticket the Local Council quashed the parking fine.

    3. At the end of the day I removed the ticket from the dashboard and drove off. No parking charge notice was attached to the windscreen so there was no indication that anything was untoward.

    4. Just over a week later upon returning home I discover an envelope containing a postal Parking Charge Notice from <ES>; as evidenced by the Claimant. This was a surprise to me as would have expected to have seen a parking charge notice attached to the windscreen if an alleged offence on the day had occurred. Fortunately, by looking in my car bin, I found the ticket from the relevant day. A postal PCN for the scenario made me wonder if the parking firm is hoping the purchased parking ticket would have been thrown away.

    5. The photo in the Parking Charge Notice letter clearly shows the ticket I purchased on the day displayed upside down on the dashboard. The photos of the car show a sunny day but don’t show how windy the big open car park was on the day. See page XX to see pictures of where the car is parked in the car park.

    6. The photo in the Parking Charge Notice letter also shows a serial number on the reverse of the ticket which, considering the Parking Charge Notice wasn’t given on the day, allows plenty of time for the ticket to be traced to the valid ticket purchased on the day particularly as you have to enter the Registration of the Car into the ticket machine and is printed on the ticket.

    7. The Claimant’s evidence of a specimen sign (Contract) states “A valid ticket must be purchased to park on this site and be displayed clearly in your front windscreen”. This from the Claimant’s own evidence was clearly adhered to. Any breach (which, for avoidance of doubt, is denied) was de minimis.

    8. I have produced a map of the car park, page XX, which shows the entrance A where I entered the car park, position B where I parked and the location of the ticket machine used as C on the map.

    9. On the XX June 2017 I wrote to the Claimant explaining the circumstances on the day and why I felt I was not liable for the parking charge, and a copy of my appeal is on pages XX and XX of XXX1 which included a copy of the ticket purchased and displayed on the day.

    10. The appeal was not acknowledged or answered and on the XX June 2017 I received a demand with increased amount owing with no explanation for the increased amount and this letter threatened me with further debt recovery (page XX of XXX1). No figure for additional charges was agreed, or communicated to me, nor could it have formed part of the ‘alleged’ contract because no such indemnity costs were quantified on the Claimant’s signs. Terms cannot be bolted on later with figures plucked out of thin air, as if they were incorporated into the small print, when they were not. (See specimen sign on page XX of Claimant’s Witness Statement).

    11. On the XX July 2017 I then received a Letter Before Claim (page XX of XXX1). Once again the sum of money demanded had increased, with no explanation. I responded (page XX of XXX1) on 10th July 2017, asking for more details and a copy of all documents purporting to the matter.

    12. On the XX August 2017 I received a reply (pages XX and XX of XXX1) which unfortunately did not answer my questions.

    13. On the XX August 2017 I responded to the Claimant’s solicitors (page XX of XXX1) once again asking for further details. With this letter I included a copy of the ticket purchased and displayed on the day. This letter was ignored.

    14. I then received a Claim Form on XX September 2017. The Particulars of Claim set out in the Claim Form do not meet the requirements of Practice Direction 16 7.5 as there is nothing which specifies what the terms of the alleged contract were, or how they were breached. The Particulars are not “clear and concise” as is required by CPR 16.4 1(a). There is no information regarding why the charge arose, what the original charge was, what the alleged contract was nor anything which could be considered a fair exchange of information. It just states “parking charges” which does not give any indication of on what basis the claim is brought. The claimant also failed to provide a copy of their written contract as per Practice Direction 16 7.3(1) and Practice Direction 7C 1.4(3A).

    15. I dispute that the Claimant has incurred £50 Solicitors costs to pursue an alleged £100 debt, the costs of which are in any case not recoverable. The claimant has described the charge of £50 as ‘legal representative’s costs’ not ‘contractual costs’ CPR 31.14 does not permit these to be recoverable in the Small Claims Court
    The Claimant has at no time provided an explanation of how the sum claimed has been calculated, the conduct that gave rise to it or how the amount has climbed from £100 to the £160 now sought.

    16. Under Regulation 30 of the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007 (amended) A parking operator needs to have Advertising Consent for signs displayed in the car park. The only relevant Advertising Planning Consent found for the car park in question has now lapsed (pages XX-YY of XX1). I therefore hold to strict proof that they have Claimant has advertising consent for signage.

    17. On the day in question I had every intention to pay for parking, and I did so, and I genuinely thought I had complied with the terms of parking in the car park (and was justified in that belief). In Jolley v Carmel Ltd [2000] 2 –EGLR -154, it was held that a party who makes reasonable endeavours and takes reasonable steps to comply with contractual terms, should not be penalised for breach outside of their control.

    I believe that the facts stated in this statement is true
    Last edited by claxtome; 01-12-2017 at 5:54 AM.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 1st Dec 17, 11:43 AM
    • 1,757 Posts
    • 2,873 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    I'd repeat the de minimis principle in para 17 and perhaps add that there must either have been a gust of wind when you closed the door or one of the windows may have been slightly open and it may have flipped over when you were away from the car, and this small human error comes under the de minimis principle, particularly where the ticket had a serial/reference number on the back.


    Is it worth also putting in a paragraph about how fluttering tickets are routinely accepted as a valid defence to council parking tickets and whilst contractual principles are not applied to such tickets, it is indicative of the fact that circumstances out of your control, and where the driver has clearly paid for the parking are deemed to be a good reason for tickets to be cancelled.


    Also, you should describe the fact that the ticket was a flimsy piece of paper with no sticky part to it so that it could be fixed in place on the dash or windscreen.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 1st Dec 17, 12:26 PM
    • 348 Posts
    • 350 Thanks
    claxtome
    Witness Statement V2
    Thank you once again LoadsOfChildren for helping me out with a reply to one of my posts.
    Have you had a look at their witness statement btw - link in post #96
    Much better than previous ones I have seen but mostly just refuting my defence though.

    Here is Version 2 of my WS with extra paragraph 5 and paragraphs 18-20 are amended/new->

    I, XXX, of YYY will say as follows:

    1. I am the Defendant in this matter. I am an unrepresented consumer who is not experienced at attending county court. In this statement I will refer to the documents contained in exhibit marked XXX1, by page number, and Claimant’s Accredited Trade Organisation (ATA) (International Parking Community) Accredited Operator Scheme Code of Practice, by section numbers.

    2. On the XXX May 2017 I parked in XXX Car Park, walked to the nearest pay and display machine, purchased a ticket for the day and, confirm as matter of fact, I displayed it face up on the dashboard of the car. I am careful with parking tickets to ensure they are displayed correctly after a previous event a long time ago where a ticket at the end of the day was found in the foot-well. This was a council car park in the Lake District and when I appealed with a copy of the ticket the Local Council quashed the parking fine.

    3. At the end of the day I removed the ticket from the dashboard and drove off. No parking charge notice was attached to the windscreen so there was no indication that anything was untoward.

    4. Just over a week later upon returning home I discover an envelope containing a postal Parking Charge Notice from <ES>; as evidenced by the Claimant. This was a surprise to me as would have expected to have seen a parking charge notice attached to the windscreen if an alleged offence on the day had occurred. Fortunately, by looking in my car bin, I found the ticket from the relevant day. A postal PCN for the scenario made me wonder if the parking firm is hoping the purchased parking ticket would have been thrown away.

    5. Looking closely at the ticket you can see it is made of a flimsy piece of paper with no sticky part to it so that it could be fixed in place on the dashboard or windscreen. I would be interested to know how many Parking Charge Notices for similar circumstance occur for this car park.

    6. The photo in the Parking Charge Notice letter clearly shows the ticket I purchased on the day displayed upside down on the dashboard. The photos of the car show a sunny day but don’t show how windy the big open car park was on the day. See page XX to see pictures of where the car is parked in the car park.

    7. The photo in the Parking Charge Notice letter also shows a serial number on the reverse of the ticket which, considering the Parking Charge Notice wasn’t given on the day, allows plenty of time for the ticket to be traced to the valid ticket purchased on the day particularly as you have to enter the Registration of the Car into the ticket machine and is printed on the ticket.

    8. The Claimant’s evidence of a specimen sign (Contract) states “A valid ticket must be purchased to park on this site and be displayed clearly in your front windscreen”. This from the Claimant’s own evidence was clearly adhered to. Any breach (which, for avoidance of doubt, is denied) was de minimis.

    9. I have produced a map of the car park, page XX, which shows the entrance A where I entered the car park, position B where I parked and the location of the ticket machine used as C on the map.

    10. On the XX June 2017 I wrote to the Claimant explaining the circumstances on the day and why I felt I was not liable for the parking charge, and a copy of my appeal is on pages XX and XX of XXX1 which included a copy of the ticket purchased and displayed on the day.

    11. The appeal was not acknowledged or answered and on the XX June 2017 I received a demand with increased amount owing with no explanation for the increased amount and this letter threatened me with further debt recovery (page XX of XXX1). No figure for additional charges was agreed, or communicated to me, nor could it have formed part of the ‘alleged’ contract because no such indemnity costs were quantified on the Claimant’s signs. Terms cannot be bolted on later with figures plucked out of thin air, as if they were incorporated into the small print, when they were not. (See specimen sign on page XX of Claimant’s Witness Statement).

    12. On the XX July 2017 I then received a Letter Before Claim (page XX of XXX1). Once again the sum of money demanded had increased, with no explanation. I responded (page XX of XXX1) on 10th July 2017, asking for more details and a copy of all documents purporting to the matter.

    13. On the XX August 2017 I received a reply (pages XX and XX of XXX1) which unfortunately did not answer my questions.

    14. On the XX August 2017 I responded to the Claimant’s solicitors (page XX of XXX1) once again asking for further details. With this letter I included a copy of the ticket purchased and displayed on the day. This letter was ignored.

    15. I then received a Claim Form on XX September 2017 (page xx of XXX1). The Particulars of Claim set out in the Claim Form do not meet the requirements of Practice Direction 16 7.5 as there is nothing which specifies what the terms of the alleged contract were, or how they were breached. The Particulars are not “clear and concise” as is required by CPR 16.4 1(a). There is no information regarding why the charge arose, what the original charge was, what the alleged contract was nor anything which could be considered a fair exchange of information. It just states “parking charges” which does not give any indication of on what basis the claim is brought. The claimant also failed to provide a copy of their written contract as per Practice Direction 16 7.3(1) and Practice Direction 7C 1.4(3A).

    16. I dispute that the Claimant has incurred £50 Solicitors costs to pursue an alleged £100 debt, the costs of which are in any case not recoverable. The claimant has described the charge of £50 as ‘legal representative’s costs’ not ‘contractual costs’ CPR 31.14 does not permit these to be recoverable in the Small Claims Court
    The Claimant has at no time provided an explanation of how the sum claimed has been calculated, the conduct that gave rise to it or how the amount has climbed from £100 to the £160 now sought.

    17. Under Regulation 30 of the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007 (amended) A parking operator needs to have Advertising Consent for signs displayed in the car park. The only relevant Advertising Planning Consent found for the car park in question has now lapsed (pages XX-YY of XX1). I therefore hold to strict proof that they have Claimant has advertising consent for signage.

    18. On the day in question I had every intention to pay for parking, and I did so, and I genuinely thought I had complied with the terms of parking in the car park (and was justified in that belief). There must either have been a gust of wind when you closed the door or one of the windows may have been slightly open and it may have flipped over when you were away from the car, and this small human error comes under the de minimis principle, particularly where the ticket had a serial/reference number on the back.

    19. In Jolley v Carmel Ltd [2000] 2 –EGLR -154, it was held that a party who makes reasonable endeavours and takes reasonable steps to comply with contractual terms, should not be penalised for breach outside of their control.

    20. Fluttering tickets are routinely accepted as a valid defence to council parking tickets and whilst contractual principles are not applied to such tickets, it is indicative of the fact that circumstances out of your control, and where the driver has clearly paid for the parking are deemed to be a good reason for tickets to be cancelled.

    I believe that the facts stated in this statement is true
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 1st Dec 17, 3:50 PM
    • 1,757 Posts
    • 2,873 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    You need to change the "you/your" to "I/my" in the new bits.


    In the bundle of documents you need to include something to back up the fluttering ticket/council information, not sure where to find this but it will be out there somewhere, probably on this forum.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
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