Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Alan_Brown
    • By Alan_Brown 19th Sep 17, 8:14 PM
    • 196Posts
    • 268Thanks
    Alan_Brown
    Solar phase II
    • #1
    • 19th Sep 17, 8:14 PM
    Solar phase II 19th Sep 17 at 8:14 PM
    We currently have a 4kw East/West installation (2kw each side) and we've just ordered a further 1.8kw (6 x 300w panels) for a shallow incline roof on a workshop building in the garden.

    The main inverter is 3.8kw and the new inverter will be 1.5kw, so a combined 5.3 Kw system. As we're over the limit for our single phase supply we had to apply for a G83 application with the local DNO. That came back with approval and zero cost, which was great.

    The new addition won't qualify for FITS or export payments, which seems a little unfair (especially the export) but as we currently use all of our generation I am not too worried. The cost including installation is £2500, which I thought was a great price. I can't wait for it to be fitted
Page 1
    • ASavvyBuyer
    • By ASavvyBuyer 19th Sep 17, 8:46 PM
    • 577 Posts
    • 1,491 Thanks
    ASavvyBuyer
    • #2
    • 19th Sep 17, 8:46 PM
    • #2
    • 19th Sep 17, 8:46 PM
    The new addition won't qualify for FITS or export payments, which seems a little unfair (especially the export) but as we currently use all of our generation I am not too worried. The cost including installation is £2500, which I thought was a great price. I can't wait for it to be fitted
    Originally posted by Alan_Brown
    As it is a complete new system, using a seperate inverter, why won't it qualify for the current FIT & Export rates ? I understood that you don't get FIT & Export if you extend a system, but that you should if it is a new seperate system.
    Rhondda Cynon Taf, 4kWp, W roof, 30° pitch, 16 x 8.33 Eternity 250w E+10 panels, Solar Edge SE4000-16A Inverter + P300 Optimisers & REUK Diverter
    + Toshiba RAS-10G2KVP-E Ultra High Efficiency Air Conditioner/Heat Pump
    • pinnks
    • By pinnks 19th Sep 17, 9:00 PM
    • 536 Posts
    • 1,192 Thanks
    pinnks
    • #3
    • 19th Sep 17, 9:00 PM
    • #3
    • 19th Sep 17, 9:00 PM
    That's an interesting question and one worth researching. When I put in system 2 we went for the completely separate option (panels, inverter, TGM) and got a second dose of under 4kWp FiT. However, all of the paperwork referred (I think) to the extension of generating capacity at an already registered property.

    Whatever the answer a quick skim of the easy-to-understand rules will tell you what it is
    Wiltshire - 5.25kWp
    3.5kWp: 14 x Phono Solar 250 Onyx, Sunny Boy 4000TL, WSW 40 degrees, June 2013
    1.75kWp: 7 x Phono Solar 250 Onyx, Sunny Boy 1600TL, SSE 45 degrees, March 2014
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 20th Sep 17, 6:49 AM
    • 6,135 Posts
    • 10,258 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    • #4
    • 20th Sep 17, 6:49 AM
    • #4
    • 20th Sep 17, 6:49 AM
    As it is a complete new system, using a seperate inverter, why won't it qualify for the current FIT & Export rates ? I understood that you don't get FIT & Export if you extend a system, but that you should if it is a new seperate system.
    Originally posted by ASavvyBuyer
    Hiya. They class extending a system as any additional PV on the same MPAN. So once a FiT is registered against the property, even if one panel, any more is an extension.

    All of the rules regarding PV and FiTs are misleading. When I had an additional system installed the rules changed the day before about the EPC having to be obtained before the FiT application. You wouldn't think this would matter as the OFGEM rules state that an extension is treated as a totally separate install, but their rules also mean that an extension uses the date of the original FiT application (my two FiT's are the same number, one ends in -1 and the other in -2).

    It's almost as if the rules are rigged against PV.

    And yes, none of this makes sense, we want more low carbon generation, so why exclude extensions from FiT's, and why on earth exclude them from the existing export deal.

    This is one of the reasons why I always suggest going as big as possible on day one, not only are multiple installs more expensive than a single install, but the FiT rules are rigged against you changing your mind when you realise how great PV is.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Alan_Brown
    • By Alan_Brown 20th Sep 17, 11:52 AM
    • 196 Posts
    • 268 Thanks
    Alan_Brown
    • #5
    • 20th Sep 17, 11:52 AM
    • #5
    • 20th Sep 17, 11:52 AM
    I've got agree with you Mart, it's almost as though the government (or rather their corporate paymasters) don't want ordinary people to generate their own power.

    However, with the fall in solar panel costs, it's not such a big deal to lose the FITs and not having the export payment just gives me an even greater incentive to use as much of my generation as possible.

    I was discussing batteries with the solar company, but just like when I originally installed 4kw instead of 5kw (I did get a quote for this workshop roof), funds are tight and I'm stretching our finances a little to just get the panels.

    Maybe this time next year I'll be able to get a battery fitted, though I'll be stung for 20% VAT instead of 5%. Just like I've been stung this time for a separate inverter and no FITS .
    • theboylard
    • By theboylard 20th Sep 17, 4:46 PM
    • 1,132 Posts
    • 2,765 Thanks
    theboylard
    • #6
    • 20th Sep 17, 4:46 PM
    • #6
    • 20th Sep 17, 4:46 PM
    Not sure if I've misunderstood your post Alan:

    Surely if the new install is all on the same single invoice (and why wouldn't it be?), then you should only be paying 5% VAT.
    Yes to battery purchase if bought on its own, but have a word with NigeWick on here, he's got a good installer who understands the system and invoicing!!
    4kWp, SSE, 16 x 250w EcoFuture BoB with retro-fitted SolarEdge P300 optimisers & SE3500 Inverter, in occasionally sunny Corby, Northants.
    • Alan_Brown
    • By Alan_Brown 21st Sep 17, 4:13 PM
    • 196 Posts
    • 268 Thanks
    Alan_Brown
    • #7
    • 21st Sep 17, 4:13 PM
    • #7
    • 21st Sep 17, 4:13 PM
    Not sure if I've misunderstood your post Alan:

    Surely if the new install is all on the same single invoice (and why wouldn't it be?), then you should only be paying 5% VAT.
    Yes to battery purchase if bought on its own, but have a word with NigeWick on here, he's got a good installer who understands the system and invoicing!!
    Originally posted by theboylard
    The solar panels, etc. will be priced at 5% VAT, but I can only buy the battery at 5% VAT if it's installed at the same time as solar panels (that's the rule). If I buy a battery at a later time, I will be charged full VAT.
    I can't afford to fit both at the same time unfortunately.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 21st Sep 17, 4:19 PM
    • 6,135 Posts
    • 10,258 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    • #8
    • 21st Sep 17, 4:19 PM
    • #8
    • 21st Sep 17, 4:19 PM
    The solar panels, etc. will be priced at 5% VAT, but I can only buy the battery at 5% VAT if it's installed at the same time as solar panels (that's the rule). If I buy a battery at a later time, I will be charged full VAT.
    I can't afford to fit both at the same time unfortunately.
    Originally posted by Alan_Brown
    Not suggesting anything dodgy, just wondering how 'tight' the rules are.

    So, could you deliberately leave one panel out, then at a later date, buy and have that panel installed, when you get a battery?

    Just had a thought, back in a mo!
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Alan_Brown
    • By Alan_Brown 21st Sep 17, 4:25 PM
    • 196 Posts
    • 268 Thanks
    Alan_Brown
    • #9
    • 21st Sep 17, 4:25 PM
    • #9
    • 21st Sep 17, 4:25 PM
    Not suggesting anything dodgy, just wondering how 'tight' the rules are.

    So, could you deliberately leave one panel out, then at a later date, buy and have that panel installed, when you get a battery?

    Just had a thought, back in a mo!
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    LOL, maybe
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 21st Sep 17, 4:27 PM
    • 6,135 Posts
    • 10,258 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Just had a thought, back in a mo!
    Originally posted by Martyn1981
    I'm backkkkk

    Right here's an oldish article:

    Residential storage secures tax break when sold with solar panels

    The Solar Trade Association (STA) today (3 August 2017) announced that it has secured a 5% rate of VAT on battery storage instead of the standard 20% currently applied. However, in order for HMRC to allow the lower rate to apply the battery has to be sold and installed alongside solar, which already benefits from the lower rate.

    In a notification to the STA seen by Solar Power Portal, HMRC explained that the scope of the reduced rate set out in the VAT Act 1994 is “very tightly drawn” and that it could only be extended to storage if “there is a single indivisible supply of a battery for the storage of power generated from the solar panels”.

    “This is on the understanding the battery is linked to the solar panels and ancillary to the supply of the solar panels. We would expect the aim to be one of maximising use of on-site solar power consumption,” the note states.

    It adds that if batteries are sold separately and retrofitted to existing solar systems, this would be seen as a “standard rated supply” and therefore does not qualify for the tax break.
    So the question is, what's the definition of sold alongside solar? Is adding a panel enough, or does it have to be a full system, say panel, inverter and wiring?

    Just wondering out loud, but interesting.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • theboylard
    • By theboylard 21st Sep 17, 5:07 PM
    • 1,132 Posts
    • 2,765 Thanks
    theboylard
    A poster on this forum is having a couple of cheap panels and cheapest inverter installed along with his shiny new Tesla PWII - I believe this will be cheaper than paying the dreaded on a standalone battery install.

    btw, it's not me!!!
    4kWp, SSE, 16 x 250w EcoFuture BoB with retro-fitted SolarEdge P300 optimisers & SE3500 Inverter, in occasionally sunny Corby, Northants.
    • warrenb
    • By warrenb 22nd Sep 17, 3:47 PM
    • 123 Posts
    • 351 Thanks
    warrenb
    I am doing exactly this, I can get 1.5kw on the garage roof and will be buying the battery at the same time to get it at 5%. Think about it, you get a 1.5kw system for around 2k, the battery is around 4k, with 5%, with 20% it is nearer 5k, so almost getting the 1.5 system for half price. Saying that I won't be going for a 14kw system as I have never used 14kw in a day so don't see the reason to have such a large battery.
    Last edited by warrenb; 22-09-2017 at 3:53 PM.
    Living in supposedly sunny Kent
    14*285 JA Solar Percium Panels
    Solis 4kw inverter
    ESE facing with a 40 degree slope
    • Cardew
    • By Cardew 22nd Sep 17, 4:24 PM
    • 27,103 Posts
    • 13,219 Thanks
    Cardew
    We currently have a 4kw East/West installation (2kw each side) and we've just ordered a further 1.8kw (6 x 300w panels) for a shallow incline roof on a workshop building in the garden.

    The main inverter is 3.8kw and the new inverter will be 1.5kw, so a combined 5.3 Kw system. As we're over the limit for our single phase supply we had to apply for a G83 application with the local DNO. That came back with approval and zero cost, which was great.

    The new addition won't qualify for FITS or export payments, which seems a little unfair (especially the export) but as we currently use all of our generation I am not too worried. The cost including installation is £2500, which I thought was a great price. I can't wait for it to be fitted
    Originally posted by Alan_Brown
    What annual generation do you expect from the 1.8kWp new installation - around 1,500kWh??

    Do you feel the potential savings justify a £2,500 investment?
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 23rd Sep 17, 8:18 AM
    • 6,135 Posts
    • 10,258 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Saying that I won't be going for a 14kw system as I have never used 14kw in a day so don't see the reason to have such a large battery.
    Originally posted by warrenb
    Hiya. That's how I've done most of my battery pondering, suggesting 4kWh useable (around 5kWh Li-ion) would do the job.

    But, I'm having second thoughts now, for a number of reasons, though none are entirely compelling:

    1. The bigger the batt, the more you can avoid full charging, and discharging, which will extend the life of the battery.

    2. Bigger batt, allows for longer viability as it loses capacity, so if 20%+ overcapacity at the start, then if down 20% after 10yrs, it's still going to meet needs.

    3. When I'll need it the most, shoulder months, with plenty of export, but still high import, Feb, Mch, Apr & Sept, Oct coincide with when I'll be using the small ASHP. A battery would allow for more ASHP use without import. EG 2kWh per day, could mean 4hrs of heating, outside of generation, and 6-10kWh of heat.

    4. The larger batt would allow cross day storage in the 6 best months, allowing for 100% PV supply on days which are extremely poor. Not really a concern normally, as these days are so rare, and going larger just isn't economical on this basis alone, but as part of this list, perhaps.

    5. Future EV use. On average in the summer I have 20kWh of generation, reducing import from 7.5kWh to 2.5kWh per day. After allowing for domestic use of the battery I'd still have 10kWh+ of spare charge, or around 30-40miles of motoring per day (which we don't do). So a larger batt may help to future proof for a PV, though the savings here would be smaller as presumably the alternative would be a cheaper night rate for charging.

    6. Bigger batt, especially the PWII is cheaper per kWh.

    As I say, none of these arguments are convincing, and I'm not sure all of them together are, but worth a ponder I think, if the decision on battery size wasn't clear cut.

    [I'll cross post this on the domestic battery thread as it might be useful, or not! M.]
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Alan_Brown
    • By Alan_Brown 3rd Oct 17, 1:41 PM
    • 196 Posts
    • 268 Thanks
    Alan_Brown
    What annual generation do you expect from the 1.8kWp new installation - around 1,500kWh??

    Do you feel the potential savings justify a £2,500 investment?
    Originally posted by Cardew
    I'm not overly concerned about the 'investment' side of the installation. However, to answer your question, I did an online check and the average cost of clean electricity at the moment is 15.37p per kw/h.

    Taking your figure of 1500kwh pa x .1537 = £230.55 per year

    £2500 / 230.55 = 10.84 years until the array pays for itself.

    The improvement to our home's carbon footprint doesn't have a monetary value, but does have great value to our family. The reduced exposure to fluctuating energy prices is also something that we will value as a family.

    My wife an I are looking to become more self-reliant and self-sufficient. Energy security is right up there on the list.
    • Alan_Brown
    • By Alan_Brown 3rd Oct 17, 1:45 PM
    • 196 Posts
    • 268 Thanks
    Alan_Brown
    The panels are being installed today, we're chuffed to bits to see our plans moving along

    I should update my signature like many on here (and Navitron do).

    2kw West, 3.8kw East.
    Half an acre allotment (WIP)
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

5,700Posts Today

7,599Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • I realised I forgot in my links earlier. 1. Help to Buy ISAs, how they work and best buys...? https://t.co/BSCNPeqiVF

  • RT @whatdawndid: Thanks to uncle @MartinSLewis I just received £200 back, just like that from the student loan company! Turns out that the?

  • RT @LaraLewington: Shocked and saddened by Cheggers news. Working with him on It?s A Knockout was my 1st job in telly when I was just 19. H?

  • Follow Martin