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  • FIRST POST
    • Rheebs25
    • By Rheebs25 17th Sep 17, 8:58 AM
    • 39Posts
    • 6Thanks
    Rheebs25
    Gladstones Letter Before Claim
    • #1
    • 17th Sep 17, 8:58 AM
    Gladstones Letter Before Claim 17th Sep 17 at 8:58 AM
    hxxps://ibb.co/bZWMm5

    Letter i received from gladstones chasing.
Page 3
    • Rheebs25
    • By Rheebs25 22nd Nov 17, 7:43 AM
    • 39 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rheebs25
    I cant seem to edit this, it wont let me do anything or delete/redact it?
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 22nd Nov 17, 8:03 AM
    • 6,476 Posts
    • 8,306 Thanks
    beamerguy
    I cant seem to edit this, it wont let me do anything or delete/redact it?
    Originally posted by Rheebs25
    start again on this one from your PC and upload giving
    a different URL

    Then edit your post #39
    Last edited by beamerguy; 22-11-2017 at 8:06 AM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Rheebs25
    • By Rheebs25 22nd Nov 17, 8:16 AM
    • 39 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rheebs25
    start again on this one from your PC and upload giving
    a different URL

    Then edit your post #39
    Originally posted by beamerguy
    Thank you beamerguy.

    I have replaced it without the pcn on it.

    Hope i can get some advice on what to so now.

    Thanks
    • Rheebs25
    • By Rheebs25 22nd Nov 17, 3:07 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rheebs25
    I think I would start more forcefully, and never thank them for a court threat!:
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Hello coupon-mad,

    Before i respond to their letter, i dont really have £160 to pay for a parking fine i have been given in November 2016! Also there is no evidence that i over stayed, just a photo from CPM that ANY one can do through their website.

    I am at loss of what to do now. Hope you can help me like you did before.

    Thanks
    • Rheebs25
    • By Rheebs25 26th Nov 17, 8:13 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rheebs25
    Pardon? Seriously?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I have had some advice recently on what to do in a response letter. Just wondering if anyone else has had a letter similar (see post #39) to mine please let me know if you responded and if you had been given court papers?

    Would appreciate the help as i need to respond asap.

    Many thanks
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 26th Nov 17, 10:11 PM
    • 747 Posts
    • 1,387 Thanks
    Johnersh
    It's bull. How can it be disproportionate for them to provide you with documents relevant to their proposed action? Have they not heard of email if that is their concern

    What they ask to do is to simply race off and start proceedings and only then may they provide the information you ask for. Seems odd and a waste of your/court time.

    Sound fair?
    • Rheebs25
    • By Rheebs25 27th Nov 17, 8:42 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rheebs25
    It's bull. How can it be disproportionate for them to provide you with documents relevant to their proposed action? Have they not heard of email if that is their concern

    What they ask to do is to simply race off and start proceedings and only then may they provide the information you ask for. Seems odd and a waste of your/court time.

    Sound fair?
    Originally posted by Johnersh
    Hello,

    Yes, i agree with you. In this day and age if they could provide the proof then email would be much easier.

    I am going to respond, just want to make sure i respond in the correct way.

    What would happen if i respond? Is that when court papers arrive etc?

    Thanks fof responding
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 28th Nov 17, 9:43 AM
    • 747 Posts
    • 1,387 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Yes it needs a formal letter of response.

    Do bear in mind that it is for the claimant to set out their case, so it's not for you to provide full details as they ask. Your role is to respond. Their template asking for information from you is, inmho inappropriate.

    The protocol for debt claims now requires them to provide contracts (so that will include copies of the signage) at this stage. Google it. There's also lots on the forum on this.

    You may wish to consider setting up a throwaway email purely for this claim and to ensure that any emails are not lost amongst the personal stuff.
    • Rheebs25
    • By Rheebs25 28th Nov 17, 7:50 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rheebs25
    Yes it needs a formal letter of response.

    Do bear in mind that it is for the claimant to set out their case, so it's not for you to provide full details as they ask. Your role is to respond. Their template asking for information from you is, inmho inappropriate.

    The protocol for debt claims now requires them to provide contracts (so that will include copies of the signage) at this stage. Google it. There's also lots on the forum on this.

    You may wish to consider setting up a throwaway email purely for this claim and to ensure that any emails are not lost amongst the personal stuff.
    Originally posted by Johnersh
    Hello

    Thankyou so much for the help.

    Is there a template like i had before in my previous posts that i could tweak to make my own?

    Also do i respond to the points they raised, and also the fact that they didnt really answer any of my points that i raised.

    IF i do receive a court letter what am i to do then? Would the amount increase further? I just cant believe this is over a PCN from November 2016!!!

    Thanks
    • Rheebs25
    • By Rheebs25 30th Nov 17, 5:25 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rheebs25
    Hello

    I am about to reply to their letter.

    Can some one help me with a formal template, as i dont have a legal bone in my body so i am at a loss at what to write.

    I had help with this before when i sent them a letter in response to their LBC, which was very useful.

    I am worried that they will try and take me to court for this amount and i dont know how i am to defend myself if they do.

    Has anyone got this far before?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 30th Nov 17, 5:50 PM
    • 4,759 Posts
    • 3,111 Thanks
    KeithP
    There are LBC response letters in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread.

    You found them before.

    Find them again and select the one that refers to the new, post 1st October, Debt Protocols.

    Adjust it to remind them about the new protocols now in force, since they sent their LBC, and ensure it asks for all the information they are required to send you.

    If your recent letter from them expects a response in 14 days, then that is just one indication that they are not complying with the latest protocol.
    .
    • Rheebs25
    • By Rheebs25 30th Nov 17, 5:57 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rheebs25
    There are LBC response letters in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread.

    You found them before.

    Find them again and select the one that refers to the new, post 1st October, Debt Protocols.

    Adjust it to remind them about the new protocols now in force, since they sent their LBC, and ensure it asks for all the information they are required to send you.

    If your recent letter from them expects a response in 14 days, then that is just one indication that they are not complying with the latest protocol.
    Originally posted by KeithP

    Thankyou

    I will check #2 out asap.

    I am so glad i found this forum.
    • Rheebs25
    • By Rheebs25 30th Nov 17, 6:44 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rheebs25
    I have found this in a link for robo claims....is it pointless or useful?



    n the County Court Business Centre Claim Number: ____________
    BETWEEN :
    UK Car Park Management Ltd
    (Claimant)
    And
    _____________
    (Defendant)

    Defence Statement


    Introduction
    1. I am ________, the defendant in this matter. My address for service is____________
    2. This is my statement of truth and my defence.
    3. As an unrepresented litigant-in-person I seek the Court's permission to amend and supplement thisdefence as may be required upon disclosure of the claimant's case.
    4. For the avoidance of doubt on the relevant date I was the registered keeper of a _______, registerednumber ______, I can neither confirm or deny who was driving on the day as it is some time since the event.
    5. It is believed that it will be a matter of common ground that the purported debt arose as the result ofthe issue of a parking charge notice in relation to an alleged breach of the terms and conditions by the driver of the above vehicle when it was parked at____________ in November 2016.
    Purported Basis of Claim
    6. Further based upon the scant and deficient details contained in the Particulars of Claim and correspondence, it appears to be the claimant's case that:
    a. There was a contract formed by the defendant and the claimant on November 2016.
    b. There was an agreement to pay a sum or parking charge.
    c. That there were Terms and Conditions prominently displayed around the site including theboundaries of the parking space to be controlled.
    d. That in addition to the Parking charge there was an agreement to pay additional but unspecifiedadditional sums.
    e. The claimant company fully complied with their obligations within the terms of Schedule 4 of theProtection of Freedoms Act 2012.
    f. The claimant company fully complied with their obligations within the British Parking Association Codeof Practice of which they were member at the time.
    g. Further that the defendant has not paid the alleged debt.
    Rebuttal of Claim
    7. It is denied that:
    a. A contract was formed
    b. There was an agreement to pay a parking charge.
    c. That there were Terms and Conditions prominently displayed around the site and that the areaallegedly under the control of the Claimant was unequivocal.
    d. That in addition to the Parking charge there was an agreement to pay additional and unspecifiedadditional sums.
    e. The claimant company fully complied with their obligations within the terms of Schedule 4 of theProtection of Freedoms Act 2012.
    f. The claimant company fully complied with their obligations within the British Parking Association Codeof Practice of which they were member at the time. g. That I am liable for the purported debt.
    8. It is further denied that I owe any debt to the claimant or that any debt is in fact owed or that any debtexists or could ever exist or has ever existed. That in any event the claimant has failed to comply with the requirements of the Civil Procedure Rules and that their claim is both unfounded and vexatious.
    9. The claimant is put to the strictest proof of their assertions.
    My Defence
    My defence will rely principally upon the following points:
    10. That the signs erected on site are incapable of forming the basis of a contract and indeed make itclear that that is not the case. Further it is trite law that a term that is forbidding cannot also constitute an offer. It is therefore denied that any contract was formed or was capable of being formed.
    11. That the area the Claimant says was within their control wasn't clear as the boundaries wereunclear and open to misinterpretation. The BPA Code of Practice says on this point:
    B4.1 If vehicles are parked under a contract, you may take parking control and enforcement action only when the contract entitles you to. This includes issuing parking tickets. The contract terms must be included on a sign British Parking Association Code of Practice at each entry point to the site, and on other signs visible throughout the area concerned.
    12. Should the claimant rely on the case of ParkingEye v Beavis, I wish to point out that there is a testof good faith.
    Para 205: “The requirement of good faith in this context is one of fair and open dealing. Openness requires that the terms should be expressed fully, clearly and legibly, containing no concealed pitfalls or traps. Appropriate prominence should be given to terms which might operate disadvantageously to the customer.”
    13. Underlining that is Section 18.3 of the BPA Code of Practice which gives clear instructions as to theplacing, visibility and clarity of any signs that are used to form contracts. It says:
    18.3 You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand.
    14. The defendant refutes that there were clear and visible signs, with Terms that formed the basis of acontact and which met the specifications above.
    15. Section 7 of the British Parking Association Code of Practice outlines to operators some of thecommon law principles of operating on someone else's land as a licensee. One such item is written authority - a written contract - to be there. It defines the elements of this written authority as follows:
    7.1 If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have thewritten authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent) before you can start operating on the land in question. The authorisation must give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of the management and enforcement of the site that you are responsible for.
    In particular, it must say that the landowner requires you to keep to the Code of Practice and that either you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges, through the courts if necessary or that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges and, with their permission, through the courts if necessary.
    7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensurethat they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.
    7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:
    a) the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined.
    b) any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including anyrestrictions on hours of operation.
    c) any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parkingcontrol and enforcement
    d) who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs.
    e) the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.
    16. If in the alternative it is the claimant's case that his claim is founded in trespass (which is in anyevent denied) then in a car park setting any damages in trespass can only be assessed based on a calculation of the proportion of income lost based on the time of the alleged occupation. Any sum sought could therefore only be minimal and de-minimis.
    17. That the amount demanded is therefore excessive and unconscionable and especially so whencompared to the level of Penalty Charge Notice issued by the local Council which is set at £50 or £25 if paid within 14 days.
    18. In the alternative, the attention of the court is drawn to para. 4(5) Schedule 4 Protection ofFreedoms Act 2012 which sets out that the maximum amount recoverable from the registered keeper, where the keeper liability provisions have been properly invoked (which is expressly denied in this case) is that amount specified in the Notice to Keeper (whether issued in accordance with paras 8(2)c; 8(2)d, 9(2)c or 9(2)d of the Act).
    19. In view of all the foregoing the court is invited to strike the matter out of its own motion.
    20. The claimant is put to strict proof of the assertions they have made or may make in their fuller claim.
    This statement is true to the best of my knowledge and belief.
    Signed ______________________
    Dated 30-11-2017
    Last edited by Rheebs25; 30-11-2017 at 6:45 PM. Reason: Delete my name
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 30th Nov 17, 6:46 PM
    • 4,759 Posts
    • 3,111 Thanks
    KeithP
    I thought you were looking for a response letter??
    .
    • Redx
    • By Redx 30th Nov 17, 6:53 PM
    • 16,923 Posts
    • 21,048 Thanks
    Redx
    the letter posted above clearly mentions it is a DEFENCE statement , used when defending an MCOL

    you want a rebuttal letter , a response letter to an LBC

    examples are in post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Rheebs25
    • By Rheebs25 30th Nov 17, 7:07 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rheebs25
    I thought you were looking for a response letter??
    Originally posted by KeithP
    I am still trying to get used to finding the right ones, there are so many links to read etc.

    I will keep searching and come back. It will be a second response letter to their initial LBC letter they sent, see post #39 in my thread to see what they wrote back.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 30th Nov 17, 7:31 PM
    • 4,759 Posts
    • 3,111 Thanks
    KeithP
    I am still trying to get used to finding the right ones, there are so many links to read etc.

    I will keep searching and come back. It will be a second response letter to their initial LBC letter they sent, see post #39 in my thread to see what they wrote back.
    Originally posted by Rheebs25
    Yes, saw all that.

    It's really not difficult.

    Find post #2 of the NEWBIES thread.
    You've done it before - do it again.

    The fifth line of that post starts "If you have a Letter Before Claim..."

    The eighth line says "and Daniel san's one from October 2017, which references the RECENT change in the pre-action Protocol:" followed by a link.

    That's the one you want.

    Now, adjust that.

    For example, the first line of your letter should probably say something like:
    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of [some date in September 2017] and your follow up letter of [whenever on November 2017].
    .
    • Rheebs25
    • By Rheebs25 30th Nov 17, 9:35 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rheebs25
    Yes, saw all that.

    It's really not difficult.

    Find post #2 of the NEWBIES thread.
    You've done it before - do it again.

    The fifth line of that post starts "If you have a Letter Before Claim..."

    The eighth line says "and Daniel san's one from October 2017, which references the RECENT change in the pre-action Protocol:" followed by a link.

    That's the one you want.

    Now, adjust that.

    For example, the first line of your letter should probably say something like:
    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of [some date in September 2017] and your follow up letter of [whenever on November 2017].
    Originally posted by KeithP
    THANK YOU.

    I apologise for being that frustrating so and so again. I think may have found the one you were talking about.

    See below: (tell me again if it is not appropriate to my situation)


    Dear Sirs,

    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of 12th September 2017, and your follow up letter of 21st November 2017.


    Your letter still contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon.

    Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.

    Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.

    As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your client, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

    Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.

    I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. an explanation of the cause of action
    2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long for, how the monies being claimed specifically arose and have been calculated to the amount being demanded
    5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.
    6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
    7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1 “establishing yourself as the creditor”
    8. a plan showing where any signs were clearly displayed upon entry of the car park
    9. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
    11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form


    If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) – Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.

    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.


    Regards,
    • Rheebs25
    • By Rheebs25 4th Dec 17, 7:10 PM
    • 39 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Rheebs25
    Yes, saw all that.

    It's really not difficult.

    Find post #2 of the NEWBIES thread.
    You've done it before - do it again.

    The fifth line of that post starts "If you have a Letter Before Claim..."

    The eighth line says "and Daniel san's one from October 2017, which references the RECENT change in the pre-action Protocol:" followed by a link.

    That's the one you want.

    Now, adjust that.

    For example, the first line of your letter should probably say something like:
    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of [some date in September 2017] and your follow up letter of [whenever on November 2017].
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Hi,

    I have posted the response letter to them. What is to be expected next? What happens if they send me court summons still for the outstanding balance? I don't want a CCJ going against me.


    Thanks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 4th Dec 17, 7:16 PM
    • 16,923 Posts
    • 21,048 Thanks
    Redx
    there will definitely NOT be a court summons because this is a civil matter, not a criminal matter

    there may be an MCOL arriving from Northampton CCBC , which has taken over the small claims court duties (except for paper based claims that come from Salford)

    yes they are likely to issue an MCOL because they encourage their PPC to do so

    if this does happen, you fight it

    if you lose in court , you pay up , IN FULL, within one month

    that way there will be no CCJ on your credit record, the matter is settled , over and done with
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
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